Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, LLandryistheshiz said:

This is what folks are missing. Ron established the culture, and chase is cemented as the catalyst and team leader. 
 

As great as Deshaun is, that’s shooting your team and efforts in the foot. You have to find another package if he’s the goal.

The DLine is why we were so freaking good on defense last year. All four starters are different and extremely valuable. Chase becoming a captain as a rookie over those other 3 is amazing.

 

Breaking that group up, and suggesting trading your captain, is absurd team building.

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

So, get everyone buying in to the team first attitude and then show them that one player is more important than the team?

 

It's crazy talk. People are so QB starved they miss the forest through the trees. 

 

QB is extremely important... But the guys we're talking about: Dak, Stafford, Watson, Carr, Wentz, etc, etc, etc., haven't won anything. We are overrating what we have on roster and mortgaging the future with a huge trade (Watson is a huge trade, Stafford for a single 1 and maybe a 3 isn't that bad).

[Koolblue13]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

It's crazy talk. People are so QB starved they miss the forest through the trees. 

 

QB is extremely important... But the guys we're talking about: Dak, Stafford, Watson, Carr, Wentz, etc, etc, etc., haven't won anything. We are overrating what we have on roster and mortgaging the future with a huge trade (Watson is a huge trade, Stafford for a single 1 and maybe a 3 isn't that bad).

And using guys like Rivers or Brady who were free agents as examples. Or Brees who was not thought of as a "Brees" at the time and traded for a second. 

 

I could see throwing in a Settle who's vastly over rated by our fanbase, but there's no value in that.

 

I can't say that the #19 pick has the same value to us, as Allen does to anyone else either. 

[Est.1974]

Trading key players can’t be an option. Breaks trust, will undo some strong work from this season. Don’t see it happening, but I guess you just never know.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Trading key players can’t be an option. Breaks trust, will undo some strong work from this season. Don’t see it happening, but I guess you just never know.

It's like having a yard sale to buy a Ferrari. 

 

The worth of the player no one is asking to trade for. just doesn't have the value like it does to your own team.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

18 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I keep Payne over Allen if we're choosing one, but tht's like choosing my right hand over my left. Both are integral. And yes, I believe OL and DL are places where you should invest something in the draft to every year so long as you get a quality opportunity to do so... and there is almost always a quality opportunity. 

 

You and me both. Building the trenches integral.

 

I won't complain about either approach ... going hard after a QB or choosing to keep building up the strengths of the team while we wait for the "right" QB opportunity.

 

BUT a rookie QB (IF YOU HIT) gives you a 5 year window to be creative with the rest of your roster structuring. We are in an interesting INVERTED situation where we built our team so well through the draft that we have a ton of guys on rookie deals which allows you to go spend big on a QB.

BUT what if you nail a rookie QB within that inverted structure? Suddenly your "window" for winning is no longer 2-3 years with this defensive roster makeup. It's a long-term build and structure that could let you flourish for a long period of time. You'll be able to pay Scherff, Allen, Payne, and McLaurin comfortably while also bringing in FA talent in the short-term, and by the time you would have to pay Lance, most of your current roster'd studs will have been through a good chunk of their big contracts, giving you the space to re-work those deals and get the QB under a LTD.

 

I think Lance fits that the best. But he can't be the 2021 starter. Maybe with Lance in the fold you feel okay with Heinecke and Allen. But I suspect the team would rather go into the draft without having to mortgage the future to get a QB. But Lance + Allen + Heinecke means you're likely committing no more than $10m to QBs for this year and the next 4 years with Smith off the books.

 

I also understand the flip side to this strategy is you are getting "too cute" and could risk wasting this window while missing on a young QB.

10 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Trading key players can’t be an option. Breaks trust, will undo some strong work from this season. Don’t see it happening, but I guess you just never know.

 

Agree on Allen/Payne. Not so much on Settle or Matt I.

 

But put me in the camp that would be cool with trading for Stafford with pick #19 and a 3rd. It would allow us to keep current FAs and sign a WR and LB, and still have picks to add some talent while not mortgaging the future.

Other than that, though, I'm not really up for mortgaging anything for Watson, Rodgers, Ryan, etc.

 

If this staff is really high on the potential for Sam Darnold, and that's their Plan A, then count me in there too. In this FO I trust, in the end. And I think they will be smart about this.

Edited January 26, 2021 by JamesMadisonSkins

[JamesMadisonSkins]

Contrarian take here too, if you all don't mind.

 

We definitely have a window. But we had the best QB performance in 14 years of this franchise from Heinecke in that game against Tampa and it wasn't enough. Granted, TB is now in the super bowl. So it definitely makes you think we are close. But we still didn't beat TB with that insane performance, and we saw how the team struggled down the stretch.

 

We need talent on offense. Our defense is CLOSE but we could certainly upgrade there as well.

 

Mortgaging the future because we are "in a window" right now isn't exactly the best approach. Especially since, while I think we are CLOSE, we still have some work to do in addition to QB. We are a QB away from consistently being 10-11 win team and having a shot every year, but we need to build a team that can win a Super Bowl. TEAM.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Prediction: Stafford goes to Washington for the 19th pick in the draft and a third-rounder. The Panthers will be aggressive, but they may not want to give up the eighth pick, which they could use to draft a quarterback. The Steelers and Saints, at No. 24 and No. 28, are likely too far back in the draft order, and both have salary cap issues that could keep them from adding Stafford’s contract.

Stafford will have a voice in the process, and one option that could be desirable is the Colts, who have a playoff-ready roster and an opening after Philip Rivers’s retirement. They are a couple of spots behind Washington in the first-round draft order at No. 21. One team that Stafford might want to avoid is New England, given the struggles the Lions had under Matt Patricia.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Contrarian take here too, if you all don't mind.

 

We definitely have a window. But we had the best QB performance in 14 years of this franchise from Heinecke in that game against Tampa and it wasn't enough. Granted, TB is now in the super bowl. So it definitely makes you think we are close. But we still didn't beat TB with that insane performance, and we saw how the team struggled down the stretch.

 

We need talent on offense. Our defense is CLOSE but we could certainly upgrade there as well.

 

Mortgaging the future because we are "in a window" right now isn't exactly the best approach. Especially since, while I think we are CLOSE, we still have some work to do in addition to QB. We are a QB away from consistently being 10-11 win team and having a shot every year, but we need to build a team that can win a Super Bowl. TEAM.

I am in full agreement. We aren’t as talented as we think we are. But we are more than in the right direction and we have excellent building blocks.

[Darrell Green Fan]

8 hours ago, XxSpearheadxX said:

If all positions on the field carried the same weight you would be right. However I believe a true above average quality QB can improve a team the way an all pro at another position does. 

 

 

 

 

Yeah it baffles me that people still undervalue the QB position.  Mind boggling actually. This team with Mathew Stafford and no other improvements what so ever will be dramatically better than last year's team.  Fill a few holes and we are a contender, it's just that simple.

 

Imagine a QB stable of Mathew Stafford, Heineke and Kyle Allen.  They could actually win with any of the 3, when has that ever happened here?   Considering the QBs this team has trotted out for the last generation it's mind boggling that fans still can't see the correlation between QB play and wins/losses. This problem has been here since Joe Theisman. Find a damned QB and then we have a chance.  

[Skinsinparadise]

what a house, next time my kid wants to throw the football around with me, I am not saying no 😀

 

 

The end in Detroit is near for Matthew and Kelly Stafford, and Monday they relisted their massive suburban Detroit lake house for $6,500,000. Stafford and the Lions have agreed to part ways, and soon there will be no need for the 7,700 sq. ft. compound on Long Lake in Bloomfield Hills. You’ve seen the house featured on thousands of Kelly’s Instagram Stories, but there’s a good chance you’ve never seen everything this incredible house has to offer.

There’s a 625 bottle wine cellar that you might not be aware of. There’s the indoor basketball court, featuring the original Pistons court that was used at the Silverdome. It used to get major play on Kelly’s social media before the kids came along. And there’s a really good chance you’ve never seen the bar with the pool table.

 

Now for the bad news: The nearest Starbucks, according to Google Maps, is a 14-mile drive. Whole Foods is seven miles. Lions headquarters is 26 miles. Treetops Golf Resort is 216 miles.

Look, if you buy this house, you make your own coffee. You hire your own bartenders to come serve at parties. You hire chefs. You hire pool guys to take care of the largest infinity pool in Michigan. Let’s say you’re the person who won the $1 billion Mega Millions at a Kroger store just 18 miles from the Stafford house. You might want to head on over and ask Matthew and Kelly how soon they can be out.

And then put up a 20-foot wall around the entire place.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

30 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

Agree on Allen/Payne. Not so much on Settle or Matt I.

 

But put me in the camp that would be cool with trading for Stafford with pick #19 and a 3rd. It would allow us to keep current FAs and sign a WR and LB, and still have picks to add some talent while not mortgaging the future.

Other than that, though, I'm not really up for mortgaging anything for Watson, Rodgers, Ryan, etc.

 

If this staff is really high on the potential for Sam Darnold, and that's their Plan A, then count me in there too. In this FO I trust, in the end. And I think they will be smart about this.

Yep agree on Stafford. Interesting article above that suggests our #19 pick is well positioned in the round, whereby others with a much higher first won’t want to part with it.

 

I’m not keen on Ryan. Likewise Rodgers actually, that could be a very short window, but then to offset that, he still is a great QB. As for @Skinsinparadise first choice, Darnold, no I really don’t like that. 
 

Watson...well, that to me is a tough one. Very tough one. You are getting a franchise QB for a decade. Put a price on that and maybe, just maybe, a haul of picks looks just fine in 3 years. But I fully understand the reservation of the fan base there. I don’t see that happening anyway.

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, DeaconBlue said:

Just to respond. I had to do my research but from what I can see Brees was a straight up free agent when the the saints got him. From what I read all tom cost the the buccaneers was his contract. Unless I'm missing something.  Philip rivers I didn't get around to looking up but whatever it was led to a successful but apparently one and done experiment.  Now if we could pull off something like either the brees or brady type scenarios then I'd be all for it. All they had to do is just pay the guy.  All the top guys that look like they'd really make a difference for us seem to require all sorts of additional compensation in the form of draft picks and/or players as well. That just feels like 1 step forward 2 steps back to me. I dunno...

Gotcha, you are opposed to giving up picks/players to get the QB when we could just roll with what we have and add a vet FA like Fitzpatrick. I'm on record as being ok with this scenario myself.

[oraphus]

I think Allen is on the trade block for a QB since his contract is up soon... Settle isnt worth anything. Skins have been good at finding d lineman in the later rounds so I dont think Allen's loss will be all that impactful. Plus Niners just got a 1st for Buckner and Allen is not that far behind we should be looking at similar comp.

... and QB is a much more impactful and important position than a pass rusher... if you're in a position to get a top end qb at the expense of a pass rusher - you take it. This team has a very obvious gap in QB talent and a much smaller gap for dline/ pass-rushers. It hilarious when ESers use the "he is a captain" argument or "he's part of the new culture" for why a player cant be traded. Thats all BS... positive culture comes from winning and coaching... not from one player.

Edited January 26, 2021 by oraphus

[method man]

4 minutes ago, oraphus said:

I think Allen is on the trade block for a QB... Settle isnt worth anything. Skins have been good at finding d lineman in the later rounds so I dont think Allen's loss will be all that impactful. Plus Niners just got a 1st for Buckner and Allen is not that far behind we should be looking at similar comp.

 

Settle certainly has value. He was up and down last year but he is good enough to start for half the teams in the league. The thing is that Allen definitely has more value, the first round pedigree and the bigger salary. If we were to try to get something for Allen now, I think we get a 2nd or a 3rd.

1 hour ago, Rskins91 said:

I'm not sure how he is. He played his ass off in the Tampa game. 2 sacks, 1 FF. Him and Allen do so much work for our defense.

 

That's why I'd be more willing to trade Ioannidis than either of those two. We already know the lineup works with Payne and Allen in the fold, with Settle as rotational depth. I love Ioannidis but it's a position of depth the Lions sorely need help with. I think a 1st, a 3rd, and Ioannidis would be a tough offer for the Lions to pass up. 

 

If you move Ioannidis, you are moving him when his value is low, coming off an injury. You also have him under control for 2 more years at a reasonable salary. That must be taken into account.

1 hour ago, Rskins91 said:

I'm not sure how he is. He played his ass off in the Tampa game. 2 sacks, 1 FF. Him and Allen do so much work for our defense.

 

That's why I'd be more willing to trade Ioannidis than either of those two. We already know the lineup works with Payne and Allen in the fold, with Settle as rotational depth. I love Ioannidis but it's a position of depth the Lions sorely need help with. I think a 1st, a 3rd, and Ioannidis would be a tough offer for the Lions to pass up. 

 

If you move Ioannidis, you are moving him when his value is low, coming off an injury. You also have him under control for 2 more years at a reasonable salary. That must be taken into account.

[justice98]

15 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

It's crazy talk. People are so QB starved they miss the forest through the trees. 

 

QB is extremely important... But the guys we're talking about: Dak, Stafford, Watson, Carr, Wentz, etc, etc, etc., haven't won anything. We are overrating what we have on roster and mortgaging the future with a huge trade (Watson is a huge trade, Stafford for a single 1 and maybe a 3 isn't that bad).

 

We're also living in the era of Brady and Mahomes.  These two will have won 5 of the 7 SBs since these other guys got into the league, outside of Stafford. We're not getting either one of them, so you get who's left.

 

We were probably a good QB away from 11 wins this year. Even with the roster deficiencies.  Bad QB play is primarily responsible for, at minimum, 3 losses, probably closer to 5.  It's not so much overstating our team as it is rating them relative to the competition in the NFC, particularly the NFC East.  

[Est.1974]

Can’t see an Allen trade. Seems like a strong locker room presence to me. Quiet, but definite leader in the room. Been on a crap team for years, we finally get good and they farm him out to a rebuild. On a 5th year option, don’t see it. Hope not anyway.

[UK Skins]

If Detroit will genuinely take #19 and a 3rd rounder you've got to do that. It's not mortgaging the future, and there isn't a decent rookie QB available at that spot. If you have to give up the 3rd to move up slightly to reach for Lance for instance then why not just take Stafford?

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

We're also living in the era of Brady and Mahomes.  These two will have won 5 of the 7 SBs since these other guys got into the league, outside of Stafford. We're not getting either one of them, so you get who's left.

 

We were probably a good QB away from 11 wins this year. Even with the roster deficiencies.  Bad QB play is primarily responsible for, at minimum, 3 losses, probably closer to 5.  It's not so much overstating our team as it is rating them relative to the competition in the NFC, particularly the NFC East.  

Do you remember how poorly the whole team played the first few weeks? Or even in Tampa? Our best player against Tampa was likely Payne followed by... Heinicke. Who everyone is gung ho on jettisoning (with some merit to that idea, granted).

 

This is what I mean by we are overvaluing our roster.

[method man]

1 minute ago, UK Skins said:

If Detroit will genuinely take #19 and a 3rd rounder you've got to do that. It's not mortgaging the future, and there isn't a decent rookie QB available at that spot. If you have to give up the 3rd to move up slightly to reach for Lance for instance then why not just take Stafford?

I would move the 3rd if it came to it but I’d rather move Settle and possibly Allen. I know Kyle Smith is gone but this draft feels deep enough to me that we can get a cheap day 1 productive talent with that pick

[justice98]

1 hour ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Trading key players can’t be an option. Breaks trust, will undo some strong work from this season. Don’t see it happening, but I guess you just never know.

 

Depends on the player, and how many.  If you trade a key player to get a franchise QB that can win you games every week, they'll get over their trust issues.  I highly doubt they'll still be pouting about an offseason trade if they have confidence in the man under center.  And it won't take long.

[method man]

7 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Can’t see an Allen trade. Seems like a strong locker room presence to me. Quiet, but definite leader in the room. Been on a crap team for years, we finally get good and they farm him out to a rebuild. On a 5th year option, don’t see it. Hope not anyway.

It would certainly suck but the leadership void on the DL has been filled by Chase. If you bring in David, you have another leader

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

 

I’m not keen on Ryan. Likewise Rodgers actually, that could be a very short window, but then to offset that, he still is a great QB. As for @Skinsinparadise first choice, Darnold, no I really don’t like that. 

 lol, we got to keep that going since the last two times they've done the opposite of what I wanted at QB.  So I am switching sides on Darnold to save us all. 

 

So now I am pro Darnold all the way.  It's all the Jets fault along with his supporting cast.  They are responsible for the fumbles and INTS.  The dude is just 23, high intangibles, he's unstoppable, we got to make it happen.  

[JamesMadisonSkins]

Darnold came out raw. He was a R-So, if I recall. He also had to deal with a depleted roster and Adam Gase offense the last two years. It's a lazy comp, but just look what Tannehill did when he got to a new team, and had some talent to work with (and obviously a new coach and offensive mindset).

 

I'm not saying Darnold is the answer, because there are plenty who have watched his tape who could probably weigh in more accurately than I can. But idk if we should write-off anyone who has played most of their young career for Adam Gase.

[HigSkin]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 lol, we got to keep that going since the last two times they've done the opposite of what I wanted at QB.  So I am switching sides on Darnold to save us all. 

 

So now I am pro Darnold all the way.  It's all the Jets fault along with his supporting cast.  They are responsible for the fumbles and INTS.  The dude is just 23, high intangibles, he's unstoppable, we got to make it happen.  

 

The way you feel about Darnold is about the way I feel about Cam and Tyrod so I'm jumping on the same band wagon!  Cam was on a lousy NE team and his arm/shoulder look like his rookie year and Tyrod just has not been given a full season to show how talented he is. Both are so mobile, something RR wants and we should go get them.  😂

Edited January 26, 2021 by HigSkin