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Next Day Thread (Same Day Edition): WFT vs. Arizona


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58 minutes ago, dyst said:

Cardinals would still be waiting for Rosen to develop if they followed the advice of some folks around here.

 

Exactly what I was going to say.  Teams and fans hold on to hope way too long. I was guilty of it with Campbell and RGIII. I've learned my lesson. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck, and we have an entire season to identify if we have a player or a duck.  

 

 

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2 hours ago, dyst said:

Cardinals would still be waiting for Rosen to develop if they followed the advice of some folks around here.

 

If we have the first overall pick in the upcoming draft and there is still doubt about Haskins or even if he plays well but we just grade Trevor Lawrence as just being so much better you have a point. Possibly if we are picking second overall and you have a similar grade on Fields. After that the point disappears because the situations are not the same.

 

If we are picking 1 or 2 we are likely taking a QB.

 

I think we are much more likely to be picking in the 5/6 range than 1/2 though.

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2 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Exactly what I was going to say.  Teams and fans hold on to hope way too long. I was guilty of it with Campbell and RGIII. I've learned my lesson. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck, and we have an entire season to identify if we have a player or a duck.  

 

 

 

Ha, same boat. Throw Frerotte in there too. I had so much hope for him for way too long. I'm starting with a completely blank slate with Rivera and the new regime. Who we drafted before him doesn't matter. He doesn't owe Haskins any playing time and if the offense continues to be the worst in the NFL and Haskins play continues to be the worst in the NFL, then let's try something different. Maybe it's the homer in me but I think we could compete for the NFC East this year and make the playoffs if we just had mediocre QB play instead of worst in the NFL play. 

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3 hours ago, dyst said:

Cardinals would still be waiting for Rosen to develop if they followed the advice of some folks around here.

Actually, i think the cardinals situation with Rosen, and our situation with Haskins, is almost the same. 
 

We’re wanting to give haskins all, or most, of this season (his first FULL season) to evaluate him. The cardinals have rosen most of his rookie year to evaluate him. Cardinals picked a QB the next year. We could very likely be doing the same. 

In short, the advice we want the team to follow doesnt at all feel that different than what Arizona did. 

 

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Haskins is a Doug Williams guy.

The FO reshuffled a bunch of positions after Gruden's pathetic last season, but Doug still had massive input on the Haskins pick as VP of player personel.

 

And it shows.

 

Go watch some 1986-1987 Redskins games on YT. They play in an eerily similar fashion: rocket arm, limited mobility and average completion porcentage.                  

 

Rivera will cut him when and if he sees fit. No alligency whatsoever.

 

Edited by El Mexican
Clarity
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4 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Actually, i think the cardinals situation with Rosen, and our situation with Haskins, is almost the same. 
 

We’re wanting to give haskins all, or most, of this season (his first FULL season) to evaluate him. The cardinals have rosen most of his rookie year to evaluate him. Cardinals picked a QB the next year. We could very likely be doing the same. 

In short, the advice we want the team to follow doesnt at all feel that different than what Arizona did. 

 

Except I don’t plan on having a different regime in place next year.

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11 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Most QBs get at least 3 years before they get sat, shipped, whatever: Darnold, Mayfield, Trubisky are all in their third year. PFF just praised Trubisky's play so far this year (13th ranked QB, currently), while Darnold and Mayfield are middling (27th and 26th, respectively). I'd imagine they'd all get a 4th year--probably get their 5th year option picked up. The only exception is Josh Rosen, who had major concerns about his work ethic, passion for the game, etc. and has been dumped after 1 year in two different places. This idea to cut and run after a short window isn't really accurate.


Every year that goes by with middling or worse results for a young QB I believe their ceiling goes by with it. Meaning the three guys you mentioned— Darnold, Mayfield, and Trubisky— I think all three of them are already pretty clearly not going to be superstar QBs (Darnold has had fewer starts so he’s less defined). Star QBs develop and produce much faster today than 20+ years ago. No one really follows the Terry Bradshaw or even Drew Brees path now. It’s different. 
 

Now, that does NOT mean that those guys mentioned are all going to suck for their careers. They might be OK; maybe have a pro bowl season or something. Or maybe be as average as it gets— maybe in the case of Darnold, just a total bust. I would not “give up” on any of them being serviceable NFL QBs. But I think fans of those teams would all tell you they were hoping for more than serviceable. 
 

I also understand if you have a QB in his 3rd/4th year who is decent not wanting to start all over again in the hopes of doing better. That’s when teams make decisions to ride with a non-star QB and hope to build a good enough team around him. I’d say that’s sort of what the Niners are trying to do right now; and it’s an approach that can still work in bursts. 
 

But my point remains that the growth should be clear. After 9 starts I’m already pretty convinced Haskins will never be a “star” player. I hope I’m wrong. I am also a little biased because I was adamantly against drafting him. So I came into this thinking he was wildly over drafted. I like some of his intangibles. But he has absolutely no touch on the football— it’s 100mph fastballs all the time. He’s also shaky as heck in the pocket. On Sunday there were two times he scrambled directly into traffic. I think those are more instinctual things and not things that will be easily taught. 
 

I have not given up on Haskins being a solid QB. Need to see quite a bit more before making that determination. But if he’s a bust, I promise you, we will know it by years end. 

11 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Most QBs get at least 3 years before they get sat, shipped, whatever: Darnold, Mayfield, Trubisky are all in their third year. PFF just praised Trubisky's play so far this year (13th ranked QB, currently), while Darnold and Mayfield are middling (27th and 26th, respectively). I'd imagine they'd all get a 4th year--probably get their 5th year option picked up. The only exception is Josh Rosen, who had major concerns about his work ethic, passion for the game, etc. and has been dumped after 1 year in two different places. This idea to cut and run after a short window isn't really accurate.


Every year that goes by with middling or worse results for a young QB I believe their ceiling goes by with it. Meaning the three guys you mentioned— Darnold, Mayfield, and Trubisky— I think all three of them are already pretty clearly not going to be superstar QBs (Darnold has had fewer starts so he’s less defined). Star QBs develop and produce much faster today than 20+ years ago. No one really follows the Terry Bradshaw or even Drew Brees path now. It’s different. 
 

Now, that does NOT mean that those guys mentioned are all going to suck for their careers. They might be OK; maybe have a pro bowl season or something. Or maybe be as average as it gets— maybe in the case of Darnold, just a total bust. I would not “give up” on any of them being serviceable NFL QBs. But I think fans of those teams would all tell you they were hoping for more than serviceable. 
 

I also understand if you have a QB in his 3rd/4th year who is decent not wanting to start all over again in the hopes of doing better. That’s when teams make decisions to ride with a non-star QB and hope to build a good enough team around him. I’d say that’s sort of what the Niners are trying to do right now; and it’s an approach that can still work in bursts. 
 

But my point remains that the growth should be clear. After 9 starts I’m already pretty convinced Haskins will never be a “star” player. I hope I’m wrong. I am also a little biased because I was adamantly against drafting him. So I came into this thinking he was wildly over drafted. I like some of his intangibles. But he has absolutely no touch on the football— it’s 100mph fastballs all the time. He’s also shaky as heck in the pocket. On Sunday there were two times he scrambled directly into traffic. I think those are more instinctual things and not things that will be easily taught. 
 

I have not given up on Haskins being a solid QB. Need to see quite a bit more before making that determination. But if he’s a bust, I promise you, we will know it by years end. 

11 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Most QBs get at least 3 years before they get sat, shipped, whatever: Darnold, Mayfield, Trubisky are all in their third year. PFF just praised Trubisky's play so far this year (13th ranked QB, currently), while Darnold and Mayfield are middling (27th and 26th, respectively). I'd imagine they'd all get a 4th year--probably get their 5th year option picked up. The only exception is Josh Rosen, who had major concerns about his work ethic, passion for the game, etc. and has been dumped after 1 year in two different places. This idea to cut and run after a short window isn't really accurate.


Every year that goes by with middling or worse results for a young QB I believe their ceiling goes by with it. Meaning the three guys you mentioned— Darnold, Mayfield, and Trubisky— I think all three of them are already pretty clearly not going to be superstar QBs (Darnold has had fewer starts so he’s less defined). Star QBs develop and produce much faster today than 20+ years ago. No one really follows the Terry Bradshaw or even Drew Brees path now. It’s different. 
 

Now, that does NOT mean that those guys mentioned are all going to suck for their careers. They might be OK; maybe have a pro bowl season or something. Or maybe be as average as it gets— maybe in the case of Darnold, just a total bust. I would not “give up” on any of them being serviceable NFL QBs. But I think fans of those teams would all tell you they were hoping for more than serviceable. 
 

I also understand if you have a QB in his 3rd/4th year who is decent not wanting to start all over again in the hopes of doing better. That’s when teams make decisions to ride with a non-star QB and hope to build a good enough team around him. I’d say that’s sort of what the Niners are trying to do right now; and it’s an approach that can still work in bursts. 
 

But my point remains that the growth should be clear. After 9 starts I’m already pretty convinced Haskins will never be a “star” player. I hope I’m wrong. I am also a little biased because I was adamantly against drafting him. So I came into this thinking he was wildly over drafted. I like some of his intangibles. But he has absolutely no touch on the football— it’s 100mph fastballs all the time. He’s also shaky as heck in the pocket. On Sunday there were two times he scrambled directly into traffic. I think those are more instinctual things and not things that will be easily taught. 
 

I have not given up on Haskins being a solid QB. Need to see quite a bit more before making that determination. But if he’s a bust, I promise you, we will know it by years end. 

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Watched the game again.  Was surprised that in many ways, except the final outcome, how similar it was to our first game, well kind of the opposite.  First, we get the turnover and have the ball 1st.  It looked like we might tie it up.  Turn it over ourselves but stop them and it is looking like we might get another chance.  Turn over! Leads to giving them another TD.  Second FG was set up by a long pass completion that spookily looked much like the overthrow by Wentz the week before. Just two plays and we'd have been down 10-7 at the half. The week before the and the Eagles would have been up 24-0 at the half had they made 2 plays.  2 fails in week 1 by the other team and we crush them.  2 fails by us this week and we get crushed.

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I don't think we will see Allen or Smith at any point in the season unless Haskins gets injured.  The win/loss record doesn't matter for the team long-term so it's better to be able to make a definitive conclusion on Haskins.  The WFT has one more year of Smith on a cheap contract so they can either use him as a stop-gap or trade him.  Or, Allen can fill that role until the team finds a suitable replacement in the draft.  If Haskins doesn't pan out he gets relegated to backup or whatever the WFT can get in a trade.  The team really needs to win the off-season...Gawd! 

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On 9/22/2020 at 12:16 AM, kleese said:


Nah, a QB means everything. You put Kyler Murray on this team right now and we are a playoff contender even with the weaknesses along the OL, TE, etc. The defense is good enough to compete already and a good QB masks a whole lot of issues. Gotta the QB position right and shouldn’t hold back just because we invested in one already. Let’s just say by the middle-ish part of season Haskins isn’t getting any better; I’d be fine giving Kyle Allen a run for at least 3-4 games so we could compare apples to apples. If there is a noticeable improvement then you have your first clue that Haskins May truly not be the guy. If we have to draft/invest in another QB next year, then so be it. Look at the teams that get it right with young QBs— they aren’t waiting around for years and years for their guys to develop. It’s apparent pretty quickly. 

 

All good points but I personally go with this...

 

9 NFL starts. 2 starts under new coaching staff, scheme. Haskins needs reps, not bench. 

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The more snaps he gets, the slower the game will become.  Haskins seems to play too fast...almost faster than the other 10 until we get into a 2 min offense when they all hustlin.  His reads will slow down...as he learns to read defenses presnap, he’ll adjust our playmakers appropriately at the los.  Being able to do these things take time...real game action time where you can put it on film, study it and continue to get better.  Simba is a hard worker.  Wouldn’t have been designated a C if he wasn’t.  He’ll put in the work.  Waaay too early to write him off.  And unless he plays 16 games where he progressively declines, we are not taking qb next year

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It is impossible to throw a quarterback under the bus, when there is a new system, no ota's, no preseason, and basically into his 8th or 9th game as a starter. The oline and lack of weapons is quite clear. I see some bright spots with Haskins but most definitely is not going to be critical at the quarterback position this year unless Haskins just throws some bone headed interceptions. Rivera also commented on the coaches are trying to install too much due to the lack of Ota's, preseason, and etc. I think fans need to be as understanding as well. I like the fact the team does compete. 

Edited by Skins3000
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