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Next Day Thread (Same Day Edition): WFT vs. Arizona


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1 hour ago, kleese said:

So the issue then becomes if we are at around the midway point of the season and Haskins hasn’t improved much, it only makes sense to wonder what Allen might be able to do. 

 

This is where I'm at, too. The WFT clearly isn't at a point where an upgrade from a bad QB to a mediocre one is going to turn the season around. Too many holes on the roster. It'd take superstar caliber QB play to make this offense work.

 

We need to see tangible week-to-week improvement in Haskins over the next several weeks for me to buy in. I'm dubious at this point, but this is a rebuilding and evaluation season.

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7 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Hmm. I thought we were still stuck with his salary for 21.

 

I mean he'd still count $10M in dead cap in 2021 but they'll save $14M in cap space by releasing him in the offseason.  

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55 minutes ago, profusion said:

 

This is where I'm at, too. The WFT clearly isn't at a point where an upgrade from a bad QB to a mediocre one is going to turn the season around. Too many holes on the roster. It'd take superstar caliber QB play to make this offense work.

 

We need to see tangible week-to-week improvement in Haskins over the next several weeks for me to buy in. I'm dubious at this point, but this is a rebuilding and evaluation season.

I agree, but the issue then is it might be tough for Rivera et al to evaluate the entire offense when the QB plays this poorly. I do think the left side of the OL, TEs, and WR corps(outside of McLaurin)are arguably the worst in the NFL, but its hard to know for sure. It was like those times when we'd replace Jason Campbell with Todd Collins or RG3 with Kirk Cousins and suddenly the OL looks a lot better.

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1 hour ago, profusion said:

 

This is where I'm at, too. The WFT clearly isn't at a point where an upgrade from a bad QB to a mediocre one is going to turn the season around. Too many holes on the roster. It'd take superstar caliber QB play to make this offense work.

 

We need to see tangible week-to-week improvement in Haskins over the next several weeks for me to buy in. I'm dubious at this point, but this is a rebuilding and evaluation season.

 

We don't know what Allen can do but I'm pretty sure Rivera has a good idea. 

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5 hours ago, Playaction2Sanders said:

 

Yet everyone rags on the Chargers for letting go of Drew Brees when everything leading up to his not being retained supported them moving on. Plenty of arguments supporting both patience and cutting bait. Just a matter of what do you believe more..

More often than not first impressions are the correct ones. For every Brees and even Tannehill to an extent there’s a Rosen or a Campbell or a Gabbert or hell even an Alex Smith. I’m down for patience and I’m still in the camp that he’s our future but it’s getting increasingly harder to make excuses.

5 hours ago, theTruthTeller said:

Not disagreeing, but can you name someone on offense other than McL that gets the benefit of the doubt if he doesn't improve?

Well considering Haskins was a first round pick his talent should be able to elevate the level of talent around him. You draft guys in the first to be (hopefully) be cornerstones of your franchise  not guys who need the right level of talent around him to succeed. That’s what you get from a 4th round pick (cough: Cousins) not a first. I’m still down for Dwayne but let’s not act like most first round QBs ever become stars. More often than not they don’t.

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28 minutes ago, PlayAction said:

 

We don't know what Allen can do but I'm pretty sure Rivera has a good idea. 

 

That's a good point. I never watched any of Allen's Carolina games, but from the accounts it sounds like he's a high-floor, low-ceiling guy.

 

If the season goes south and Haskins doesn't get it in gear, I'm sure Allen will get a look.

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9 minutes ago, profusion said:

 

That's a good point. I never watched any of Allen's Carolina games, but from the accounts it sounds like he's a high-floor, low-ceiling guy.


You missed him starting against us last season in one of the 3 games we won?

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23 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Well considering Haskins was a first round pick his talent should be able to elevate the level of talent around him.

 

Here's a scary thought: maybe he does...

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30 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Well then i'm excited to see it when it happens.

The rest of our is so bad, this is "elevating" them! ;)

7 minutes ago, MartinC said:


I think you missed the joke. Or the possibility it’s not actually a joke ...

 

 

200.gif

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7 hours ago, Chachie said:

 

 

Unless Haskins gets hurt there's no way I bench him. This season should absolutely be about getting him every possession, every snap no matter how many games we lose. We finally have a coach that is willing to play it straight with us about a rebuild. No more propaganda about "We're going for Super Bowl or bust this year and every year." It was never a realistic scenario under a first or second year coaching staff and perhaps not even under any season with Gruden. Ron Rivera is basically telling us flat-out that this is a super young offense and we're not going to go far this season. Therefore, play the young man. we can't be drafting another QB next year. We have too many other positions on offense to fill through the draft.


Nah, a QB means everything. You put Kyler Murray on this team right now and we are a playoff contender even with the weaknesses along the OL, TE, etc. The defense is good enough to compete already and a good QB masks a whole lot of issues. Gotta the QB position right and shouldn’t hold back just because we invested in one already. Let’s just say by the middle-ish part of season Haskins isn’t getting any better; I’d be fine giving Kyle Allen a run for at least 3-4 games so we could compare apples to apples. If there is a noticeable improvement then you have your first clue that Haskins May truly not be the guy. If we have to draft/invest in another QB next year, then so be it. Look at the teams that get it right with young QBs— they aren’t waiting around for years and years for their guys to develop. It’s apparent pretty quickly. 

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8 hours ago, kleese said:

I’d be fine giving Kyle Allen a run for at least 3-4 games so we could compare apples to apples.

Both Turner and Rivera had Allen all year last year. They know what they have in him.

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8 hours ago, kleese said:

If we have to draft/invest in another QB next year, then so be it. Look at the teams that get it right with young QBs— they aren’t waiting around for years and years for their guys to develop. It’s apparent pretty quickly.

 

Most QBs get at least 3 years before they get sat, shipped, whatever: Darnold, Mayfield, Trubisky are all in their third year. PFF just praised Trubisky's play so far this year (13th ranked QB, currently), while Darnold and Mayfield are middling (27th and 26th, respectively). I'd imagine they'd all get a 4th year--probably get their 5th year option picked up. The only exception is Josh Rosen, who had major concerns about his work ethic, passion for the game, etc. and has been dumped after 1 year in two different places. This idea to cut and run after a short window isn't really accurate.

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8 hours ago, kleese said:


Nah, a QB means everything. You put Kyler Murray on this team right now and we are a playoff contender even with the weaknesses along the OL, TE, etc. 

 

I agree with this to an extent.  I think with our porous O line, you need a mobile QB like Murray.  I got my doubts that Haskins is the dude.  I felt that way before the draft and still do.  Murray I loved, watched him play live once in college, he's a lot of fun to watch.  Killer skill set. 

 

8 hours ago, kleese said:


Gotta the QB position right and shouldn’t hold back just because we invested in one already. 

 

Agree with this, too.  The Cards is a case in point.

 

8 hours ago, kleese said:

 I’d be fine giving Kyle Allen a run for at least 3-4 games so we could compare apples to apples. If there is a noticeable improvement then you have your first clue that Haskins May truly not be the guy. If we have to draft/invest in another QB next year, then so be it. Look at the teams that get it right with young QBs— they aren’t waiting around for years and years for their guys to develop. It’s apparent pretty quickly. 

 

I am somewhat opposed to giving Kyle a shot mainly because I don't think he's the answer.  And look if Haskins is the problem and Kyle ends up helping them win a game or two it might defeat the purpose of finding a replacement in this draft.  Kyle was undrafted and wasn't hot last season. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am somewhat opposed to giving Kyle a shot mainly because I don't think he's the answer.  And look if Haskins is the problem and Kyle ends up helping them win a game or two it might defeat the purpose of finding a replacement in this draft.  Kyle was undrafted and wasn't hot last season. 

 

**** sandwich for Sewell!

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30 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Most QBs get at least 3 years before they get sat, shipped, whatever: Darnold, Mayfield, Trubisky are all in their third year. PFF just praised Trubisky's play so far this year (13th ranked QB, currently), while Darnold and Mayfield are middling (27th and 26th, respectively). I'd imagine they'd all get a 4th year--probably get their 5th year option picked up. The only exception is Josh Rosen, who had major concerns about his work ethic, passion for the game, etc. and has been dumped after 1 year in two different places. This idea to cut and run after a short window isn't really accurate.

 

 

I admit I wasn't a Haskins guy before the draft.  Not saying you are suggesting otherwise but for me I don't buy into the idea that he's so mega talented that you stick with him because how couldn't you with his skills?  I think that's more how I'd approach a dude like Murray.  For Haskins, I think he has a really good fastball, quick release but also some real fundamental flaws that aren't always fixed.   For me the dude is a wild card.  I know some think the NFL was dumb for not picking Haskins earlier but he did drop to the mid first round for a reason.  Dudes who are mega talented frequently don't drop like that.    My point is i don't think Haskins was a no brainer mega talented QB type.  Josh Allen has been mentioned here as a developmental prospect who took time but he went earlier in the draft than Haskins did and for a reason.  Allen is a freak.  He has a bazooka like John Elway (stronger arm than Haskins) and can run, too.

 

Plenty of busts in the NFL with players with strong arms.  Campbell, Ramsey and RG3 all had bazookas.  

 

I'd give Haskins this season.  See if he makes good progress.  Grade him on a curve but still factor whether he's conquered his weaknesses or not.  For me a lot of it depends on their draft position and if they love one of those QBs in the draft.  I do buy the reports that Kyle Smith wasn't a Haskins guy in that draft (Russell had doubled down on that recently but he's not alone with that scoop).  Dan Synder according to most was the Haskins guy in that building.  If Dan really has given up the reigns, it will be an interesting road if they consider moving on if Haskins struggles.  And yeah Dan doesn't exactly have the Midas touch with QBs.  As we know.  Will see.  I hope Dan is right for a change.

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I am listening to Sheehan broadcast and he said it was more bad than good on Sunday from Dwyane.  He told his audience that if you cannot take watching the game

then go outside and not watch the games unless you are ready to deal with the ups and downs from the quarterback.  Sheehan has been a staunch defender of Haskins

last year.  Fans are seeing other very young quarterbacks be successful early in their careers so expectations for Haskins are going to be high.  I am going to watch the

defense more when I watch the games and try not to get so upset with the offense.  Going to lower my  expectations for the team as injuries hit the team from week to week.

We lack depth at a lot of positions and we are carrying the costly Alex Smith contract again this year.

 

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All throughout training camp and the offseason, we were hearing nonstop from a variety of sources about how 'college-like' this offense would be, with misdirection, quick swing passes to the backs, reverses, etc. Where has that been? Sure, you have Steven Sims running motion on every other play, but have we actually given him the ball on a jet sweep yet? 

 

We clearly don't have the talent on offense to run a conventional offense and we greatly need to expand the playbook to cover up the glaring lack of talent we have. 

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22 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I admit I wasn't a Haskins guy before the draft.  Not saying you are suggesting otherwise but for me I don't buy into the idea that he's so mega talented that you stick with him because how couldn't you with his skills?  I think that's more how I'd approach a dude like Murray.  For Haskins, I think he has a really good fastball, quick release but also some real fundamental flaws that aren't always fixed.   For me the dude is a wild card.  I know some think the NFL was dub for not picking Haskins either but he did drop to the mid first round for a reason.  Dudes who are mega talented frequently don't drop like that.    My point is i don't think Haskins was a no brainer mega talented QB type.  Josh Allen has been mentioned here as a developmental prospect who took time but he went earlier in the draft than Hasdkins did and for a reason.  Allen is a freak.  He has a bazooka like John Elway (stronger arm than Haskins) and can run, too.

 

Plenty of busts in the NFL with players with strong arms.  Campbell, Ramsey and RG3 all had bazookas.  

 

I'd give Haskins this season.  See if he makes good progress.  Grade him on a curve but still factor whether he's conquered his weaknesses or not.  For me a lot of it depends on their draft position and if they love one of those QBs in the draft.  I do buy the reports that Kyle Smith wasn't a Haskins guy in that draft (Russell had doubled down on that recently but he's not alone with that scoop).  Dan Synder according to most was the Haskins guy in that building.  If Dan really has given up the reigns, it will be an interesting road if they consider moving on if Haskins struggles.  And yeah Dan doesn't exactly have the Midas touch with QBs.  As we know.  Will see.  I hope Dan is right for a change.

I had the same thought with Haskins as you--I texted a friend of mine when they took him that he might be a good quarterback in a good organization and good coaching, which isn't here. So he'll be a bust. There are things to like about Haskins--he makes good decisions, the good arm, quick release (as opposed to Campbell who is still winding up from his last NFL pass a decade ago), and he is a leader in the locker room, which only goes so far if you suck. His mechanics are ****--like you said aren't always fixable, but I think it's easier to fix than a guy who can't read a defense. My hope is he becomes a Joe Flacco type--a QB that can win if everything around him is good. Is that worth waiting for?

 

I'm willing to give Haskins next year too, even at this current pace.--unless we have an option for Lawrence or Fields, and the current administration feels they're the guy. It's not like we're contending then either, and they're going to be running for their lives behind this craptastic line. So it's a tough choice for me, do we go with Sewell or Fields? I'm fairly certain the Panthers will have the #1 overall, especially with CMC hurt.

 

It still pisses me off that Allen had a #1 for Trent and passed for his ego--while we watch Willis and Bekton crush people...

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26 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Sheehan has been a staunch defender of Haskins last year.  Fans are seeing other very young quarterbacks be successful early in their careers so expectations for Haskins are going to be high. 

Guys like him, will continue to say Haskins needs time, because they just don't want to admit their assessment was incorrect. Then one day, they will come out and say "boy do I feel dumb, I really thought blah blah blah".

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9 hours ago, kleese said:


Nah, a QB means everything. You put Kyler Murray on this team right now and we are a playoff contender even with the weaknesses along the OL, TE, etc. The defense is good enough to compete already and a good QB masks a whole lot of issues. Gotta the QB position right and shouldn’t hold back just because we invested in one already. Let’s just say by the middle-ish part of season Haskins isn’t getting any better; I’d be fine giving Kyle Allen a run for at least 3-4 games so we could compare apples to apples. If there is a noticeable improvement then you have your first clue that Haskins May truly not be the guy. If we have to draft/invest in another QB next year, then so be it. Look at the teams that get it right with young QBs— they aren’t waiting around for years and years for their guys to develop. It’s apparent pretty quickly. 

 

My thoughts exactly. I still can't believe fans still undervalue the QB position. If you have a bad QB you have no chance in this league.  Of course they should take a QB with the first pick if one is available and Haskins continues to stink.  As another poster pointed out as soon as Cousins replaced Griff, and Collins took over for Campbell, suddenly they could move the ball with the same OL.  

 

 

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10 hours ago, kleese said:

Gotta the QB position right and shouldn’t hold back just because we invested in one already.

Cardinals would still be waiting for Rosen to develop if they followed the advice of some folks around here.

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