A New Start! (the Reboot) The Front Office, Ownership, & Coaching Staff Thread

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

The sum counter-argument you’ve presented in each of your 3 replies amounts to “nu-uh.” So excuse me for moving on to something more stimulating.

That’s rich considering your argument isn’t fact based nor can it be quantified with any evidence or proof.

[Riggo#44]

31 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

We gotta pump the brakes about being 7-5 like it's a great thing.

Us sitting at 7-5:

 

Yeah, they're playing great--this defense is fun to watch. The offense is serviceable, B-Rob is a truck, Terry is Terry. But let's be honest, we are winning despite the QB. I don't buy the "the team plays harder for Heinicke" narrative--it's no difference than saying X-player "makes everyone around him better." 

 

We could very well go 1-4, 0-5 down the stretch. If Heinicke's YOLO balls revert to the norm and become more WTF balls, we are going to win many games. Wentz could very well replace Heinicke (then this team would clearly fall apart because they "rally around him!!!"). So, yes, lets definitely pump the breaks.

[Zim489]

In the teams wins the opponents are 22-48-2 with a point differential of 44. Take out the eagles and they are 12-47-2 with 33 points over 6 games.In loses the opponents are 38-17 with a differential of 47 points. This is a bad bad football team that’s built entirely on luck beating horrible teams. They have played one good game against a quality opponent and had to have numerous things go their direction to even win that.If you do the oppo result in one score games (which in historical statistics is nearly 5050 across the league for each team) is 3-9. So they are even getting lucky against the bad teams too.

 

Its so hard to quantifiy that this team is winning. The sheer number of stats and historical records that show that this team should be a dumpster fire is immense. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Zim489

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Clearly those charts don’t account for the Heinicke inspirational and motivation factor, rendering them useless.

 

You don’t have to tell me that we’ve been lucky af to be where we are.  It’s obvious watching the games.  That said, I still believe this defense is good enough for January football.

[Commander PK]

11 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Clearly those charts don’t account for the Heinicke inspirational and motivation factor, rendering them useless.

 

A few of the things I have observed about Taylor, even considering his shortcomings is that he seems to genuinely be excited and fired-up about being the QB of this team.  Not just a team, but THIS team.    

 

When was the last time we saw anybody that fired up to play QB for this team?  I saw it in Colt McCoy also when he got his chances.  I didn't see that kind of fire out of Cousins, Smith, or Wentz.  I didn't get a real chance to see it out of Fitzpatrick.  I'm not saying the others didn't care, I'm just saying I didn't see that kind of public enthusiasm out of them.  I didn't see that kind of fire in them during the games.  

 

Enthusiasm goes a long way with me.  I can forgive a lot when a guy has that kind of fire in him, and you know he is trying his best to win.  A personality like Taylor's is infectious. 

 

The question was asked on the junkies this morning do you think they would be 6-1 over the last 7 games with Wentz behind center.  I don't think they would.  Wentz takes a sack when Taylor scrambles and makes a throw.  Maybe if Wentz has to come back in at some point things are better than in September.  I hope they continue to find a way to win and we don't have to find out.  

[Spaceman Spiff]

34 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

Us sitting at 7-5:

 

Yeah, they're playing great--this defense is fun to watch. The offense is serviceable, B-Rob is a truck, Terry is Terry. But let's be honest, we are winning despite the QB. I don't buy the "the team plays harder for Heinicke" narrative--it's no difference than saying X-player "makes everyone around him better." 

 

We could very well go 1-4, 0-5 down the stretch. If Heinicke's YOLO balls revert to the norm and become more WTF balls, we are going to win many games. Wentz could very well replace Heinicke (then this team would clearly fall apart because they "rally around him!!!"). So, yes, lets definitely pump the breaks.

 

In a really weird way (and a bit contradictory), I'm kind of happy that we're winning this way.

 

Do you guys remember how the Colts were always a threat to make a deep playoff runs in the 2000s when Manning was there?  In 2010 they go 10-6, good for first place in their division and then they lose in the Wild Card to the Jets.  2009, they were 14-2 and lost in the Super Bowl to the Saints.  2008, they were 12-4.  2007, they were 13-3.  2006, they were 12-4 and won the Super Bowl.  That's a string we'd ****ing kill for right now.  I mean, that's unfathomable to us.  Playoffs every year, two Super Bowl appearances and winning once in a 4 year span.  

 

And then in 2011 Manning gets hurt for the season, they go 2-14.  Curtis Painter, Dan Orlovsky and Kerry Collins were the quarterbacks.  And there was some publication, I can't remember which specifically, that said that Peyton Manning was the MVP, even though he was on the sidelines all year.

 

The message was clear: the Colts had really been the Peyton Manning Show for years and losing him to an injury exposed them for what they were, which was not a really great team.  They talked about how Manning himself accounted for 8-10 wins a year.  It was silly to think he was actually the MVP when he wasn't playing but the point was clear...he really carried a **** ton of value, more than anyone really understood.

 

The next year, they get Andrew Luck and were back to being a 12 win team.

 

I say all that to say this:  I'm kind of glad we're winning games without someone like Peyton Manning, without a true franchise quarterback.  It shows that there are good pieces in places and a sound support structure for when (more like, IF...) we do get that franchise quarterback.  

 

Having a Peyton Manning can easily mask a lot of other problems.  Winning without a guy like that?  You know you're building something special.  

[Warhead36]

I don't think this is a bad football team. I'd say we're about average. Good defense, bad offense.

[Riggo#44]

3 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I say all that to say this:  I'm kind of glad we're winning games without someone like Peyton Manning, without a true franchise quarterback.  It shows that there are good pieces in places and a sound support structure for when (more like, IF...) we do get that franchise quarterback.  

 

Having a Peyton Manning can easily mask a lot of other problems.  Winning without a guy like that?  You know you're building something special.

I'm sorry, Mr. Spiff, but are you telling me that Rivera and the Marties are NOT as bad at their job as some would maintain? No...not possible!

 

I've always been a running game fan, I mean I grew up watching the Skins with Riggins, George Rodgers, Timmy Smith (for one magnificent game), then came Earnest Byner, Stephen Davis, Clinton Portis...

 

I wonder if Sam Howell is being groomed as a plug-and-play QB in a year or two? 

[Zim489]

14 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Winning without a guy like that?  You know you're building something special.  

The problem is the extreme difficulty to keep winning that way. If you go through since 2011 season (post rookie pay scale) theres always defense teams that pop up every year. They have a short burst of 2-3 years of competitiveness before the roster turnover brings them down to a mediocre team. They spend the next 4-5 years trying to convince themselves they can keep their core together and just improve a bit to carry them to greatness. Occasionally it happens but more times then not they fade into playoff fighting but not real contenders. The Marvin Lewis Bengals. The Matt Schaub Texans. The most glaring is the Ron Rivera Panthers from 2016-2019. It took MVP Cam to get them to their SB. When he wasnt an MVP level the defense that started off great in the first half of the decade was waning by the second half as guys started to get paid else where.

 

For as difficult as it getting a great QB is, its arguably more difficult to stay on the great side of entire drafting building on a year to year consistent basis. Its too much of a crap shoot. 1-2 bad drafts and the entire plan falls to pieces. 

5 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

I wonder if Sam Howell is being groomed as a plug-and-play QB in a year or two? 

If thats the plan Ron and Co are even more out of touch of modern football than we all think. This doesnt happen any more. Kirk is about the only QB in the last 10-15 years who has accomplished this and even then hes won absolutely nothing of note. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Zim489

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

25 minutes ago, Commander PK said:

 

A few of the things I have observed about Taylor, even considering his shortcomings is that he seems to genuinely be excited and fired-up about being the QB of this team.  Not just a team, but THIS team.    

 

When was the last time we saw anybody that fired up to play QB for this team?  I saw it in Colt McCoy also when he got his chances.  I didn't see that kind of fire out of Cousins, Smith, or Wentz.  I didn't get a real chance to see it out of Fitzpatrick.  I'm not saying the others didn't care, I'm just saying I didn't see that kind of public enthusiasm out of them.  I didn't see that kind of fire in them during the games.  

I made a post the other day not necessarily making the exact point your making, but in the same vein.

 

Mine was more about how some of our fans go out of their way to make up positives, defend his real bad plays, etc.  But the point I was making is that I think Taylor is more realistic about who he is as a QB than our fans.  I think he knows he’s along for the ride and only tasked with not screwing it up.  I don’t think he would defend his awful throws that they defend.  You can see it in his enthusiasm when anyone in any phase of the team succeeds with his celebrations.  You can see it in how he chose to start buying the OL and now the RBs shoes after a win.  
 

I get why people like him for all those reasons.  But as for why we’re winning, I think Taylor and his attitude are way down on the list behind Turner, Robinson, AG, Terry, JDR, the defense, Ron, etc.  
 

25 minutes ago, Commander PK said:

When was the last time we saw anybody that fired up to play QB for this team?  I saw it in Colt McCoy also when he got his chances.  I didn't see that kind of fire out of Cousins, Smith, or Wentz.  I didn't get a real chance to see it out of Fitzpatrick.  I'm not saying the others didn't care, I'm just saying I didn't see that kind of public enthusiasm out of them.  I didn't see that kind of fire in them during the games.

I think that “fire” you speak of comes out of guys in different ways.  I think the reason why you see it on display so much from Taylor is because he’s undrafted and the underdog of all underdogs.  He knows how fortunate he is to be where he is and as I said above, he knows his role.  He knows that if the team wins, he has a career in this league wherever Scott Turner goes.  There is no bigger beneficiary of the team winning than Taylor Heinicke, and there’s nobody else on the roster that’s ever been further from that feeling than Taylor Heinicke.  I think that’s why that fire is on display so much.

Edited November 29, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Riggo#44]

13 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

If thats the plan Ron and Co are even more out of touch of modern football than we all think. This doesnt happen any more. Kirk is about the only QB in the last 10-15 years who has accomplished this and even then hes won absolutely nothing of note. 

 

You mean other than Aaron Rodgers--who sat for four years?

What about Patrick Mahomes, who sat for a year?

Or Jimmy Garoppolo, who sat for 2 years and is having a really good year, and has taken a team to a Super Bowl?

Brady didn't start right away either.

Neither did Jalen Hurts...

[Est.1974]

4 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

You mean other than Aaron Rodgers--who sat for four years?

What about Patrick Mahomes, who sat for a year?

Or Jimmy Garoppolo, who sat for 2 years and is having a really good year, and has taken a team to a Super Bowl?

Brady didn't start right away either.

Neither did Jalen Hurts...

I get what you are saying, but Aaron Rodgers didn’t exactly sit on the bench behind a Taylor Heinicke standard QB did he.

[Zim489]

Just now, Riggo#44 said:

 

You mean other than Aaron Rodgers--who sat for four years?

What about Patrick Mahomes, who sat for a year?

Or Jimmy Garoppolo, who sat for 2 years and is having a really good year, and has taken a team to a Super Bowl?

Brady didn't start right away either.

Neither did Jalen Hurts...

1st round

1st round 

2nd round

You cant be serious about brady being included over 20 years ago...

2nd round

 

World of difference from a 5th rounder. You talked about about sitting years. They arent planning their future on developing a 5th rounder. Get with the times man.

[Riggo#44]

Just now, Zim489 said:

1st round

1st round 

2nd round

You cant be serious about brady being included over 20 years ago...

2nd round

 

World of difference from a 5th rounder. You talked about about sitting years. They arent planning their future on developing a 5th rounder. Get with the times man.

 

I didn't make a statement one way or another, nor did I say Howell would be any good. I asked a question. There is evidence of Howell succeeding in college and having desirable traits: arm strength, mobility, deep ball accuracy. It's entirely possible they are developing him--we do have a very good QB coach. This is also an offense that would make it easy for a QB like Howell to succeed (assuming they fortify the OL). It's rare, but it does happen.

 

You clearly stated "that doesn't happen anymore other than Kirk." Which is demonstrably wrong, so you moved the goal posts. Which is fine, I didn't expect an honest argument from you. You hate Rivera so much, you'd prefer to lose to justify your position.

 

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

48 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

The problem is the extreme difficulty to keep winning that way. If you go through since 2011 season (post rookie pay scale) theres always defense teams that pop up every year. They have a short burst of 2-3 years of competitiveness before the roster turnover brings them down to a mediocre team. They spend the next 4-5 years trying to convince themselves they can keep their core together and just improve a bit to carry them to greatness. Occasionally it happens but more times then not they fade into playoff fighting but not real contenders. The Marvin Lewis Bengals. The Matt Schaub Texans. The most glaring is the Ron Rivera Panthers from 2016-2019. It took MVP Cam to get them to their SB. When he wasnt an MVP level the defense that started off great in the first half of the decade was waning by the second half as guys started to get paid else where.

 

For as difficult as it getting a great QB is, its arguably more difficult to stay on the great side of entire drafting building on a year to year consistent basis. Its too much of a crap shoot. 1-2 bad drafts and the entire plan falls to pieces. 

If thats the plan Ron and Co are even more out of touch of modern football than we all think. This doesnt happen any more. Kirk is about the only QB in the last 10-15 years who has accomplished this and even then hes won absolutely nothing of note. 

 

I agree, it's difficult to keep winning this way.  I'm not arguing against having a top flight quarterback.  I'd really like to have one.  But I'm glad we have a good foundation in place if we can land one in the next 1-2 years.

[Zim489]

So we have played the weakest schedule thus far outside of divisional opponents. 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

It’s fair to say that in hindsight, 2020 was the year of the QB and we missed that window being in awe of Chase Young.  

 

But since that time, what exactly could we have done?  Sure, you could get a net $20M and two third round picks back by going with Mariota, but we’d still be in the same position today looking for an actual franchise QB.

 

I’m failing to see how in 2021 or 2022 this regime missed an opportunity to draft their own franchise QB.  The only example is Fields who while electrifying in fantasy football for 4 weeks, still has a lot question marks.  He cost a few firsts to obtain, and who knows if the Giants would have been willing to offer us the same deal.

 

Even for 2023 it’s looking like Young or bust and to get him we’d have to be bad enough to get the #1 pick.  
 

I’m just not sure what is expected of this regime to solidify the QB position.  It’s not as if it’s been raining franchise QB’s and they have an umbrella.

[Zim489]

4 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I agree, it's difficult to keep winning this way.  I'm not arguing against having a top flight quarterback.  I'd really like to have one.  But I'm glad we have a good foundation in place if we can land one in the next 1-2 years.

I just dont see the answer out there. Want nothing to do with signing carr for 40-50 mil until his mid 30s. Jimmy G is a worse version. Draft isnt happening. So 2023 is already out for a QB room. So were looking at being exactly the same next year with likely less luck and up drafting 12-15 again and still be out of the running for the top QBs. 

 

Its really bleak. Its why some were so hell bent on tanking in 2020 and moving up in the draft in 2021. Unlikely to get that sort of top end talent at that spot in the draft for a while. QB drafting is becoming so wildly different than it was even just 5 years ago. Top talent isnt lasting into the teens any longer. 

[Commander PK]

12 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Its really bleak. Its why some were so hell bent on tanking in 2020 and moving up in the draft in 2021. Unlikely to get that sort of top end talent at that spot in the draft for a while. QB drafting is becoming so wildly different than it was even just 5 years ago. Top talent isn't lasting into the teens any longer. 

 

I did some research a while back and made a post, but I can't remember in which thread, where I showed that for the most part drafting a topflight "franchise" QB is a crap shoot.  You can pretty much find one anywhere, but who succeeds and who fails is very random.  Definitely not based on where you draft.  The top pick guarantees nothing.      

 

I believe having to draft in the top 3 of the draft to get a "franchise QB" is largely a myth.  The overall results in the free agency era speak for themselves.  Very few ever pan out that are taken that high, and the ones that end up having the best careers could have been drafted anywhere. 

 

The truth is very few of these guys exist on the planet, and nobody has quite figured out how to ensure you got the right one.  I come back to him because he's the most obvious choice.  Andrew Luck was considered to be a generational talent at QB.  Just ask the "Suck for Luck" crowd.  He had a good career, but he was not that guy.    

[profusion]

12 minutes ago, Commander PK said:

The truth is very few of these guys exist on the planet, and nobody has quite figured out how to ensure you got the right one.  I come back to him because he's the most obvious choice.  Andrew Luck was considered to be a generational talent at QB.  Just ask the "Suck for Luck" crowd.  He had a good career, but he was not that guy.    

 

Trevor Lawrence is confirming that even more. 

 

The problem with tanking in the NFL is that, unlike the NBA, you can't build a championship roster around one super-duper-star and a bunch of scrubs. To tank enough to get in on the first three picks, the rest of your roster has to be so bad that you're not even going to be able to put the superstar QB in a position to succeed for 4-5 years, if that. You end up not in Ron Rivera/Jeff Fisher Purgatory, but in the lower level of Hell that teams like the Jets, Browns and Jaguars reside in every year. Note that the Jets climbed out this year because of everything BUT QB play. The Browns played about as well with Jacoby Brissett as they did last year with Baker Mayfield.

[Riggo#44]

35 minutes ago, Commander PK said:

I did some research a while back and made a post, but I can't remember in which thread, where I showed that for the most part drafting a topflight "franchise" QB is a crap shoot.  You can pretty much find one anywhere, but who succeeds and who fails is very random.  Definitely not based on where you draft.  The top pick guarantees nothing.

I think it matters more WHERE you go, not WHEN you go. There is a reason the same 5-6 teams are always drafting in the top 10.

[Ball Security]

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

I didn't make a statement one way or another, nor did I say Howell would be any good. I asked a question. There is evidence of Howell succeeding in college and having desirable traits: arm strength, mobility, deep ball accuracy. It's entirely possible they are developing him--we do have a very good QB coach. This is also an offense that would make it easy for a QB like Howell to succeed (assuming they fortify the OL). It's rare, but it does happen.

 

You clearly stated "that doesn't happen anymore other than Kirk." Which is demonstrably wrong, so you moved the goal posts. Which is fine, I didn't expect an honest argument from you. You hate Rivera so much, you'd prefer to lose to justify your position.

 

 

Look, you clearly don’t understand how the modern NFL works.  Look at the top teams in the league: Eagles, Vikings, Cowboys, 49ers, Buffalo, KC, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Tennessee.  All of those teams are lead by QBs picked in the top 10.  
 

Wait.  You’re going to tell me it’s only a third?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

10 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

I think it matters more WHERE you go, not WHEN you go. There is a reason the same 5-6 teams are always drafting in the top 10.

This is a piece that I think gets severely missed.  Franchise QB’s generally aren’t born franchise QB’s.  They need to be developed.

 

Where you go, the culture, how you click with the coaching, the roster around you, stability, all of that gets filed under development.

Edited November 29, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[NickyJ]

2 hours ago, Commander PK said:

 

A few of the things I have observed about Taylor, even considering his shortcomings is that he seems to genuinely be excited and fired-up about being the QB of this team.  Not just a team, but THIS team.    

 

When was the last time we saw anybody that fired up to play QB for this team?  I saw it in Colt McCoy also when he got his chances.  I didn't see that kind of fire out of Cousins, Smith, or Wentz.  I didn't get a real chance to see it out of Fitzpatrick.  I'm not saying the others didn't care, I'm just saying I didn't see that kind of public enthusiasm out of them.  I didn't see that kind of fire in them during the games.  

 

Enthusiasm goes a long way with me.  I can forgive a lot when a guy has that kind of fire in him, and you know he is trying his best to win.  A personality like Taylor's is infectious. 

 

The question was asked on the junkies this morning do you think they would be 6-1 over the last 7 games with Wentz behind center.  I don't think they would.  Wentz takes a sack when Taylor scrambles and makes a throw.  Maybe if Wentz has to come back in at some point things are better than in September.  I hope they continue to find a way to win and we don't have to find out.  

The last time I saw a QB this fired up was Alex Smith when he was upset he was being benched for the Buccaneers game, Steven Montez when he was airing out his Haskins grievances on Twitter, and Kyle Allen when got the starting job.

 

I didn't see a whole lot of Garrett Gilbert during pre-game, but I bet he was pretty enthusiastic to start for the first time in forever when Covid hit.

 

We let a whole Super Bowl's worth of enthusiasm go in the QB locker room.

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, Zim489 said:

So we have played the weakest schedule thus far outside of divisional opponents. 

 

 

 

And the Giants are 31st with Philly at 29. 3 of the bottom 4 are from the east with dallas at 19 so not too far away. So what? It's all pretty meaningless. You can't just add and subtract who you want to make the stats look like you want them to. Well you can but it's not of any value. When you more accurately add the divsiional games back in to get the actual SOS, . the Giants have the #1 hardest and we are #3. Yea, that's because of 10 wins x2 from Philly and dallas's 8.You can't just pick and choose which part of the stat you want to use.  LOL  

 

You have to play who is in front of you. And i do not think anyone has said - wow we are playing a tough schedule. last place schedules seem to be easyier but not as much this year due to a tough division.  

 

2 hours ago, profusion said:

 

Trevor Lawrence is confirming that even more. 

 

The problem with tanking in the NFL is that, unlike the NBA, you can't build a championship roster around one super-duper-star and a bunch of scrubs. To tank enough to get in on the first three picks, the rest of your roster has to be so bad that you're not even going to be able to put the superstar QB in a position to succeed for 4-5 years, if that. You end up not in Ron Rivera/Jeff Fisher Purgatory, but in the lower level of Hell that teams like the Jets, Browns and Jaguars reside in every year. Note that the Jets climbed out this year because of everything BUT QB play. The Browns played about as well with Jacoby Brissett as they did last year with Baker Mayfield.

 

So Ron has found enough talent to field a team that can win 5 of 6 gm with a clear back-up with no arm and he is still a problem? Not really getting that. You can't blame him for the bad but then give him no credit for the good. Not directed at you unless ti applies. More a general statement. 

 

This is a solid roster. Is it perfect? Of course not. Glaring is the QB positioin but it's not like he has done nothing. What he has tried has not worked out. In fairness had he gone with the draft very few of his options have fiared very well. 

 

It's interesting those that have a problem with Ron were quick to say this is his entire roster when it was not playing well but now that they are playing well he is only responsible for the QB. Everything else he either just got lucky or someone else did it. 

 

He has had an aweful lot to deal with that is not football the past few years. Yet he has gotten the team back to playing meaningful ball in December. He may be gone due to new ownership and I am Ok with that. I think a new ownser needs to hire a GM who hires his own HC. None of this hold over garbage. But until then let's at least give the man credit for getting things going. D is stout! STs is above average. With a QB and a few oline help this could be a very dangerous team. 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by goskins10