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Summer of 2020---The Civil Unrest Thread--Read OP Before Posting (in memory of George Floyd)


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2 hours ago, China said:

Here's an article from 2013 with some predictions about what's happening now.

 

Mathematicians Predict the Future With Data From the Past

 

IN ISAAC ASIMOV'S classic science fiction saga Foundation, mathematics professor Hari Seldon predicts the future using what he calls psychohistory. Drawing on mathematical models that describe what happened in the past, he anticipates what will happen next, including the fall of the Galactic Empire.

 

 

I have to make it to 2070 for the cyberpunk version of 2020, then.

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"It's not the police who need to be retrained, it's the public. We have grown into a mouthy, mobile phone wielding, vulgar, uncivil society with no personal responsibility and the attitude of 'it's the other person's fault, you owe me'. A society where children grow up with no boundaries or knowledge or concern for civil society and personal responsibility.

When an officer says "Put your hands up," then put your hands up! Don't reach for something in your pocket, your lap, your seat. There's plenty of reason for a police officer to feel threatened, there have been multiple assaults and ambushes on police officers lately. Comply with requests from the officer, have your day in court. Don't mouth off, or fight, or refuse to comply... that escalates the situation.

 

Police officers are our sons and daughters, fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters. They're black, white, brown, all colors, all ethnicities, all faiths, male and female, they are us. They see the worst side of humanity... the raped children, the bloody mangled bodies of traffic victims, the bruised and battered victims of domestic violence, homicide victims, body parts... day after day.

 

They work holidays while we have festive meals with our families. They miss school events with their kids, birthdays, anniversaries, all those special occasions that we take for granted. They work in all types of weather, under dangerous conditions, for relatively low pay.

 

They have extensive training, but they are human. When there are numerous attacks on them, they become hyper vigilant for a reason, they have become targets. When a police officer encounters any person... any person, whether at a traffic stop, a street confrontation, an arrest, whatever... that situation has the potential to become life threatening. You, Mr & Mrs/Miss Civilian, also have the responsibility of keeping the situation from getting out of control.

 

Many law enforcement officers are Veterans. They've been in service to this nation most of their lives, whether on the battlefield or protecting us here at home. They are the only thing that stands between us and anarchy in the streets.

If you want to protect your child, teach them respect."

 

~ Sheriff David Clarke

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@zskins I, like most, feel the police culture has to improve. I also get that message from Sheriff Clarke and in all the 'we need to have conversations', I hear very little of that particular side. Unfortunately, any sympathy to law enforcement right now and you run the risk of 'not being aware'. I am saddened by the many unnecessary deaths and ongoing brutality in our country. But, to have a true conversation, I think everything has to be on the table. That will promote change and real conversation. 

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As terrified as I am at the thought of agreeing with David Clarke, I do think it's a legit point that yes, police officers do have a legitimate interest in protecting their own safety.  

 

No, that need for self defense does not justify a lot of the incidents we've seen.  To just invent a hypothetical, if a citizen is on his knees, but isn't laying on the ground and placing his hands behind his back on command, then hitting that citizen with a baton is not the police officer protecting his own safety.  It's an assault performed to require submission.  

 

Granted, it's also a straw man, too.  Nobody is saying that police officers don't have a need or right to defend themselves.  They're saying that "I told that protester to stop protesting, and he was still in the street anyway, so I hit him with my club a couple of times" isn't "police have to be able to defend themselves".  

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15 minutes ago, Larry said:

As terrified as I am at the thought of agreeing with David Clarke, I do think it's a legit point that yes, police officers do have a legitimate interest in protecting their own safety.  

 

No, that need for self defense does not justify a lot of the incidents we've seen.  To just invent a hypothetical, if a citizen is on his knees, but isn't laying on the ground and placing his hands behind his back on command, then hitting that citizen with a baton is not the police officer protecting his own safety.  It's an assault performed to require submission.  

 

Granted, it's also a straw man, too.  Nobody is saying that police officers don't have a need or right to defend themselves.  They're saying that "I told that protester to stop protesting, and he was still in the street anyway, so I hit him with my club a couple of times" isn't "police have to be able to defend themselves".  

 

 

Its also fun that as an officer he can sympathize with that fact that police are being made targets (they are) and thus are on edge, but cannot bring himself as a black man to understand the fact that black men are targets (they are) and thus are on edge. 

 

With a lot more honesty and maybe some humility he would be in the perfect position to have a healthy debate on the subject. But instead hes leading with force and expecting his victims to comply which is the most police thing ever. 

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Clarke has repeatedly called for mob violence in the past and is responsible for multiple deaths that he tried to cover up among other crimes.  

Also his bs skips over the fact that police are often instigators of violence and have killed and wounded many people who followed their orders or tried to to the best of their ability. 

(not to say that I don't emphasize with the tough situation police are in as part of their job)

Edited by visionary
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9 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Its also fun that as an officer he can sympathize with that fact that police are being made targets (they are) and thus are on edge, but cannot bring himself as a black man to understand the fact that black men are targets (they are) and thus are on edge. 

 

Well, yeah, but the black folks are targets because of their entitlement culture coupled with their long-term pattern of lawless behavior.  If they'd just straighten up and comply with rules and laws, then people wouldn't just assume that they''re dangerous thugs.  

 

(Yes, that's an intentional analogy.)  

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I’ll have this both ways.

 

1). I’ve known a lot of cops in my life.  Some were pretty terrible people, but the vast majority were/are solid people.  Middle class guys doing a very tough job and sometimes failing.
 

2). David Clarke is a piece of crap.

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The message and the messenger need to be uncoupled. Take who said it out of the equation and simply start the 'conversation'. The mistrust by both police and the African American community of one another needs more spotlight.

Edited by Bonez3
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3 minutes ago, Bonez3 said:

The message and the messenger need to be uncoupled. Take who said it out of the equation and simply start the 'conversation'. The mistrust by both police and the African American community of one another needs more spotlight. I wouldn't continue to mock it as prior posts have.

The mistrust isn't just among African Americans.  There is a significant racial element to the problem that makes it much worse for minorities, but a large part of the problem is the way police are taught to interact with and view others and each other.   Not to mention the rules and (despite what some might say) training that often turns good people into bad ones along with those who are in it for a power trip or to hurt people.  

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@visionary There is no doubt in my mind that police culture is in need of massive reform. That's blatantly obvious and has been for me. But, I also feel there is more to gain if we can have a real conversation the incorporates everything about this topic. I feel now is obviously an ideal time with so much attention, but I have heard very little in the way of actual conversation.

Edited by Bonez3
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20 minutes ago, Bonez3 said:

The message and the messenger need to be uncoupled. Take who said it out of the equation and simply start the 'conversation'. The mistrust by both police and the African American community of one another needs more spotlight.


Accountability first.  Justice first.  You can’t build trust when cops are allowed to beat you, shoot you, and lie (often under oath) with impunity.  Until people believe cops are held to some reasonable standard consistently, theres nothing to discuss. 

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I think Clarke misses the point.  Sure,  perhaps there are a lot of mouthy stupid criminals who deserve what they got, in the public. It’s so tempting I almost gave it a like. 
 

Police aren’t the judge and jury though. They should be there to deescalate so these deserving people can be judged, not shot in the back or choked to death. 
 

Police should be held to a higher standard than “the public”. Comparing his police to the public, the way he has, is a farce.

 

 

Edited by CousinsCowgirl84
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@Destino I agree, hard to build bridges with past injustices. But, everything that is wrong with America can be fixed with everything that is right. But I do feel there is a lot to discuss but emotions are understandably high. 

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More than a little distraught to see Kamala Harris calling for the officer that shot Blake to be charged. There’s a ton we don’t know about what happened. I’m not at all prepared to say that it wasn’t justified. We don’t know whether the knife was on him. We don’t know whether officers had a reason to view him as a threat for leaving in the car with his kids in it. We do know that he was being arrested for a prior warrant for a domestic dispute, so *very* possible the officers made a judgment that letting him get in the car posed a serious threat to the children. 
 

I spoke with my brother at length last night... he’s is a 28 year old deputy who has been with the force for two years. He spoke out after Floyd’s killing, but right now he’s feeling abandoned by the party he grew up with. I’m not sure I can blame him. There’s got to be a balance here. Not every police shooting is the same. Some are justified, though certainly you’d love to see the numbers significantly decrease across the board. 

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THIS DAY IN HISTORY - Martin Luther King, Jr. delivers "I Have a Dream" speech at the March on Washington

 

On the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C., the African American civil rights movement reaches its high-water mark when Martin Luther King, Jr., speaks to about 250,000 people attending the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. The demonstrators–Black and white, poor and rich–came together in the nation’s capital to demand voting rights and equal opportunity for African Americans and to appeal for an end to racial segregation and discrimination.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Bonez3 said:

@Destino I agree, hard to build bridges with past injustices. But, everything that is wrong with America can be fixed with everything that is right. But I do feel there is a lot to discuss but emotions are understandably high. 

I agree that things can be fixed.  The only thing holding America back is denial.  Once we get moving in the same direction nothing can stop us.  We need to stop pretending everything is great, that we’ve got the best of everything, and dedicate ourselves to improving our society.  
 

Pride is not a strength. 

 

 

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