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2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread


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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Rivera/Snyder/Hruney/Mayhew.  Don't know about Polian who runs pro.  Gribble I'd presume for sure.  Probably Stokes.    

See I think that it should only be those four as well. I feel like Gribble and Stokes can provide them with all the information they need, just provide the data and let the upper echelon make the decision. 

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24 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

See I think that it should only be those four as well. I feel like Gribble and Stokes can provide them with all the information they need, just provide the data and let the upper echelon make the decision. 

Yoda adding to that Mayhew, Hurney along with Polian will advise RR and in the end,  I believe RR makes the decision on his own.

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55 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

It doesn't work that way. Never has, never will. Top franchise QBs don't hit FA and if one demanded to be traded we'd have to give up probably three 1st round picks and more. Only situations where that might happen and where the guy isn't facing legal charges are Wilson and Rodgers. But both of those are still incredibly unlikely. You're playing some weird fantasy football in your head. 

You can force a QB to play 7 years.  After that, he's eligible for FA.  You're telling me that there's something in the CBA that says he can't say "F this garbage team, i'm winning a SB with Chase Young"?  Brady hit FA, btw.

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

Wow, guess he can do it lol. I did see they had hi at DT, 6 3 255 is small for DT but he can do it all. Heck they twice voted him teams toughest player.toughest 

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the Conrad Dobler in the dog.

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Special man; special moment.  Man, 13 days and counting!!!

 

 

Can't wait!

 

 

 

 

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Chris Simms with a hot take here. Rb rankings. 

 

1.Travis Etienne

2.Michael Carter

3. Javian Hawkins (who?)

4. Najee Harris

5.Javonte Williams

 

 

 

I generally like his takes, but don't love this list. In general, the unifying theme is that I think he downgrades a good bit for lack of traits. There are fast guys that don't make the RB list, but if you're slow, it will bump you down. 

 

He's the same way with QB's. Nailed Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. And the unifying theme there is...traits. Jackson of course also had production, but maybe I'm undervaluing elite traits. 

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2 hours ago, RWJ said:

Yoda adding to that Mayhew, Hurney along with Polian will advise RR and in the end,  I believe RR makes the decision on his own.

Makes sense, hopefully Rivera hired these people because he trusts their evaluation skills and takes their advice seriously. I mean it doesn't seem like Rivera hired them to be "yes men", which is good. 

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1 hour ago, Anselmheifer said:

I generally like his takes, but don't love this list. In general, the unifying theme is that I think he downgrades a good bit for lack of traits. There are fast guys that don't make the RB list, but if you're slow, it will bump you down. 

 

Eh, Carter isn't exactly traitsy.  5'7 with a 4.54 40.  Hawkins is tiny too.  Compare that to Najee who is 6'1 230 with a reported 4.45 40.  Simms's RB rankings are just nonsense.

 

The draft community just doesn't want to accept that Najee is as good as he is.  Same **** as happened with LeVeon Bell and Derek Henry.  Even Steven Jackson to a lesser extent.  The NFL and the draftnik world are just inexplicably and indefensibly skeptical of RBs like them and they've consistently gotten it wrong with them.

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To add, just watched Simms's justification of his Najee take and it is deadass wrong on every criticism.  Just an awful, dumbass group of takes he pulled straight from his butt that make it pretty clear to me he's not really watching film.  Not even doing the bare minimum to google 40 times really.  He sucks at this.

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Also wanted to say that Michael Lombardi's attempt to come off as bringing this big-brained interdisciplinary approach to drafting struck me as bizarre and inappropriate.  Consensus building is certainly important and demonstrably more valuable than trying to go it alone.  Synthesizing all of the data points that any good draft evaluation process would produce is impossible for anyone to do by themselves, let alone the types who populate a lot of NFL front offices.

 

Lombardi was not a good GM, he was ultimately unsuccessful, and I think he reached some wrong conclusions about the goal and best practices of successful team-building that are colored by his personal experience on the job.  His perspective isn't without value to us, he does have rare experience, but his conclusions are just off.  A good GM has the power and the wisdom to make good decisions period.  And a big part of that is surrounding yourself with people whose eyes you trust and who are also empowered to always give their honest takes.  Let's say we here in this thread were a front office and I am the GM with final say over draft decisions.  I would not do a better job at picking players by limiting my information and excluding people from the room, especially when they disagree with my initial take.  What I need to do is find other perspectives I respect and listen to them to try and understand what they're seeing and why they are seeing it.  After that point I can compare their information to my initial take and then it's up to me to determine who is right and who is wrong and come up with an actionable final take.  But I suffer from not having their perspective to add to mine.  There have been far too many times when I've come to realize my initial take wasn't right to think I'd be better off throwing out other perspectives, but I'm also confident and experienced enough to generally know when to trust my eyes and vision for what I'd be trying to build, and a good GM has to operate that way.

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59 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Eh, Carter isn't exactly traitsy.  5'7 with a 4.54 40.  Hawkins is tiny too.  Compare that to Najee who is 6'1 230 with a reported 4.45 40.  Simms's RB rankings are just nonsense.

 

The draft community just doesn't want to accept that Najee is as good as he is.  Same **** as happened with LeVeon Bell and Derek Henry.  Even Steven Jackson to a lesser extent.  The NFL and the draftnik world are just inexplicably and indefensibly skeptical of RBs like them and they've consistently gotten it wrong with them.

A smart team takes Najee. Zag when other teams are zigging. One of the many reasons why Henry is so dominant is because defenses are extremely small these days and he is bigger than most LBers. 

 

Najee is quite big for a RB these days at 6'2 230, plus he's athletic enough. 

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6 hours ago, LetMeSeeYourWarFace21 said:

 

 

Wow, I'll take him...........where is he ranked amongst the WRs coming out? I havent heard his name mentioned....

 

 

 

T. Wallace should be in the third round range.  He's been mentioned though plenty of times on this thread especially by me.  I think he will be a good Z receiver for some team, maybe ours?

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6 hours ago, Anselmheifer said:

Chris Simms with a hot take here. Rb rankings. 

 

1.Travis Etienne

2.Michael Carter

3. Javian Hawkins (who?)

4. Najee Harris

5.Javonte Williams

 

 

 

I generally like his takes, but don't love this list. In general, the unifying theme is that I think he downgrades a good bit for lack of traits. There are fast guys that don't make the RB list, but if you're slow, it will bump you down. 

 

He's the same way with QB's. Nailed Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. And the unifying theme there is...traits. Jackson of course also had production, but maybe I'm undervaluing elite traits. 


List is garbage.

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7 hours ago, GothSkinsFan said:

You can force a QB to play 7 years.  After that, he's eligible for FA.  You're telling me that there's something in the CBA that says he can't say "F this garbage team, i'm winning a SB with Chase Young"?  Brady hit FA, btw.

 

No, I'm telling you it doesn't happen. And that's not an opinion...modern NFL history has shown it. Teams with top franchise QBs keep them. Brady was 42 when he hit FA but he's a complete anomaly and is probably getting ready to retire.

 

Hell, the Cowboys don't even know if Dak can still play and they already gave him a blockbuster deal...and he is barely a top 10 guy. Teams know they have to have franchise QBs to win consistently nowadays, so they'll keep them at almost any cost.

 

Name a top QB who isn't over 40 and isn't the greatest to ever play the game who hit FA. And I mean a top 5 level QB, not a guy like Cousins who got overpaid.

 

Again, you're living in a fantasy land.

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Since Chris Simms had Carter ranked so high, it actually makes him a target and I get it.  That's high for Carter.    But to defend him some...

 

I like Najee and Etienne and J Williams over Carter and by a nice margin.  Carter thought to me is in that next grouping along with Sermon.  Sermon and Carter are my favorite gets next after the top 3.

 

Michael Carter IMO has a lot of potential to be a good complementary back for a team.  

 

He is a hair under 5 '8 over 200 pounds.  He ran in the low 4.5's.  Brugler has him at 4.5 on the dot. He had elite scores in with the shuttle and 3 cone.  Those elite metrics play into his style of play which is stop-go, sharp cuts, change of direction, elusive as heck.  And for a dude that's not that big, he's feisty and breaks tackles.

 

Sims IMO got carried away but I do get the charm of Michael Carter, I'd be jazzed if we got him in the 3rd-4th round.  He and Sermon are my tops favs after the big 3.

 

Then to me there is a drop off and some I like after those are:  Herbert, Gainwell, Jefferson, Hubbard who to me are all very close. 

 

I liked watching Stevenson at times but his pro day made me pause some. 

 

I've watched some Javian Hawkins.  He's not a bad get IMO in the later rounds.  Elusive-feast or famine type of runner.  Simms clearly got carried away with I gather his explosive plays.

 

If we are going with smallish fast backs I like Kene Nwangwu in the late rounds who can also return kicks and Pooka Williams. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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9 hours ago, DWinzit said:

Yeah that is ironic. I don't like Eubanks either, although I must say both he and Mason were both under utilized. Mason has a lot of potential. With emphasis on defensive mobility DB's and LBs are quicker also smaller. A good lead FB/move TE would blow those guys up letting Gibson run wild! Bring in Mason! lol


Supposedly he is one of Harbaugh’s favorite players he has had

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4 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Also wanted to say that Michael Lombardi's attempt to come off as bringing this big-brained interdisciplinary approach to drafting struck me as bizarre and inappropriate.  Consensus building is certainly important and demonstrably more valuable than trying to go it alone.  Synthesizing all of the data points that any good draft evaluation process would produce is impossible for anyone to do by themselves, let alone the types who populate a lot of NFL front offices.

 

Lombardi was not a good GM, he was ultimately unsuccessful, and I think he reached some wrong conclusions about the goal and best practices of successful team-building that are colored by his personal experience on the job.  His perspective isn't without value to us, he does have rare experience, but his conclusions are just off.  A good GM has the power and the wisdom to make good decisions period.  And a big part of that is surrounding yourself with people whose eyes you trust and who are also empowered to always give their honest takes.  Let's say we here in this thread were a front office and I am the GM with final say over draft decisions.  I would not do a better job at picking players by limiting my information and excluding people from the room, especially when they disagree with my initial take.  What I need to do is find other perspectives I respect and listen to them to try and understand what they're seeing and why they are seeing it.  After that point I can compare their information to my initial take and then it's up to me to determine who is right and who is wrong and come up with an actionable final take.  But I suffer from not having their perspective to add to mine.  There have been far too many times when I've come to realize my initial take wasn't right to think I'd be better off throwing out other perspectives, but I'm also confident and experienced enough to generally know when to trust my eyes and vision for what I'd be trying to build, and a good GM has to operate that way.

 

I've heard Lombardi elaborate on this point several times in interviews.  His point is that while it should be a collobrative process to accrue information on prospects and discuss them and that includes fleshing out disagreements -- in the end it should be one vision/one guy making the call versus a committee vote. So if you got a GM you trust like lets say Chris Ballard with the Colts, he should listen to everyone but in the end its his call versus him just having one vote lets say among a group of 5.  He believes if you got a GM let him be the architect who factors everyone's opinion but let him have the final conclusion versus just being one voice in the mix.

 

Based on leaks about the WFT operation in recent years, everyone had a vote including Kyle Smith.  Though Kyle who was considered by most in the building as the sharpest evaluator didn't have final say. Instead he was just a vote.  And judging by leaks at least two of the first rounders taken in recent years weren't the guys he preferred and in one case he was really hardcore against the pick. 

 

The wildcard with this team has been the owner having final say and unlike most other owners he will weigh in and override objections from his personnel staff.  Apparently the Eagles have had a similar situation.  Jerry Jones used to do the same but supposedly in recent years he's backed off and allowed Will McClay to make the call. 

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5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Eh, Carter isn't exactly traitsy.  5'7 with a 4.54 40.  Hawkins is tiny too.  Compare that to Najee who is 6'1 230 with a reported 4.45 40.  Simms's RB rankings are just nonsense.

 

The draft community just doesn't want to accept that Najee is as good as he is.  Same **** as happened with LeVeon Bell and Derek Henry.  Even Steven Jackson to a lesser extent.  The NFL and the draftnik world are just inexplicably and indefensibly skeptical of RBs like them and they've consistently gotten it wrong with them.

 

5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

To add, just watched Simms's justification of his Najee take and it is deadass wrong on every criticism.  Just an awful, dumbass group of takes he pulled straight from his butt that make it pretty clear to me he's not really watching film.  Not even doing the bare minimum to google 40 times really.  He sucks at this.

Steve, please stop holding back and let us know what you really think of Simms list :806:

Pretty sure we are all on board with you on the list. Simms likes to get attention by making different lists than everyone else posts

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There are a lot of mocks where WFT takes Toney. This always leaves me uninspired. There are so many other WR's I like better that will be available later.

 

The closer we get the draft the more I want WFT to trade back to collect more day 2 picks. Would love a LT, TE, LB, DB, WR, RB and maybe QB by the end of the 4th.

 

@Skinsinparadise I had a chance to review Milne and you are correct, he can separate. He does a nice job as a route runner setting up the DB's. What is he like a 4th rounder?

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4 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

There are a lot of mocks where WFT takes Toney. This always leaves me uninspired.

 

Me too because the position is so deep this year. Chase, Waddle, Smith or Bateman are the only WR's I'd want in the 1st.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

There are a lot of mocks where WFT takes Toney. This always leaves me uninspired. There are so many other WR's I like better that will be available later.

 

 

He's not my top receiver.  I am working on my rankings, I got him at #8.  I think he's overrated by some. But for me uninspiring wouldn't be what comes to mind for Toney.  He's got his faults but he's a pretty exciting player.  He and Rondale Moore are insane YAC guys on video game crazy level.  I worry though about both of their abilities to stay healthy the way they play.  Both have already struggled with that in college and I'd expect that to continue in the pros.  

 

I wouldn't touch Toney in the first though.  Late 2nd is a different story.  But if Schrager is right, he won't be there in the late 2nd.  That's cool with me.  Schrager who isn't a draftnik type at all -- is though typically plugged in.  So while I doubt Toney goes top 15, I wouldn't be shocked if he goes in the first.  Personally, I don't like him in the first but late 2nd while he wouldn't be my top choice even there I wouldn't hate Toney at all at 51. 

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

 

 

@Skinsinparadise I had a chance to review Milne and you are correct, he can separate. He does a nice job as a route runner setting up the DB's. What is he like a 4th rounder?

 

6th round?  He's measurables are just OK.  And some (me included) feel that its relevant what type of competition you are facing.  BYU wasn't exactly facing killer opponents.  Same issue I have in judging Matt Bushman at TE, who I also I see in that 6th round range give or take. 

Screen Shot 2021-04-17 at 8.40.41 AM.png

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Toney worries me. He could be Percy Harvin. He could also be Tavon Austin. I'm not sure I'd take him with our 2nd. Would depend who else is available at WR as well as other positions and what we did in round 1 as well.

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7 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Eh, Carter isn't exactly traitsy.  5'7 with a 4.54 40.  Hawkins is tiny too.  Compare that to Najee who is 6'1 230 with a reported 4.45 40.  Simms's RB rankings are just nonsense.

 

The draft community just doesn't want to accept that Najee is as good as he is.  Same **** as happened with LeVeon Bell and Derek Henry.  Even Steven Jackson to a lesser extent.  The NFL and the draftnik world are just inexplicably and indefensibly skeptical of RBs like them and they've consistently gotten it wrong with them.

 

You can't include Leveon Bell.  He struggled at his college size in the NFL, then lost 25 pounds and became much better as a normal sized back.

 

Also, Najee is a good back, but he's not like Henry or Jackson.  Those were legitimately big dudes.  Najee is just above average.  Most RB's are around 220.  Najee is 230.  Henry and Jackson are what, 240-245?

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7 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

To add, just watched Simms's justification of his Najee take and it is deadass wrong on every criticism.  Just an awful, dumbass group of takes he pulled straight from his butt that make it pretty clear to me he's not really watching film.  Not even doing the bare minimum to google 40 times really.  He sucks at this.

 

Yup. That's why I posted it. I found it interesting that his hit rate on QB's was so good, but that his other takes aren't. I'd say that Simms' take on RB's doesn't just make it look like he didn't watch film, it made it look like he didn't watch football. How many times did Najee look like the best player on a loaded Alabama team? His take on the DB's was also bizarre. Had Tyson Campbell super high and Jaycee Horn out of the top 5. 

 

Also, I was watching JOK, and he's such a physical hit stick type player AND so good in coverage. I'm really starting to like the idea of adding him. In watching his video though, I couldn't help but notice Etienne. Watch the video below at 2:11. JOK intercepts the ball, slams into Etienne, has a running start, but Etienne is still able to accelerate and catch JOK from behind. Etienne's acceleration is just so special. 

 

 

 

Also, I love Jaycee Horn and if he falls, I'd take him. He's not going to fall. Brett Kohllmann's video on Horn is great and worth a watch. Likes him better than any DB since Jalen Ramsey. I don't want him in conference! And, I'd consider a small move up to get him. Can you imagine the upgrade in the secondary with WJIII and Horn on the outside, Fuller inside and Moreland as number 4? Best CB's in the NFL to go with the best DL?

 

 

In any case, while adding Horn isn't realistic, I would like to add some developmental length and speed at CB. Maybe 3rd or 4th round. Based on the WFT zoom interviews, they are also looking at CB. 

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