2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[JamesMadisonSkins]

@skinnythats me. I stand corrected. He’s a FA after 2022. Off season 2023. Although we could certainly extend him. He’s a very solid RT. I’d still consider drafting a OT and OG though because even if Charles emerges as an OG or LT/RT you don’t know where and for certain and I would be preparing for the departure of Scherff 

[skinny21]

24 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

@skinnythats me. I stand corrected. He’s a FA after 2022. Off season 2023. Although we could certainly extend him. He’s a very solid RT. I’d still consider drafting a OT and OG though because even if Charles emerges as an OG or LT/RT you don’t know where and for certain and I would be preparing for the departure of Scherff 

All good, in fact, I don’t think I’d seen your post when I started mine (I got interrupted writing it).  Just see it keep popping up and wanted to make sure we’re all on the same page.  

And I’m all for succession planning.  Wouldn’t bother me if they went oline in the 1st and 2nd or 1st and 3rd, etc.  Heck, I’d even consider trading Moses next year (or Scherff this year) depending on how things shake out for us vis-a-vis Charles and the draft.

 

@SkinsinparadiseI’m with you that it’s Darrisaw or trade back in that scenario.  Trading back, you’ve got a lot of really good options - Moehring, Newsome/Farley, Bateman/etc, Jamin/Zaven, Jenkins/AVT, Etienne, etc.  If they like some of the 2nd Rd tackles a lot, they could grab a guy at a position with a bigger drop off and then trade up (with a lesser pick?) in the 2nd for their tackle.  All the options could make for a busy draft for the FO...

[86 Snyder]

Just catching up and lord have mercy, yall really still advocating a runningback at 19??  I respect @KDawg and @Skinsinparadise opinions a ton but you're way way off on this one.  And seems @stevemcqueen1 is on board with Etienne which is just embarrasing.

 

Adding an expensive RB when we have glaring holes at LT, MLB, FS, and TE would be malpractice.  Just upgrade the Barber role and move on.  

[Burgundy Yoda]

6 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

Just catching up and lord have mercy, yall really still advocating a runningback at 19??  I respect @KDawg and @Skinsinparadise opinions a ton but you're way way off on this one.  And seems @stevemcqueen1 is on board with Etienne which is just embarrasing.

 

Adding an expensive RB when we have glaring holes at LT, MLB, FS, and TE would be malpractice.  Just upgrade the Barber role and move on.  

It's not option 1 for me but if Ron wants a 2-headed beast, and wants to slow the game down and rely on the defense, im for it.

[86 Snyder]

12 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

It's not option 1 for me but if Ron wants a 2-headed beast, and wants to slow the game down and rely on the defense, im for it.

 

You don't need Najee Harris to do that.  And if you draft Etienne or any other RB not named Najee in this class, you still can't do it anyway.

 

Gibson and McKissic are more than enough to keep the running game afloat.  Id be combing the veteran market for a Barber upgrade. Mark Ingram for instance would have been a very good fit.  Feed Gibson.  Get me a LT or LB in the 1st.  The only thing worse than taking a RB at 19 would be getting another Guard.

[Die Hard]

Last year’s 19th overall pick and contract.

 

Damon Arnette signed a 4 year, $13,418,540 contract with the Las Vegas Raiders, including a $7,318,940 signing bonus, $13,418,540 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $3,354,635. In 2021, Arnette will earn a base salary of $1,219,934, while carrying a cap hit of $3,049,669.

 
So what, that amounts to $4M cap hit between Gibson and Harris for the position of RB?!?!

 

Im missing how this is somehow a self-indulgent luxury item. This isn’t a backbreaking rookie contract by any means. That’s why you go for talent and impact.

 

If Darrisaw is gone, you take Najee.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rolo Tomasie]

I'm surprised at the discussion of moving Saadiq Charles to G. When he was in the draft last year and when I watched him at LSU, I saw quick feet and a lot of athleticism. The question to me was, is he big enough and strong enough for an NFL run scheme? He was not exactly a mauler in the run game. Doesn't seem like the typical college OT that you would move to G in the NFL.

[86 Snyder]

1 minute ago, Die Hard said:

Last year’s 19th overall pick and contract.

 

Damon Arnette signed a 4 year, $13,418,540 contract with the Las Vegas Raiders, including a $7,318,940 signing bonus, $13,418,540 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $3,354,635. In 2021, Arnette will earn a base salary of $1,219,934, while carrying a cap hit of $3,049,669.

 
So what, that amounts to $4M cap hit between Gibson and Harris for the position of RB?!?!

 

Im missing how this is somehow a self-indulgent luxury item. This isn’t a backbreaking rookie contract by any means. That’s why you go for talent and impact.

 

If Darrisaw is gone, you take Najee.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When I said expensive, I was referring to draft capital, not salary.  If we didn't already have a very good back in Gibson, I could entertain the argument.  People want to take touches away from a him AND spend a 1st to do it??  Absolutely nuts.

[Die Hard]

Just now, 86 Snyder said:

 

When I said expensive, I was referring to draft capital, not salary.  If we didn't already have a very good back in Gibson, I could entertain the argument.  People want to take touches away from a him AND spend a 1st to do it??  Absolutely nuts.

 
Gibson is going to get 12-15 touches a game. That’s what he’s built for. 
 

That leaves lots of carries to account for.

[KDawg]

35 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

Just catching up and lord have mercy, yall really still advocating a runningback at 19??  I respect @KDawg and @Skinsinparadise opinions a ton but you're way way off on this one.  And seems @stevemcqueen1 is on board with Etienne which is just embarrasing.

 

Adding an expensive RB when we have glaring holes at LT, MLB, FS, and TE would be malpractice.  Just upgrade the Barber role and move on.  

I think you missed a ton of context.

 

I have said, multiple times, that if Sewell, Slater or Darrisaw is on board they are my #1. 
 

Zaven/Jamin are definitely big gets but if we could trade back for them that’s where I’d go next.

 

If Smith, Chase, Waddle or Pitts were on the board I’d take them ahead of Najee, too. 
 

I wouldn’t take Teven Jenkins over Najee. JOK maybe. 
 

Horn/Surtain good chance I’d take over Najee as well. 
 

I don’t have a ton of love for Etienne personally. Good player but not a consideration as a first imo. 
 

Given the scenario getting Najee for 5 years for peanuts and then a possible franchise tag is a good add. We cannot rely on Gibson to carry the load. That’s not where he maximizes our value. Putting wear on his tires makes him lose effectiveness. And if he goes down McKissick ain’t it. 
 

To be clear, I’m not married to Najee. But I’d love that selection given the scenario provided. 

[86 Snyder]

Just now, Die Hard said:

 
Gibson is going to get 12-15 touches a game. That’s what he’s built for. 
 

That leaves lots of carries to account for.

 

There's no way you can tell me adding Najee would not take touches away from Gibson.  It's impossible.

 

We rolled the dice on a risky athlete projecting him to become an actual running back, he exceeded every expectation, and here we are talking about acquiring the most expensive back in the draft.  Makes zero sense.

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think you missed a ton of context.

 

I have said, multiple times, that if Sewell, Slater or Darrisaw is on board they are my #1. 
 

Zaven/Jamin are definitely big gets but if we could trade back for them that’s where I’d go next.

 

If Smith, Chase, Waddle or Pitts were on the board I’d take them ahead of Najee, too. 
 

I wouldn’t take Teven Jenkins over Najee. JOK maybe. 
 

Horn/Surtain good chance I’d take over Najee as well. 
 

I don’t have a ton of love for Etienne personally. Good player but not a consideration as a first imo. 
 

Given the scenario getting Najee for 5 years for peanuts and then a possible franchise tag is a good add. We cannot rely on Gibson to carry the load. That’s not where he maximizes our value. Putting wear on his tires makes him lose effectiveness. And if he goes down McKissick ain’t it. 
 

To be clear, I’m not married to Najee. But I’d love that selection given the scenario provided. 

 

I hear you but there's just no scenario where I take Najee for this team at 19.  Trade back.  Trade UP.  Just can't leave this draft with a RB in the 1st.  And thankfully I don't think the team is even remotely considering it.

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

There's no way you can tell me adding Najee would not take touches away from Gibson.  It's impossible.

 

We rolled the dice on a risky athlete projecting him to become an actual running back, he exceeded every expectation, and here we are talking about acquiring the most expensive back in the draft.  Makes zero sense.

 

I hear you but there's just no scenario where I take Najee for this team at 19.  Trade back.  Trade UP.  Just can't leave this draft with a RB in the 1st.  And thankfully I don't think the team is even remotely considering it.

Problem with trades is they require a partner.

 

I take Harris and don’t look back if the situation dictates it.

 

If we can move back? Sure. On board. I like Moehrig, Sterns, Cisco and Holland at FS as well. But they, other than Moehrig, are second and third round types. 
 

Werner/Sterns solves two huge holes in my opinion. Radunz/Leatherwood in the second are fantastic.

 

I don’t think judging the draft just on the first rounder is fair. Gotta see it play out.

[Die Hard]

https://www.nbcsports.com/edge/football/nfl/player/60021/antonio-gibson
 

15 games played last year. 2 games (20 carries), 1 game (19 carries), 1game (16 carries), 11 games with 14 and under carries.

 

It won’t be necessary to take away Gibson’s carries.

 

And you know what Gibson doesn’t do a lot of? Carries in the red zone last year.

 

Harris might help with that?

Edited April 10, 2021 by Die Hard

[86 Snyder]

3 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

https://www.nbcsports.com/edge/football/nfl/player/60021/antonio-gibson
 

15 games played last year. 2 games (20 carries), 1 game (19 carries), 1game (16 carries), 11 games with 14 and under carries.

 

It won’t be necessary to take away Gibson’s carries.

 

This is not proving the point that you think it is.  Quite the opposite, actually.

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by 86 Snyder

[Die Hard]

Just now, 86 Snyder said:

 

This is not proving the point that you think it is.

Clearly. You’ve made up your mind a long time ago. You’re the only one holding on dearly to it. 

[Dark Acre]

With Siq Chuck's feet and athletecism, move him to TE2.  Go old-school like Gibbs mk1.  Dude can get downfield too. He was a soccer player but he played goalie so he did use his hands w/o being penalized.  WFT doesn't need a great LT, just a competent one.  Get Gibby on a screen or Samuel on a reverse with Siq leading the way, paloffs with a winning record!

[86 Snyder]

2 minutes ago, Die Hard said:

Clearly. You’ve made up your mind a long time ago. You’re the only one holding on dearly to it. 

 

Hold up...You quote me stats of Gibson not getting enough carries and are saying adding a 1st round RB will somehow help that cause?  Pardon if I can't do the requisite mental gymnastics.

 

It's moot anyway though.  There's not a whiff of a scent to this happening.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

From Rhiannon Walker, it sounds like anybody the team might want to vet.  Character concerns, work ethic issues, etc are likely off the board.  Rivera & Co don't like not being in a room with a prospect and asking questions face to face. 

 

"He said it’s harder to hide something when you’re face to face with someone while asking them questions."

 

If they could have met with iffy prospects at the combine, it's possible they would have felt more comfortable taking them, but from the tone it sounds like it's a big no.  Rivera & Co don't want any uncertainty in this draft class.  Another vibe I get from reading beatwriters takes.  Rivera thinks he needs to have a high quality draft class that produces as rookies.  The goal for this is to make the roster seem more attractive for veteran QB's.  They think they struck out on Stafford due to Stafford thinking the Rams had a better roster.  So if Football Team looks pretty attractive to veteran QB's in 2022, then they think they can trade for a good QB.

 

I think some rules can be established here for likely prospects:

1) No raw prospects (might be relaxed for the 3rd round?)

2) No lingering medical issues (Caleb Farley, Landon Dickerson)

3) No character concerns

4) Fit into positions with open competition for playing time

 

Rhiannon mentions these are things that seem to worry the team the most:

- Linebacker

- 2nd TE

- Safety

- OL Depth

- CB Depth

 

Positions like WR are unlikely unless the draft goes weird and the guy is clearly BPA.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

48 minutes ago, Rolo Tomasie said:

I'm surprised at the discussion of moving Saadiq Charles to G. When he was in the draft last year and when I watched him at LSU, I saw quick feet and a lot of athleticism. The question to me was, is he big enough and strong enough for an NFL run scheme? He was not exactly a mauler in the run game. Doesn't seem like the typical college OT that you would move to G in the NFL.

No not necessarily. I think he could be a Guard (team beat guys have alluded to that idea a lot). Best case scenario is he emerges as a legitimate LT and you have a good problem. Drafting a Darrisaw at 19 or Leatherwood at 51 ... if Charles becomes a legit LT candidate this year, you flip one/other to RT. And you have 2 more years of Moses but under essentially no guaranteed $$. So you either move on from Moses or you have an awesome swing Tackle. Essentially what we faced this year at DE with Kerrigan. 
 

But if we drafted Darrisaw and Charles becomes a bonafide LT candidate, I think you kick him in to LG like Dallas did with La’el Collins when they got him as an UDFA until he’s needed at either Tackle spot ... Dallas moved Collins to RT 

Edited April 10, 2021 by JamesMadisonSkins

[actorguy1]

 

[FootballZombie]

McK does not weigh 200 lbs. He is not built to take any kind of sizable role in the rushing game. If  he is forced to, there is a good chance he breaks. He can give you 80 attempts across a season, but he can't walk out there and give you 15 rushes in a single game. Never has in his career and its not fair to expect him to be able too.

 

Gibby is tasked with being the lead back and contribute extra touches in the passing game. That is a lot of punishment for a guy who has never had to put that kind of load on his body, with only a smattering of rush attempts in college. His body is not trained to handle that level of destruction. and it showed over the course of the season. He will be a little better prepared for it this year, as his body adjusts to the rigors, but even expecting him to be perfectly fine with 250 touches next year is pushing it.

 

That puts a lot of responsibility on the third back. Its why Barber got over 90 rushes last year. there is no way Gibson and McK can handle that many rush attempts and contribute extra touches in the passing game. That third guy has to give you 100 rushes, especially with a longer season.

 

A bellcow can do that. It may not be the biggest need, but it is a need

 

 

 

 

 

[CommanderInTheRye]

1 hour ago, Die Hard said:

 
Gibson is going to get 12-15 touches a game. That’s what he’s built for. 
 

That leaves lots of carries to account for.

 

 

Agreed.

 

Plus, Gibson’s a toe tapping quick cut and go rb coming off serious turf toe in his first season. Turf toe has a tendency to reoccur. His style of running puts a great deal of stress on his toes. Gibson, at this point in his career, is much better served as a “control the number of carries” home run hitter than as a true 20+ carry/game work horse.

 

If we have no better options at 19 I would be in favor of trading down to the mid to late 20s to either take whichever of the top two rbs remain, the bpa at a position of need, or even trade down again into the top of the second round.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by TrancesWithWolves

[skinny21]

30 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

I think some rules can be established here for likely prospects:

1) No raw prospects (might be relaxed for the 3rd round?)

2) No lingering medical issues (Caleb Farley, Landon Dickerson)

3) No character concerns

4) Fit into positions with open competition for playing time

 

Rhiannon mentions these are things that seem to worry the team the most:

- Linebacker

- 2nd TE

- Safety

- OL Depth

- CB Depth

 

Positions like WR are unlikely unless the draft goes weird and the guy is clearly BPA.

Wonder if we see more seniors.  Seems surprising we wouldn’t go for a receiver given the class depth, (maybe) the desire to lure a qb, the fact Humphries and Cam are FAs next year, and considering we could still use a starter on the outside.

[86 Snyder]

41 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

McK does not weigh 200 lbs. He is not built to take any kind of sizable role in the rushing game. If  he is forced to, there is a good chance he breaks. He can give you 80 attempts across a season, but he can't walk out there and give you 15 rushes in a single game. Never has in his career and its not fair to expect him to be able too.

 

Gibby is tasked with being the lead back and contribute extra touches in the passing game. That is a lot of punishment for a guy who has never had to put that kind of load on his body, with only a smattering of rush attempts in college. His body is not trained to handle that level of destruction. and it showed over the course of the season. He will be a little better prepared for it this year, as his body adjusts to the rigors, but even expecting him to be perfectly fine with 250 touches next year is pushing it.

 

That puts a lot of responsibility on the third back. Its why Barber got over 90 rushes last year. there is no way Gibson and McK can handle that many rush attempts and contribute extra touches in the passing game. That third guy has to give you 100 rushes, especially with a longer season.

 

A bellcow can do that. It may not be the biggest need, but it is a need

 

 

 

 

 

 

Without a doubt, it is a need.  McKissic is exactly as you described and his role is pretty clear.  We very much need a reliable 3rd back.  We definitely don't need that to be a highly leveraged acquisition though.  Guys like Jamal Williams, Carlos Hyde or Mark Ingram would have filled the duties just fine.  Or take a look at someone like Trey Sermon if he slips into the 4th round or later.  I'm just saying, this is not a position that requires and exotic remedy.  That's not meant to downplay its importance, just trying to accurately label it.  You don't have to pay through the nose for a grinder that can take 5-10 carries a game with some short yardage duties mixed in.  And just to be clear where I stand on Barber...he stinks.  Good blocker.  Otherwise terrible.

 

It really comes down to roster construction.  Spending the 19th pick on a RB or the 5th pick and 2 franchise tags on a Guard are the worst ways to build a team because you're allocating very valuable assets on the most interchangeable and least valuable positions in the game.  If you're going to dedicate those kinds of resources they better be for elite talents like Saquon and Quentin Nelson, not merely very good talents like Scherff and Najee.

 

I like Najee.  He's going to be a good RB and sort of a Henry-lite.  A team like Pittsburgh should be looking at him very closely and if I'm a Steelers fan I got no problem spending 24 on him.  He just doesn't fit our situation right now with any reasonability.

Edited April 11, 2021 by 86 Snyder

[method man]

38 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

McK does not weigh 200 lbs. He is not built to take any kind of sizable role in the rushing game. If  he is forced to, there is a good chance he breaks. He can give you 80 attempts across a season, but he can't walk out there and give you 15 rushes in a single game. Never has in his career and its not fair to expect him to be able too.

 

Gibby is tasked with being the lead back and contribute extra touches in the passing game. That is a lot of punishment for a guy who has never had to put that kind of load on his body, with only a smattering of rush attempts in college. His body is not trained to handle that level of destruction. and it showed over the course of the season. He will be a little better prepared for it this year, as his body adjusts to the rigors, but even expecting him to be perfectly fine with 250 touches next year is pushing it.

 

That puts a lot of responsibility on the third back. Its why Barber got over 90 rushes last year. there is no way Gibson and McK can handle that many rush attempts and contribute extra touches in the passing game. That third guy has to give you 100 rushes, especially with a longer season.

 

A bellcow can do that. It may not be the biggest need, but it is a need

 

 

 

 

 

You guys keep glossing over the fact that @86 Snyder has suggested that they go sign a back on the cheap over drafting Najee. Signing Alfred Morris on the minimum as a backup for Gibson and to compete with Lamar Miller is a better option vs drafting Najee

 

There is also always a trade partner for the #19 pick in the draft. The question is what are you willing to take back. My bar for the return is lower in this draft than most drafts of it means multiple rd 2 and rd 3 picks. A number of rd 2 guys in this draft will become Pro Bowlers or longtime starters at the minimum