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2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread


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5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I'm not sure I agree with some of your takes on Zaven, this one in particular.  IMO Zaven is quite physical into contact, especially in the hole.  He's a force who routinely blows ballcarriers back when he comes at them downhill.  And Zaven shrugs off blockers and plays through them better than any of the other LBers in the class.  I think he is a far more powerful player than Jamin, who is kind of a lanky try-hard with a hook or by crook approach to getting guys down solo in the open field.  And he's not as much of a risk-reward hitter as Owusu-Koromoah, who sells out for big blows and had the offense and the back end help on his D to make all of his mistakes less impactful.

 

Zaven doesn't need any help to take a ballcarrier down in the open.  There are so many solo stops in his film where it's effortless and he's getting safeties and tackles for big losses.  If you want a thumping, dominating run defense, Zaven is the best choice.  His size + instincts and ability to play through blocks is how you stop a lot of runs at and behind the LoS instead of chasing them down field, and make offenses gunshy and quicker to abandon the run.

 

I'm not really moved by PFF's run defense grades because they are trash at evaluating run game play.

 

I think Zaven is definitely a much better player right now than Jamin.  I can buy an upside argument in favor of Jamin to some extent because he's got a lot of growth left in him after only 10 career games of significant snaps.  But he's got to do a lot of growth just to catch up to where Zaven is right now, and it's no guarantee that will ever happen.  And Zaven's ceiling is also sky high.  He is a king-sized linebacker like Bernardrick McKinney except that he's fast and super fluid.  He walks around at 260 and has elite change of direction ability and body control for his size and he also has special instincts.  He won every defensive award in college football this season except for the one that Owusu-Koromoah managed to beat him out for.  He was easily the best defensive player in college football this year, and what he does should translate to the NFL.  I like Jamin Davis and I think I was one of his first fans in this thread, but he's not as good as Zaven IMO.  Zaven is a potential star, especially if you give him to this coaching staff and put him behind this DL.  He's the kind of presence that can define the identity of your team, and he and Owusu-Koromoah are the only LBers worth taking at 19.  Jamin is a second rounder based on resume and film, who ran and jumped himself into the first round.  But the team who picks him over Zaven is going to regret it IMO.

 

The irony here is I am pretty sure I am the dude who introduced Zaven Collins to the thread.  I am pretty sure I am his earliest fan here and did the first report here on him.   As you said you were early on Jamin.  I wasn't early on Jamin.   And like I said on my last post and a zillion others I like Zaven.   I wouldn't hate it if they took him at 19.  But I've gone from him being the dude I want at 19 to he's not the one I want at 19.  But I don't mean that acrimoniously.  I don't want Jamin at 19 either.  But I wouldn't hate it if they took Collins either though at 19 and I said that.  

 

The dude clearly has a lot of support and love here by a bunch of people.  I can't recall a beloved player on this thread like Zaven in a long time.  It is by a mile the most unpopular thing I've said on the draft thread over the years -- making the point that Zaven in my view might not be the #1 LB for us and explaining why.  😀  And that's all I've done, I like him, I didn't say he stinks.  Even when I attacked his flaws I centered it on inconsistency versus he can't do it. 

 

If Zaven doesn't even have the flaws I've mentioned than IMO he should go top 10.  Considering, I said he's a stud against the pass.  I said he's a really good pass rusher.  I said he has really high intangibles. I've talked up all the awards you mentioned and more. 

 

So my take on his flaws is I think he's inconsistent against the run and I don't see him as a sideline to sideline chase down runners in the open field stud.  So if I am wrong about that then we have probably one of the best prospects we've seen at MLB in eons.  Sort of the Kyle Pitts of LBs.  A unicorn at that spot that is really really special. Because I touted just about everything else about him.  So if what I picked on him was off.  Then that would mean Zaven is special at everything.  

 

As for you definitively saying Zaven is the better player and isn't close.  To each their own.   Many here respect your opinion.  As do I.  I've not seen in all my readings about the draft, a take that strong on Zaven.  But with all respect, I disagree big time with your definitive conclusion.   I find it interesting that draft geeks are really all over the place on Jamin and Collins for different reasons.   And they all have their different favorite.  I am not the only dude who would take Jamin before Zaven in this coming draft.  I noticed very mixed opinions as to who is the better propsect. 

 

I think the two players are different flavors.  Without repeating my longish posts about both dudes (which had plenty of complements for Zaven in the mix), my point was they both bring different strengths and weaknesses.

 

What don't I think Zaven excels at?  Sideline to sideline range and open field tackling.   I don't need PFF's criticism on it to see it myself so sorry for bringing up their score.  It was my take before seeing the score.  And its not that i think he has poor range and is a poor open tackler.  But IMO he's inconsistent on that front and his range is decent but its not Jamin's level of range.  And I love watching Jamin's open field tackling -- he levels dudes in the open field.   I love that combination of range and open field tackling. 

 

I don't see Zaven chasing down Elijah Moore in the flat to stop a play.  And for me personally thinking about our defense, I want a LB who can do that especially playing weak side LB. 

 

And yes upside is a big factor to me.  I gather I am the only one who seems to find the division both players played in to have meaning.  But that also is a factor in the soup for me.

 

See the play below.  I can find a series of those.  Zaven is #23.  In the first clip he's just 2 feet away but the RB breaks away from him.  Zaven does a lot of things well.  But yeah I do think Jamin would bring more range to help shut down the run. 

 

 

 

 

 

collinschase.png

collinschase2.png

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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3 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

I still like Zaven Collins, but he is a pretty similar player to Anthony Barr at the next level, I think. He is more of a SLB that has the ability to be pretty good in coverage. I used to be extremely high on him but I can't ignore a 4.67 time, which isn't bad but it immediately makes him the slowest LBer we have. I'd feel much more confident in him if he ran a 10th of a second slower. JOK to me is a more polished Deion Jones coming out, ND had this guy covering Devonta Smith, while Jamin Davis just ran a 4.37 and is drawing comparisons The Maniac. 

 

I wouldn't be upset with Collins but I like him less in modern defenses than JOK and Jamin Davis. Speed is king on offenses right now, we need fast LBers that are going to be able to tackle 4.3 guys in space. 

 

That is a good analogy IMO.  One of my first thougts about Zaven that I made during the college season is even though he played a lot of weakside LB in college he struck me more of a natural strong OLB.  

 

I want my weakside linerbacker with sideline to sideline speed.  But that's me.    Jamin Davis has some of Reuben Foster (the Alabama version) sideline to sideline range and can flatten dudes as a tackler in open field.  Zaven has his strengths and I get hammered a little when i bring up his flaws but sorry i don't see Zaven as a sideline to side line open field tackle beast.

 

Zaven to me can play weakside but IMO would be a stud at strong.  Jamin IMO the more natural weakside LB. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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@Malapropismic DepositoryThat's because Dallas shops at the bargain bin for free agents and other teams stupidly sign their players for big contracts, so they get a ton of comp picks. Gallup is probably the next player that will net them a 3rd. I dont think they draft particularly well, definitely better than the Eagles, Dalas just seems to be a team that puts strong consideration on value, which is okay but that defense is Swiss cheese with the amount of holes it has. 

 

I remember a ton of people saying Dallas had the best draft early last year because they got 5 or 6 steals but they were "steals" based on the big boards or best available. 

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2 hours ago, SkinsFootball said:

I think it comes back to his size. He's not undersized or a tweener like the other two highly rated linebackers. 

 

Yep, there is a lot to be said about having king-sized players in your personnel.  It's OK to have a few undersized guys here and there.  But when you start compromising on size at multiple points in your personnel package, then eventually you end up with a team that is too small.  Ditto for compromising on speed here and there and eventually ending up with a team that is too slow.  That's what is awesome about getting first rounders who are big and fast.  Having a Zaven at LBer and a Montez and Chase at DE means its OK that Daron and Allen are a little bit on the small side for their position.  Or you can compromise and maybe get a Jaylen Twyman type on your DL who is a really talented player that will be steeply discounted because of his size and it won't damage your team's ability to match up with big teams.

 

But if you have compromised on size with your first rounders, it is much less likely that you're going to be able to make up that size/speed gap later on in the draft because it is hard to find a discount on size and speed with clean players who don't have some other serious kind of deficiency.

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16 players I would be very excited to have available at 19:

Lawrence

Wilson

Lance

Fields

Pitts

Sewell

Chase

Smith

Waddle

Slater

Darrisaw

Surtain

Parsons

Jones

Owusu-Koramoah

Horn

 

Players that would be acceptable at 19:

Farley

Davis

Collins

 

So, slip in a few DE's and/or DL's and I will be pretty happy. 

 

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Jamin Davis isn't undersized.  We all know football has changed in the last decade.   Jamin is 3 inches taller and the same weight as Devin White.  He has just about the same wingspan as Zaven Collins.

 

6 foot 3.5 at 235 pounds with a massive wingspan, isn't undersized especially for WLB in today's NFL.  Not to mention his body looks like he's out of some Marvel superhero movie.  He was faster, more explosive AND stronger than Zaven.  Jamin is an athletic freak.   

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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11 minutes ago, actorguy1 said:

16 players I would be very excited to have available at 19:

Lawrence

Wilson

Lance

Fields

Pitts

Sewell

Chase

Smith

Waddle

Slater

Darrisaw

Surtain

Parsons

Jones

Owusu-Koramoah

Horn

 

Players that would be acceptable at 19:

Farley

Davis

Collins

 

So, slip in a few DE's and/or DL's and I will be pretty happy. 

 

 

 

Good list. It's almost identical for me as to the players who excite me.  

Not sure about Parsons.  Love the player but the baggage concerns me. 

I'd add:  I'd add N. Harris and Etienne. Though I think no shot we take either.  I'd add Tevin Jenkins.  I am torn on Cosmi I have to rewatch him.

   

I have more players who would be acceptable for me that list would be

Farley

J. Davis

Z. Collins

Moehrig

Bateman

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

That is a good analogy IMO.  One of my first thougts about Zaven that I made during the college season is even though he played a lot of weakside LB in college he struck me more of a natural strong OLB.  

 

I want my weakside linerbacker with sideline to sideline speed.  But that's me.    Jamin Davis has some of Reuben Foster (the Alabama version) sideline to sideline range and can flatten dudes as a tackler in open field.  Zaven has his strengths and I get hammered a little when i bring up his flaws but sorry i don't see Zaven as a sideline to side line open field tackle beast.

 

Zaven to me can play weakside but IMO would be a stud at strong.  Jamin IMO the more natural weakside LB. 

When I watch Barr, I see a ton of similarities to Zaven Collins. I see a solid player that flashes, but what does he truly excel at? Minnesota fans still think he's playing out of position and I feel like this is how we could view Collins potentially. I saw him in zone coverage where he looks pretty good in, but I didn't see him much in man to man.  

 

He'll probably look good when he rushes the QB, because his size and athletic ability for a DE are fantastic. 2021 OLB though? I have a hard time buying that he becomes an elite player at the next level where he isn't bigger and faster than everyone, he'd be the 3rd slowest player in our starting defense most likely (depending on how fast you think CY is). 

 

I have Zaven plugged as a SLB as well. He would be incredible on a team that needed extra juice in the pass rush department. I do get somewhat of a tweener vibe from him, he is just as much of a tweener as JOK is. 

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6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Good list. It's almost identical for me as to the players who excite me.  

Not sure about Parsons.  Love the player but the baggage concerns me. 

I'd add:  I'd add N. Harris and Etienne. Though I think no shot we take either.  I'd add Tevin Jenkins.  I am torn on Cosmi I have to rewatch him.

   

I have more players who would be acceptable for me that list would be

Farley

J. Davis

Z. Collins

Moehrig

Bateman

 

 

I certainly love Harris and Etienne but question value at 19. With Jenkins keep hearing more right tackle. I would also add Moehrig and Bateman to acceptable lost.

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10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Jamin Davis isn't undersized.  We all know football has changed in the last decade.   Jamin is 3 inches taller and the same weight as Devin White.  He has just about the same wingspan as Zaven Collins.

 

6 foot 3.5 at 235 pounds with a massive wingspan, isn't undersized especially for WLB in today's NFL.  Not to mention his body looks like he's out of some Marvel superhero movie.  He was faster, more explosive AND stronger than Zaven.  Jamin is an athletic freak.   

 

 

Jamin may be better on the bench than Zaven, but there is no way he's stronger.  You don't bench with your legs and Zaven has some of the biggest and most powerful legs that you're going to find on a linebacker.  And those legs are the biggest part of having functional football power.  To me there is a big difference in the way they play through contact and the way they hit people.  Zaven is always shrugging off blocks and when he hits guys in the open field, they frequently go backwards.  Jamin has to wrestle them down.  I think he actually plays the game like a lanky guy who had to really build up his body to get to where he is now and he's not used to throwing his weight around, whereas Zaven plays like a bully who has always been the biggest kid on the field his whole life.  Playing big and playing through people is second nature to Zaven.  He focuses on the ball, not the match up in front of him and it's a big part of why he made so many more plays than the other LBers this year.

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Darkhorse late round RB who also is an explosive KR -- Kene Nwangwu.  He's 6 "1, 210.  He is the fastest RB in this draft and he looks it too.  High 4.2's according to some and low 4.3s according to others.   Has some elusiveness and stop and go to his game based on what I saw.  I couldn't find enough of footage to come up with a full take.  

 

 

https://www.thegazette.com/iowa-state-cyclones/iowa-state-football-pro-day-kene-nwangwu-dylan-soehner-wanted-to-show-versatility/

Nwangwu was top-15 in the nation in average kick return yardage in three of his four years, including seventh nationally last season when he averaged 29 yards per return.

Nwangwu also had several 45-plus yard rushes this last season and tied with Breece Hall in yards per rush at 5.6.

Tuesday, NFL scouts learned about his speed. Nwangwu said several scouts had his 40-yard dash time in the high 4.2s.

 

https://patriotswire.usatoday.com/2021/04/08/patriots-among-teams-meeting-with-iowa-state-rb-kene-nwangwu/

The Iowa State product averaged an eye-popping 26.85 yards per return on special teams. He rushed the ball 61 times for 339 yards and four touchdowns last season. In terms of kick returns, he recorded 19 returns for 550 yards in 2020.

He immediately established himself in that role early as a freshman in 2016. That year, he recorded 34 returns for 896 yards and a touchdown, averaging 26.4 yards per return. Those numbers would serve as career-highs for him collegiately.

In his Iowa State career, he averaged 26.8 yards per return over the course of four seasons.

 

 

 

 

 

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I can’t believe there’s people who wouldn’t want Najee at 19. **** if all 3 top tackles are gone he’s my #1. Then Horn/Surtain, then Zaven.

 

This is assuming the top 2-3 receivers, 5 QBs and 3 tackles are gone.

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30 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Jamin may be better on the bench than Zaven, but there is no way he's stronger.  You don't bench with your legs and Zaven has some of the biggest and most powerful legs that you're going to find on a linebacker.  And those legs are the biggest part of having functional football power.  To me there is a big difference in the way they play through contact and the way they hit people.  Zaven is always shrugging off blocks and when he hits guys in the open field, they frequently go backwards.  Jamin has to wrestle them down.  I think he actually plays the game like a lanky guy who had to really build up his body to get to where he is now and he's not used to throwing his weight around, whereas Zaven plays like a bully who has always been the biggest kid on the field his whole life.  Playing big and playing through people is second nature to Zaven.  He focuses on the ball, not the match up in front of him and it's a big part of why he made so many more plays than the other LBers this year.

 

I appreciate the enthusiasm some have here for Zaven.  Comes off like he is Superman.  Can he be stopped?   I feel a little invested in the stock since I talked about him eons ago before it became cool. 

 

giphy.gif

 

As for your post I agree with some of this.  Disagree with some of it, too.  But I won't point out which.    I am taking a break from challenging Zaven on anything because it feels like I am getting falsely labeled by being drawn into some of these debates as a Zaven hater which i am far from that.   If I really dislike a player, I don't straddle the fence, I am not shy at just saying it.   He was one of my early guys for this draft. 

 

 I don't mean to take that frustration out on you.  You were just the last post on the topic so I hit my breaking point on it now.  :ols:  It's no one's fault.  It's just a simple fact that if you are playing devil's advocate on a player on multiple posts with different people -- the negative stuff is what's remembered.  So I am going to stop doing it. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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17 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I can’t believe there’s people who wouldn’t want Najee at 19. **** if all 3 top tackles are gone he’s my #1. Then Horn/Surtain, then Zaven.

 

This is assuming the top 2-3 receivers, 5 QBs and 3 tackles are gone.

 

I can see us drafting Harris.  Marty Hurney drafted two RBs in the first Rd (DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart) within 3 years of each other and of course he drafted McCaffery.  Plus Ron wants to run the football so it's in the DNA of this FO to take one in the 1st. 

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Najee Harris. 6’2 230 lbs.

 

The guy has all the tools! He has vision (reads his blocks), he bursts through holes... he has speed (only missing that extra gear but he’s fast enough for big plays), he’ll truck you, he’ll stiff arm you, he’ll hurdle you (he actually does this a handful of times), he’ll juke you (cut, spin) in the open field, he can run inside or outside, he’s hard to tackle, he bounces of scrums, he’s a very fluid receiver.... and he’s reckless (violent) getting into the end zone.

 

Buy me this please.

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3 minutes ago, sportsnut said:

Who would the cowboys want to move up for?

For publicity, fan attention, and talk.  It all equates into $$$.  That is the Cowboys in a nutsell; $$$.  Winning, or building a true winning football team is of a secondary interest to them. If Jerry makes money and builds his empire all is well.  THAT is all that truly matters to them. $

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5 minutes ago, sportsnut said:

Who would the cowboys want to move up for?

Kyle Pitts. As much as I don't want to face Kyle Pitts twice a year, if Dallas traded the farm for him, I wouldn't mind it. Dallas is not one TE away from being SB contenders 😆

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3 hours ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

I bet it's for Pitts, Chase, or Sewell. In that order.

I hope they do trade up for a TE or WR,It would be a waste of a draft pick..That Defense is so bad their Offense wont be able to keep pace with a team that has a good to above average offense and an elite Defense..History has shown that an elite Defense reigns supreme over an elite Offense.

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I am not rooting for Dallas to get Pitts.   Gallup, Cooper, Lamb and Pitts?

 

Yeah their defense is bad.  But in this era of the game offense is more important.  

 

if they move from 10 to 4, I doubt it would cost them a fortune.  It's not like moving up from where we are.  

 

If they draft Pitts it would make Koramoah even more appealing to me.  Though I still want a LT first and foremost:  Darrisaw or Jenkins. 

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Zaven was my early favorite pick for #19. I'm coming back to that and would loves y'alls insight. Two years ago  many of us fell for another Lb Leighton Vander Esch. Interestingly, he was picked at #19. Disregarding LVE's injury issues in the pro's, Who do you feel is a better draft time prospect?  

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