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2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread


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3 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

I've got some counterpoints.

 

First, we could trade down and gather future draft picks.  If Heinicke isn't the real deal, we'd need extra draft ammo to trade for somebody in 2022.

 

Second, that trade back in 2008 could've worked great, but Cerrato/Snyder took over.

 

Trying to remember, but I think Malcolm Kelly was Cerrato telling the doctors they didn't know what they were talking about with his knee, and Devin Thomas was Snyder who got obsessed with his highlights?  Forgetting who loved Fred Davis, but I think there was also some head for that one.

 

Could've had some combo of Jordy Nelson, DeSean Jackson, Martellus Bennett, Calais Campbell etc with those 3 second rounders.

Yes, the picks were there at positions of need.  Our recent fails at trading back have been due to our guys in the draft room, not because the picks weren't there. We should have killed it with the trade back in 1999 and much of that fail was driven by external situations and mistakes made by our guys (led by Snyderrato) the next year when it really should have paid off (though, the trade up with our bounty was technically for Chris Samuels, not Lavar Arrington). In fact, NONE of our trade backs during Snyder's era were bad in and of themselves.  Our history of trade ups in the draft has been worse (the only big success in the Snyder era was technically the 2000 one for Samuels). It appears that our trade up in 2019 worked but we only had to trade up (should have been able to trade back) because of Snyder's interference it appears.

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6 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Although that's a valid concern, it'd also be a really good problem to have.

With the luck we've had recently with second round picks I'd be ok with having to make tough decisions on 3 from the same draft, that'd pretty much mean our roster was stacked.

It’s a good problem but an avoidable one.

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2 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

There are too many good receivers in this draft to waste anything more than a 7th rounder on a receiver from North Texas. We already have our own enigma from a small school in AGG and guys like Darden tend to go undrafted.

If you look at the consistency of champions or at least SB attendees having potent TE threats it's impressive. Gronk and Kelce this year, Kittle and Kelce last year, the only team that didn't have a viable threat in the SB in the last 5 years were the Rams.

However, Gronk was originally a second rounder who came out of early retirement, is a two-way threat not just a receiver and has played with the GOAT at QB for his whole career. He also was a need because the first round TE TB picked looked like JAG. Kelce was a third who blew up with Alex Smith who loves TEs and Reid who also has that thing for TEs. He now is playing with a QB who looks to be in the HOF.  Kittle was a 5th rounder.  Kittle > Howard, Njoku, Everett, Shaheen, Smith, Roberts and Butt.

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7 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Every year people fall in love with trading down and racking up picks but how often does that work out and you end up with a bunch of good players? Remember the 08 draft?

 

I'd rather trade up then trade down.

It doesn't matter where you pick or how many picks you have if you have a clueless scouting department and even worse management/ownership.  After the draft, I was talking with my stray cat friend Toonses*, and he couldn't believe how bad the haul stunk.  It's not a function of having multiple 2nd round picks that you end up with a narcoleptic tight end, a guy with bad knees *at the time*, and the fastest knucklehead in the draft when we could've drafted Jordy Nelson, Desean Jackson, Calais Campbell, Jamaal Charles....  With the salary cap the way it is, assuming you have a competent draft team, more picks > fewer picks, and depth is absolutely critical in today's NFL, especially with the beyond-idiotic idea of going to a 17 game schedule (which I think will not survive one year).

 

As for trading up, someone mentioned what we lost to get RGIII yet we still made the playoffs a few years later.  We did, barely.  One-and-done.  In-and-out.  Maximize the total amount of talent on the team and you do that through smartly drafting as many players as you can.

 

*There really was a neighborhood stray named Toonses, a big, smart, talkative human-loving, domestic medium-hair tabby who'd come around my house every week or so and hang out overnight.  Eventually he moved in when he got older (and he had several "retirement houses" to choose from).  He'd watch football with me.  Cool dude and I really miss him.  Had to put him down after he developed cancer of the pancreas and liver, probably from hanging out under cars parked on the side of my street -- all those chemicals he was lying on and licking up.  But he lived to be around 11 and had a great life otherwise.  And yeah, he could not believe how bad our '08 draft was.

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Most of the time when I think WFT made a draft or trade mistake, it will only take me a few days to start trying to show that it was my wrong until the guy in question is no longer a member of WFT. I defended Haskins (I felt taking him was a mistake but no where near as bad as it appears now) until he was actually cut.  Taking Devin Thomas when Jordy Nelson was on the board (at the time, I thought Nelson was the best wideout in the 2008 draft) was one of the few personnel mistakes I never even tried to defend.

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3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

When I talked about Bateman I lauded his speed especially as accelerating fast in a short radius in the flat (5-10 yards).  After writing that, I read some of the reports about him and my take seemed out of synch with some of the draft geeks who bill him as more of a possession dude with speed being perhaps his weakness. 

 

It doesn't surprise me that Crabbs on the tweet below still can't accept that speed because I gather it conflicts with all those possesion receiver reports that people like him have written about Bateman.  Personally, i thought he was both -- posession type with speed.  I didn't think Tyreek Hill type of speed but he looks fast to me and I said so.   So it was good for me to stumble on that tweet below, I am usually pretty good (though far from perfect) at judging speed without the benefit of knowing their timed speed. 

 

Would I take him at 19?  Nope.  But I wouldn't hate it.  As I said at the time I like dudes who can seperate in a short space in the flat because that mirrors so much in today's NFL IMO -- and Bateman does that so well.   He played basketball and it shows -- reminds me of a WR version of Jordan Reed as to his ability to quickly seperate in a short space.  He uses his body language well to deceive defenders, accelerates fast and cuts fast. 

 

To me his game is being a catching machine in the flat.    I do think he can do more than be a weapon in the flat but to my eyes that's his strength and the stats back that up.   I think the dude has one of the highest floors among the receivers. 

 

I am with you. Separation is key to success. and he separates better than about anyone in the draft.

If they miss in FA on a #2 to match with Terry, Bateman is the guy.

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3 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

I think all of that would be true if the draft was already so deep. 2016 was a weak class outside of Thomas and Hill.

 

 

Not sure what you are driving at -- I gather its the NFL passes on WRs that aren't from big schools, so no need to use a draft pick on a dude who didn't go to a big school because they will go undrafted?

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6 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I am with you. Separation is key to success. and he separates better than about anyone in the draft.

If they miss in FA on a #2 to match with Terry, Bateman is the guy.

 

In the late first round-2nd round range I like a lot:  Bateman, Marshall, R. Moore, E. Moore. K. Toney.  I'd be happy with any one of them for diferent reasons.  Everything being equal I'd take a LT in the first and take the BPA WR in the 2nd because I gather one of those players will be there in the 2nd. 

That's a good list for me too below

 

 

 

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I'm on board with Bateman but am partial to Dyami Brown and think he's as good if not better. I think he would be better value if we wait and have a little patience. Regardless having either lining up with Scary Terry is a win for us. I just hope we have someone capable of getting them the ball.

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32 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

In the late first round-2nd round range I like a lot:  Bateman, Marshall, R. Moore, E. Moore. K. Toney.  I'd be happy with any one of them for diferent reasons.  Everything being equal I'd take a LT in the first and take the BPA WR in the 2nd because I gather one of those players will be there in the 2nd. 

I agree with your earlier comment that a OT and WR should be addressed in this draft due to strength.

I am hoping a #2 WR, LB, DB and QB are filled prior to the draft. Any of your guys would fit well, I just really like Batemans separation. The other guys you list would be good as well, especially Marshall and Toney IMO

If so I am hoping they can skip WR until the 3rd and grab one of the amazing slot guys. Would love Darrisaw in the 1st or Cosmi/Eich in the second. Would like a LB no later than the beginning of the 3rd. 

 

EDIT: That list you added on day 2 WR picks is great. Hoping WFT is on that list next year! Boy did I like Deebo and AJ Brown in 2019 and Pittman last year

Edited by DWinzit
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29 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

In the late first round-2nd round range I like a lot:  Bateman, Marshall, R. Moore, E. Moore. K. Toney.  I'd be happy with any one of them for diferent reasons.  Everything being equal I'd take a LT in the first and take the BPA WR in the 2nd because I gather one of those players will be there in the 2nd. 


I second this. If there is a good LT in the first, the scarcity at that position and the number of good later round WR’s would lead me to LT. But, I think there is a chance Waffle falls. And I like him more than any OL likely to be there at 19. Waddle was better than Smith when they were sharing the field together. 

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4 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

If Weddle is there we take him. Also, I’m all for trading out of 19 but I prefer not trading out of the first round altogether. I want that 5th year option otherwise we have three second rounders all due new contracts the same year as Chase Young.

 

If we could consistently draft well, I don't think this would be as big of an issue.  Maybe you don't pay all 4 DL if you have a cheaper option ready to go.  Thomas, McKissic, and Lucas are all FA next year and getting OT, RB, TE now make it easier to pony up less.  Historically, I don't think we've done a good job with this and end up paying more in picks or contract cost due to holes.

 

Also, for an example - the fifth year option for Scherff was 12.5 mill and a year later 14.7mill (franchise tag was 14.1mill when he got the 5th year option year 2019).  We don't want to franchise all the time, but for 1.5 mill difference, is it really that big of a difference vs 2 2nd rounders?  Josh Doctson would have been 10.2 million the year prior (WR higher FT so guess it matters more on what position your targeting).

 

Depends on how you draft, but from what I've seen 19 to ~30-35 isn't a massive drop in overall player value.  The 5th year option is nice, but I see it more so for a QB, DE and maybe WR (get 5th year option plus 2 years of FT).  For other positions, just sign them long term, FT 1 year or let them walk. 

 

edit: lower picks get lower value compared to Scherff, so drafting outside of top 10 makes 5th year deal more valuable.  Could sway me back the other way a little bit.  Still think if you get 33 and 45 it's worth the drop in this case.  You could always try and get back to 30 with something like 33 and a 4th.

 

https://frontofficenfl.com/2020/06/04/2020-nfl-cba-explained-5th-year-option-in-rookie-contracts/

 

For players selected in the top 10 picks of the 2016 or ’17 drafts, the fifth-year option will pay a base salary equal to the transition tag for the position at which he played the most plays in his fourth season (the season prior to the option year). For those selected from picks 11 to 32, the option will be equal to an amount calculated by using the formula for the transition tag but with the third- through 25th-highest PYS in the player’s fourth season rather than the top 10 such salaries.

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6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Would I take him at 19?  Nope.  But I wouldn't hate it.  As I said at the time I like dudes who can seperate in a short space in the flat because that mirrors so much in today's NFL IMO -- and Bateman does that so well.   He played basketball and it shows -- reminds me of a WR version of Jordan Reed as to his ability to quickly seperate in a short space.  He uses his body language well to deceive defenders, accelerates fast and cuts fast. 

 

I agree, I think he plays pretty fast too.  That 40 time confirms to me that he is this year's Justin Jefferson, who also timed low 4.4s and was faster than people were giving him credit for being.

 

I think he's one of our best options at 19 TBH because of his combo of upside and safety.  He's not as talented as Etienne and Harris, who I think can be two of the best players at their position in a few years.  But he's got definite Pro-bowl upside IMO.  The route running excellence, the NFL caliber strength, and the play speed are all things that translate.

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37 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I agree, I think he plays pretty fast too.  That 40 time confirms to me that he is this year's Justin Jefferson, who also timed low 4.4s and was faster than people were giving him credit for being.

 

I think he's one of our best options at 19 TBH because of his combo of upside and safety.  He's not as talented as Etienne and Harris, who I think can be two of the best players at their position in a few years.  But he's got definite Pro-bowl upside IMO.  The route running excellence, the NFL caliber strength, and the play speed are all things that translate.

 

 

(Depending on FA), behind us in the 1st, who'd take a WR?

 

20). Chicago (yes, especially if they lose Robinson in FA.  O-line and D-line are also major areas of need (aside from QB).

21). Indy (yes, although LT is the major need.  If they resign Hilton, WR isn't a huge need.  Maybe they have given up on Paris Campbell. Edge rusher is also a need).

22).  Tenn (No.  RT, and anywhere on defense are much bigger needs)

23). Jets (Yes, although it could be RB, o-line, edge, or CB).

24). Pitt (No.  They have Claypool, Washington, and Deonte)

25). Jags (Yes, although I think they target o-line and anywhere on defense before going WR.  They have Chark and Shenault)

26). Cle (No)

27). Bal (Yes (but only a big WR).  However, edge rusher and o-line (RT if they trade Brown linger as bigger needs)

28). NO (Maybe.  They have Thomas, Smith, and Sanders, but the offense could use some juice)

29). GB (Yes, although defense and o-line are bigger needs)

30). Buff (Yes, to get someone opposite Diggs.  Although edge is just as big a need)

31). KC (Yes, although o-line is a major need)

32). TB (No)

 

 

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Been watching a lot of QB play this weekend, this is how I'd rank the top 5. 

Trevor Lawrence - Might be the best QB prospect I've ever seen, he is a better prospect than Luck was IMO. 

Zach Wilson - Cannon for an arm, extremely accurate on the run, made plenty of NFL-type window throws. His size concerns me but no doubt he's the 2nd best prospect in this draft. Level of competition is shaky but performed at a top level. Reminds me a bit of Tony Romo. 

Trey Lance - Looks to have a natural feel for the game, huge arm, elusive in the pocket, can make difficult throws across his body, has the potential to be 2nd best QB in this class. Just like Wilson, his level of competition is shaky but you can't knock him for it unless he doesn't perform. 

Justin Fields - He's Dak Prescott lite. I question his decision-making, there were times he would throw right as he was getting tackled causing interceptions or near interceptions. Big gap between Lance/Fields I think but I could be wrong (probably am). 

Mac Jones - Freaking Jones, one of the most polarizing players in this draft. Quick release, accurate, average arm/athletic ability will hold him back from being an elite QB. Bust potential is much higher than any of the other QBs in the top 5. 

 

Lawrence should be 1st pick, Wilson top 3, Lance top 5, Fields top 12, Jones top 20. The top 3 QBs have a chance at being elite players, I'm just not feeling that with Fields. Too many wobbly passes and careless throws, isn't as fast as I originally thought (he doesn't look 4.4 fast when I watch him). Jones basically has no chance at being elite IMO. We're probably going to need to trade a lot to get into the top 8 from 19 but I think it needs to be done, otherwise we're just kicking the can down the road. 

Edited by Burgundy Yoda
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6 hours ago, GothSkinsFan said:

Tremble's going to Tampa at #32.  Gronk ain't going to play forever and when you soundly defeat your opponent in the Super Bowl, you have the luxury of making great luxury picks at 32.

Tremble in the first would indeed be a luxury pick. They do have OJ Howard coming off the IR and a ton of FA's they will need to resign or replace.

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23 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

For those that every now and then say no way Zaven Collins falls to our pick.  I'd say if mocks are on the money, almost 100% chance Collins lands at 19.  I think the only way N. Harris doesn't fall to 19 is if the Dolphins take him at 18 which is possible. 

Well, that was me lol.

No doubt almost every mock has Collins available at 19. My point has there are few players that can hold up on the inside and be good in coverage. They are not unicorns but there are not many. The current Inside guys available in FA are slim pickings especially for players under 30. In 2019 most mocks had White and/or Bush reaching us at 15 but they were gone by 10.

This draft is also scarce for these type players. I mean really only one, Parsons. And then there is the freak Zaven who is really not a true inside guy but can play all over due to his combo of talent, instinct, size and speed. The only other real one seems like Moses but he is still not fully back from the knee. I do find Jabril Cox almost as intriguing as Zaven but he really is more of an outside guy.

I could see him being gone before 19 even though he is not ranked on boards in the top 19. I can't wait to see who RR and company decide to go after in FA.

Teams like Miami and NE would love a guy like Zaven

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3 hours ago, DWinzit said:

Tremble in the first would indeed be a luxury pick. They do have OJ Howard coming off the IR and a ton of FA's they will need to resign or replace.

 

 

I figure Tampa takes either LB (if David leaves), DT (Suh is a FA), or edge (JPP is getting up there in age and Barrett is a FA).

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1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

Well, that was me lol.

No doubt almost every mock has Collins available at 19. My point has there are few players that can hold up on the inside and be good in coverage. They are not unicorns but there are not many. The current Inside guys available in FA are slim pickings especially for players under 30. In 2019 most mocks had White and/or Bush reaching us at 15 but they were gone by 10.

This draft is also scarce for these type players. I mean really only one, Parsons. And then there is the freak Zaven who is really not a true inside guy but can play all over due to his combo of talent, instinct, size and speed. The only other real one seems like Moses but he is still not fully back from the knee. I do find Jabril Cox almost as intriguing as Zaven but he really is more of an outside guy.

I could see him being gone before 19 even though he is not ranked on boards in the top 19. I can't wait to see who RR and company decide to go after in FA.

Teams like Miami and NE would love a guy like Zaven

 

Most mocks have him in the late first, can't recall the last mock where he was picked in the top 18.  If you go through various permutations of players from 1-18, it makes IMO sense that Zaven Collins doesn't leapfrog them.  I am pretty sure I was the dude that introduced Zaven Collins to this thread or close enough, I talked about him earlish during the college season.  So I definitiely like him.  Like I was saying in a different post, you always get surprises in the draft so you never know and Collins could be one of them.  But for the moment the buzz isn't Collins is out of reach at 19.

 

I watched some of Collins closely awhile ago.  My take is Collins is a projection on the inside in the NFL as opposed to ready to transition to MLB in a 4-3.  He played outside.  IMO he's more of a strong side OLB in the NFL even though he played mostly weak side in college but I see him outside easier than inside for now.  His strengths are pass rushing and coverage.  Where he has to work on his game some is run defending.  He has one of the higher miss tackle rates among defenders and one of the weaker run defense grades from PFF.

 

He has freakish type potential so I'd be jazzed we took him.  I said recently that I'd take him over Koramoah.  I think I've changed my mind on that.  I think I'd go Koramoah over Collins.  I like them both.  Obviously two very different type of players.  I think both will be available.  I'd probably lean though skipping both and taking a LT Darrisaw or trade down for Radunz or another of the left tackles.   

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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7 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

I figure Tampa takes either LB (if David leaves), DT (Suh is a FA), or edge (JPP is getting up there in age and Barrett is a FA).

I think you are on it. My first guess would be edge first

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7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Most mocks have him in the late first, can't recall the last mock where he was picked in the top 18.  If you go through various permutations of players from 1-18, it makes IMO sense that Zaven Collins doesn't leapfrog them.  I am pretty sure I was the dude that introduced Zaven Collins to this thread or close enough, I talked about him earlish during the college season.  So I definitiely like him.  Like I was saying in a different post, you always get surprises in the draft so you never know and Collins could be one of them.  But for the moment the buzz isn't Collins is out of reach at 19.

 

I watched some of Collins closely awhile ago.  My take is Collins is a projection on the inside in the NFL as opposed to ready to transition to MLB in a 4-3.  He played outside.  IMO he's more of a strong side OLB in the NFL even though he played mostly weak side in college but I see him outside easier than inside for now.  His strengths are pass rushing and coverage.  Where he has to work on his game some is run defending.  He has one of the higher miss tackle rates among defenders and one of the weaker run defense grades from PFF.

 

Her has freakish type potential so I'd be jazzed we took him.  I said recently that I'd take him over Koramoah.  I think I've changed my mind on that.  I think I'd go Koramoah over Collins.  I like them both.  Obviously two very different type of players.  I think both will be available.  I'd probably lean though skipping both and take a LT Darrisaw or trade down for Radunz or another of the left tackles. 

Do not disagree. Just pointing out the lack of available good potential ILB's in FA or the draft. Collins could survive there. Sadly this is probably the biggest team need today. I love Collins versatility. 

If Collins, JOK and Darrisaw are all there they will have a tough decision. Heck, add in Waddle, Bateman, Harris, Surtain and ugh what a decision. 

Due to numerous of these guys being available at 19 is the reason this year is different than others and a worthy trade down partner could be there this year.

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16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

In the late first round-2nd round range I like a lot:  Bateman, Marshall, R. Moore, E. Moore. K. Toney.  I'd be happy with any one of them for diferent reasons.  Everything being equal I'd take a LT in the first and take the BPA WR in the 2nd because I gather one of those players will be there in the 2nd. 

That's a good list for me too below

 

Additionally, there are a handful of slot receivers that I believe should be available in the 4th-5th round range.  I am curious if the FO has soured on WR Steven Sims due to his poor performance last season and plan to replace him?

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3 hours ago, DWinzit said:

Do not disagree. Just pointing out the lack of available good potential ILB's in FA or the draft. Collins could survive there. Sadly this is probably the biggest team need today. I love Collins versatility. 

If Collins, JOK and Darrisaw are all there they will have a tough decision. Heck, add in Waddle, Bateman, Harris, Surtain and ugh what a decision. 

Due to numerous of these guys being available at 19 is the reason this year is different than others and a worthy trade down partner could be there this year.

 

Agree, i am open to a lot of different guys.

 

Not every team I believe will see Zaven Collins as a 4-3 middle linebacker.    ESPN isn't alone as listing him as an outside linebacker. He played outside linebacker in college.  IMO the style he plays he looks to me more of an outside LB than an inside one.   He can transition to becoming a 4-3 MLB but it would require a transition.   Going with our old school Gregg Wiliams 4-3 defense from years back, he looks more to me as the next Marcus Washington versus London Fletcher.

 

Having said that, these days the base defense isn't as big of a deal. So the 4-3 MLB distinction doesn't matter like it once did and he'd be on the field in nickel.  He's a good LB for 2 LB back sets and that means everything in today's NFL. 

 

Zaven I think becomes more interesting perhaps if they sign a traditional 4-3 MLB in FA.    IMO he'd be a great pairing in that context versus shifting him to MLB from the jump. 

 

On another note, I wonder if Hurney falls hard for Koramoah.  I read that he fell hard for Jeremy Chinn before that last draft.   Likewise I was a big Chinn guy, and Koramoah reminds me of Chinn in one major sense which is he plays with a lot of range and is a ball of energy.  Also the Panthers have had Shaq Thompson.  So wondering if they are looking for that hybird type even though Curl has some of that in his game.  But I wouldn't call Curl a hybrid. 

 

One thing I think Koramoah would put a stop to is getting carved up by TEs and pass catching running backs.  For me Koramoah would be one of my more dramatic shifts as for man crushes.  I am typically more consistent.  I liked him earlier in the season but didn't love him and I had some skepticism about his fit.  But I am sold on him in a big way now.

 

 

 

 

 

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