JSSkinz

A New Start! Ron Rivera, Dan Snyder, The Front Office, and Anything Team Related (other than name change)

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17 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

I want that shirt but its sold out everywhere.

Where can you get that? I live in the tropics and need it!

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4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Where can you get that? I live in the tropics and need it!

I imagine you wearing those shirts daily..you dont have one yet?

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

A lot to like thus far, though the sample size is extremely small. 
 

Still concerned about having a coach with ultimate power as that fails far too often to feel confident in structurally, but I’m happy with the way they handled FA. In particular, the fact that they didn’t “chase” losing out on Cooper by spending big on others undeserving of it. One of the (many) big concerns with having a coach in total control is the short-sighted, desperation type moves where they just have to fill this or that position at any cost. So that was refreshing to see. They didn’t just go and dump significant cap space on a lesser guy because of the miss. 

 

Like you as we discussed I prefer a GM driven model not a HC model.  But I can go for the ride on HC model too if I believe in that HC's competence and the HC lets the personnel guy-GM guy do his thing.  And it might work best to overcome the incompetence of our owner.  Everything I continue to read about Rivera indicates to me is he doesn't fancy himself as the defacto personnel guru.  So it's not like when Shanny was the defacto GM.  It seems more like the Marty-John Schneider model which I can live with -- as long as like you say Rivera doesn't dominate the process where it mandates a short term approach. See the mess with the Texans for example. 

 

I loved the Shanny hire initially. And I did and still do think he's an offensive genius.  But the fact that he thinks he's Bill Belichick and is an expert in everything ultimately turned me off.  Mike Lombardi who worked with both Shanny and Belichick in the past somewhat warned about Shanny on that front.

 

6 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

If it’s as it seems on the surface and they decided, after the Cooper miss, to save some cap space and have it roll over so that they can go hard next season (and the Cooper offer suggests they’re not just forcibly cheap and that they will go after someone they love without the excessive fear of having to "overpay" that is inevitable in FA)... man, I absolutely love that. That’s sound resource management and something we simply haven’t had. 

 

 

I did like the FA approach.  Swing for the fences for the big dog you like.  But if you don't land them, don't fill up your cap with junk.  Bruce typically didn't shoot for the big fish with an exception or two but loved to fill up the cap with mostly junk in FA.

 

6 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

The Trent Williams' trade is a downer, but that's not on anyone other than Bruce right now (in terms of totally catastrophic resource management, of which he's extremely proficient at executing). It's absolutely maddening that we didn't trade him quickly in the first place when his value was at its highest (and none of this is hindsight, quite a few of us understood this simple concept right away) and allowed his value to plummet to where it ended up at (which does include Trent's own foolishness),

 

Decisions like this make or break franchises over the long haul.  Running a team is about making good decisions -- not cherry picking the highlights but everything.   We argued on this with certain people incessantly on the previous GM thread.  The Eagles and Patriots for example are masterful at getting value for their assets.  The third round pick we will get for Trent in 2021 is actually the high water mark of the biggest asset they've even gotten for a player in a trade under Dan unless am missing one in 20 years and that's insane and pathetic.   Can you imagine the Patriots or Eagles getting two thirds and a 5th combined for a youngish QB with good value and pro bowl TE?  People would get fired there probably for mismanaging stuff like that.  But Dan and Bruce have valued emotion and pettiness at times over winning and it indeed takes a toll.  We got plenty of proof of that.  Hopefully Rivera's class rubs over on Dan, I got some optimism that it does.

 

6 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

I'm hoping the talk about Kyle Smith being promoted to GM is true and that it actually means something in terms of organizational structure. At this point, it'd be weird if it was just a title with no real consequence considering he wasn't just given it in the first place. That's the final step for me to really be on cloud 9 about all that's happened thus far (which, again, is very little in the grand scheme of things)... but even if it doesn't occur I'm still pleased overall with how they've done, though the structural concern remains in the back of my head.      

 

Reading all that I could about this it comes off to me something like this:  Kyle is the defacto GM now and he likely gets the title but Rivera has the final say.  Rivera tells Kyle what type of players he wants.  Kyle identifies those players.  Rivera pretty much goes along with Kyle's choices.  So far so good with no really heated arguments.  The thing that I like about what I hear-read is that Rivera doesn't fancy himself as a personnel guru and trusts that Kyle is better at it than him. 

  

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

  Kyle is the defacto GM now and he likely gets the title but Rivera has the final say.  Rivera tells Kyle what type of players he wants.  Kyle identifies those players.  Rivera pretty much goes along with Kyle's choices.  So far so good with no really heated arguments.  The thing that I like about what I hear-read is that Rivera doesn't fancy himself as a personnel guru and trusts that Kyle is better at it than him. 

  

Teamwork off the field should help foster the integrity this organization once had and lost  

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From The Athletic regarding the cohesion selecting Gibson. 

 

Quote

There are several reasons I really love this pick. First, from the front office to the head coach to the offensive coordinator, Scott Turner, the entire organization was on the same page about selecting Gibson. Turner articulated a plan for how he’d use him in his scheme, and then Smith and Rivera grabbed him with their early third-round selection. That’s a level of cohesion that hasn’t been present in this building for years. 

 

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I just posted this inside another thread.

 

When you have time go to profootballtalk.com and read Mike Florio article entitled: "49ers played 4D chess to land Trent Williams."

He explains how Trent and his agent worked with John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan to keep the fact that Joe Staley was retiring secret

until the trade was completed and how Staley kept his retirement secret too.  So the implication is our Head Coach and acting General Manager 

were deliberately misled in order to make sure Washington did not increase their draft pick compensation for Williams.  Still glad Williams is gone

and hopefully next draft our new management team can fool some other teams with trades.

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10 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

I just posted this inside another thread.

 

When you have time go to profootballtalk.com and read Mike Florio article entitled: "49ers played 4D chess to land Trent Williams."

He explains how Trent and his agent worked with John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan to keep the fact that Joe Staley was retiring secret

until the trade was completed and how Staley kept his retirement secret too.  So the implication is our Head Coach and acting General Manager 

were deliberately misled in order to make sure Washington did not increase their draft pick compensation for Williams.  Still glad Williams is gone

and hopefully next draft our new management team can fool some other teams with trades.

 

I read that article. I found it annoying he ignored how poorly Allen handled this situation and how hamstrung we were. I think Smith did well to get what he did.

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6 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

I just posted this inside another thread.

 

When you have time go to profootballtalk.com and read Mike Florio article entitled: "49ers played 4D chess to land Trent Williams."

He explains how Trent and his agent worked with John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan to keep the fact that Joe Staley was retiring secret

until the trade was completed and how Staley kept his retirement secret too.  So the implication is our Head Coach and acting General Manager 

were deliberately misled in order to make sure Washington did not increase their draft pick compensation for Williams.  Still glad Williams is gone

and hopefully next draft our new management team can fool some other teams with trades.

 

Meh.  The possibility of Staley retiring was mentioned during the Williams trade discussions.  I'm sure that Kyle and RR were aware of that possibility.  The fact is no teams were offering much for Williams and his agent put it out there that Trent doesn't want to play in Minnesota, which caused the Vikings to immediately back off.  He then lied about it.  If I was one of the few other players in the NFL represented by that guy, I'd change representation today.  I think Peters may have more trouble getting signed than he probably should because of that agent.  GMs around the league seem unanimous in referring to the guy as bizarre and unprofessional.

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6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Reading all that I could about this it comes off to me something like this:  Kyle is the defacto GM now and he likely gets the title but Rivera has the final say.  Rivera tells Kyle what type of players he wants.  Kyle identifies those players.  Rivera pretty much goes along with Kyle's choices.  So far so good with no really heated arguments.  The thing that I like about what I hear-read is that Rivera doesn't fancy himself as a personnel guru and trusts that Kyle is better at it than him. 


My issue with this would be two-fold: 

 

1) If Kyle was “de facto GM” this entire time then why wasn’t he promoted to GM in the first place, and what exactly was he “auditioning” for if he was  already fulfilling the same responsibilities? We can’t say it’s just a matter of a contract extension because titles/roles can be changed on the same contract (and, thus, the same length) as we’ve already seen with Kyle’s promotion. And; 

 

2) If Ron doesn’t fancy himself a personnel guru, trusts that Kyle is better at it, and “pretty much goes along with Kyle’s choices”; then why would he retain final say over player personnel acquisition? That almost feels like a game is being played here, and I’d assume Ron to be better than that. I get the whole Dan factor, but like I said, I can’t accept that on its surface without actually seeing how Dan is with a legitimate, qualified GM versus the fools we’ve been subjected to previously. 

 

So here’s the thing. If he promotes Kyle to GM, yet Kyle really has no added responsibility and simply maintains his current role since it was “de facto GM”, then even the NFL itself doesn’t respect that contractually and Kyle could actually be hired at GM elsewhere. As long as he’s given final say over player personnel elsewhere, the NFL would consider it a legit promotion and NOT a lateral move the Redskins could block. It simply wouldn’t even matter that he went from GM to GM, because the NFL itself would recognize it as essentially an empty title. 
 

Either way, I hope that’s not the case. This set up is and has been better than almost anything we’ve seen under Dan, so I’m not totally down on it. But I’m not going to move off of my position that it would be better if Ron and Kyle were made essentially equal in rank with each having final say over their main responsibilities, and I’m going to hope that occurs until it doesn’t. If/when it doesn’t, I’ll be disappointed but I’ll certainly root for us to be the exception to how these set ups usually end (and, fortunately, there are exceptions). 

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1 hour ago, Number 44 said:

 

Meh.  The possibility of Staley retiring was mentioned during the Williams trade discussions.  I'm sure that Kyle and RR were aware of that possibility.  The fact is no teams were offering much for Williams and his agent put it out there that Trent doesn't want to play in Minnesota, which caused the Vikings to immediately back off.  He then lied about it.  If I was one of the few other players in the NFL represented by that guy, I'd change representation today.  I think Peters may have more trouble getting signed than he probably should because of that agent.  GMs around the league seem unanimous in referring to the guy as bizarre and unprofessional.

Yes. The narrative shouldn't be that the Skins were duped. It really had nothing to do with us. If anything, Trent and his agent wasted Minnesota's valuable time. I'd be outraged if I were Minnesota.

 

If you think about it. What was the offer Minnesota had on the table? A fourth and a 5th was it?

 

I'd rather have the 3rd and the 5th. Thanks Trent and Kyle!!!

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:


My issue with this would be two-fold: 

 

1) If Kyle was “de facto GM” this entire time then why wasn’t he promoted to GM in the first place, and what exactly was he “auditioning” for if he was  already fulfilling the same responsibilities? We can’t say it’s just a matter of a contract extension because titles/roles can be changed on the same contract (and, thus, the same length) as we’ve already seen with Kyle’s promotion. And; 

 

 

Based on what I've read he had other potential GMs in mind aside from just Kyle based on prior relationships.  So it was a try out for Kyle in a sense.   Most of the turnover typically in a FO often comes after the draft.  What January is to coaching, May often is for GM-personnel people.  Rivera for better or worse seems to value prior working relationships and didn't have one with Kyle so he wanted to see how it played out through the draft process. 

 

4 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

2) If Ron doesn’t fancy himself a personnel guru, trusts that Kyle is better at it, and “pretty much goes along with Kyle’s choices”; then why would he retain final say over player personnel acquisition? That almost feels like a game is being played here, and I’d assume Ron to be better than that. I get the whole Dan factor, but like I said, I can’t accept that on its surface without actually seeing how Dan is with a legitimate, qualified GM versus the fools we’ve been subjected to previously. 

 

 

Why would he give it up though?  I gather he wants final say in case on the off chance he does want to overrule Kyle.   Rivera clearly isn't embracing a GM first model. I don't think that is his point behind trusting Kyle where he is questioning his own model.  He wants to be in charge.  But I get the impression that for him to overrule Kyle it would have to be something wild but he wants to hold that power.

 

But my point on Rivera is he strikes me similar to Marty not Shanny when it comes to having final say.  With Shanny I get the impression that he thought he was as good as Scott Campbell and anyone else as for the in house scouts.  He weighed in and made some of the picks from what I read based on his own scouting.  I don't get that vibe about Rivera.  But I don't think that means he likes Kyle so much that he wants to give him 100% power.   I am just saying from what I can tell thus far he is fully running with Kyle's recommendations.

 

4 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:


So here’s the thing. If he promotes Kyle to GM, yet Kyle really has no added responsibility and simply maintains his current role since it was “de facto GM”, then even the NFL itself doesn’t respect that contractually and Kyle could actually be hired at GM elsewhere. As long as he’s given final say over player personnel elsewhere, the NFL would consider it a legit promotion and NOT a lateral move the Redskins could block. It simply wouldn’t even matter that he went from GM to GM, because the NFL itself would recognize it as essentially an empty title. 
 

Either way, I hope that’s not the case. This set up is and has been better than almost anything we’ve seen under Dan, so I’m not totally down on it. But I’m not going to move off of my position that it would be better if Ron and Kyle were made essentially equal in rank with each having final say over their main responsibilities, and I’m going to hope that occurs until it doesn’t. If/when it doesn’t, I’ll be disappointed but I’ll certainly root for us to be the exception to how these set ups usually end (and, fortunately, there are exceptions). 

 

I get your point but the way I look at is it depends a lot on the personalities involved.  I like going back to Shanny because he to me is the perfect example of someone where it wouldn't work well.  IMO his ego is too big where he came off to me that he thought he was a jack of all trades and master of all.  I think a dude like that is a disaster in a situation like that.  Rivera at least so far doesn't strike me like that.  So in theory I think it can work unless something pops up that makes me think otherwise which is possible but it hasn't hit me that way yet where I have concerns.

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-seahawks/post/_/id/33707/pete-carroll-john-schneider-marriage-nearing-10-years-with-seahawks

The arrangement with Carroll wasn't what Schneider initially envisioned, but the partnership has worked out.

They’ve been in lockstep while overseeing the most successful stretch in franchise history. It has included a Super Bowl title and another Super Bowl appearance, four NFC West championships and eight trips to the playoffs in 10 seasons. The Seahawks had reached the playoffs only 10 times in their previous 34 seasons.

Heading into Sunday's divisional-round game against the Green Bay Packers (6:40 p.m. ET, Fox), only New England (141) and Green Bay (111) have more combined regular-season and playoff victories than Seattle's 110 since 2010.

 

"We both think it's cool," Schneider told ESPN.com as he reflected on what will officially be a decade with Carroll on Jan. 19. "I've said it to him and he said it to me the other night on the plane. He's like, 'Holy s---, do you know this is like our 10th season?'"

 

No egos allowed

Tod Leiweke, then the Seahawks' CEO, had to convince Schneider that the job was still good despite the atypical structure. To Schneider, accepting that arrangement was the first example of a trait he and Carroll have that has been critical to their partnership.

"Probably the biggest one is the lack of ego," he said.

 

 

"That's why they work so good together is because Pete may have the final say, but at the end of the day, he's going to trust John and know that [Schneider has] obviously ... done the legwork on guys when it comes to the draft and free agency," said Dan Morgan, who was Seattle's pro personnel director before becoming the Bills' director of player personnel in 2018. "It's just kind of throwing the egos to the side and trusting who you work with."

Schneider likens his partnership with Carroll to a marriage: "You're not going to always want to go to the same movie. You're not going to want to buy the same bed."

 

And when you run a team together for a decade, you're going to have a few disagreements. They'll occasionally have to take a deep breath, get away from each other and sleep on the issue to see if they're looking at it the wrong way.

"There have been a couple guys that we didn't see eye-to-eye on, but we saw eye-to-eye on the decision," Carroll said. "If we're going to make this decision, let's come together and find a way. You support me, I'll support you. Somebody has to give in somewhere and we did. We've done that. That's what's important. We never made a choice that we went [in opposite directions] because we didn't get together on it. That hasn't happened."

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Posted (edited)

@Skinsinparadise This debate can be frustrating for me because, in the end, I’ve made it repeatedly clear that I’m only disappointed or concerned based on the reality of the NFL with these type of set ups failing at a higher rate than otherwise, but that I accept there are exceptions and that I’d hope we can become another one. My disappointment or concern isn’t catastrophic or without accepting the possibility of success. 
 

So it gets frustrating that whenever I express that sentiment I get pushed back on it like there’s no reason for it, or that somehow I need to ignore all the evidence and just assume we’ll be perfectly fine. That’s hard to do no matter how things seem on the surface. It feels like I’m simply unable to express that sentiment, as fair and legitimate as it is, without it becoming an entire ordeal, lol. 
 

And you know just as well as anyone that, at first, things are always peachy around here but that can change real fast, so while I think Ron presents a major difference due to his character in that regard, it still doesn’t erase everything else. 
 

Anyway, on to some of the points here. 
 

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Based on what I've read he had other potential GMs in mind aside from just Kyle based on prior relationships.  So it was a try out for Kyle in a sense.   Most of the turnover typically in a FO often comes after the draft.  What January is to coaching, May often is for GM-personnel people.  Rivera for better or worse seems to value prior working relationships and didn't have one with Kyle so he wanted to see how it played out through the draft process. 


I know how turnover in FOs work in the NFL, as I’ve probably reminded people about it more than anyone here. 
 

But this doesn’t address my question because Ron could’ve still had Kyle auditioning for the role while giving him the GM title without final say and on the same contract Kyle has. That would’ve still allowed for the same pool of candidates for Ron to choose from if he wanted to move on from Kyle. There would be no difference, so I’m still left wondering why, if he’s so called “de facto GM” and there’s no difference (except maybe in pay) that he wasn’t just given that title in the first place. 
 

To me, it gives me the hope that the “auditioning” taking place here is quite meaningful and that, if Kyle gets promoted to GM, it could mean he gets final say over the roster, at least during the off-season. It’s just my hope, based on the reality that that’s what has been a more successful model in the NFL. 
 

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Why would he give it up though?  I gather he wants final say in case on the off chance he does want to overrule Kyle.   Rivera clearly isn't embracing a GM first model. I don't think that is his point behind trusting Kyle where he is questioning his own model.  He wants to be in charge.  But I get the impression that for him to overrule Kyle it would have to be something wild but he wants to hold that power.

 

But my point on Rivera is he strikes me similar to Marty not Shanny when it comes to having final say.  With Shanny I get the impression that he thought he was as good as Scott Campbell and anyone else as for the in house scouts.  He weighed in and made some of the picks from what I read based on his own scouting.  I don't get that vibe about Rivera.  But I don't think that means he likes Kyle so much that he wants to give him 100% power.   I am just saying from what I can tell thus far he is fully running with Kyle's recommendations


I would counter that and say why wouldn’t he? If it’s as you say, and he’s “fully running with Kyle’s recommendations”, he doesn’t fancy himself a personnel guru, etc..., then I’m still not seeing why he wouldn’t. Saying he wants to hold on to it just in case Kyle does something wild doesn’t make me feel better about it at all, lol. I don’t know, I’m not getting the vibe here that I’m in any way wrong to have this concern, and everything being said is just something to the tune “well, because it looks good right now so don’t worry about it and ignore all the evidence around the NFL”.  
 

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I get your point but the way I look at is it depends a lot on the personalities involved.  I like going back to Shanny because he to me is the perfect example of someone where it wouldn't work well.  IMO his ego is too big where he came off to me that he thought he was a jack of all trades and master of all.  I think a dude like that is a disaster in a situation like that.  Rivera at least so far doesn't strike me like that.  So in theory I think it can work unless something pops up that makes me think otherwise which is possible but it hasn't hit me that way yet where I have concerns.

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-seahawks/post/_/id/33707/pete-carroll-john-schneider-marriage-nearing-10-years-with-seahawks

The arrangement with Carroll wasn't what Schneider initially envisioned, but the partnership has worked out.


Ok, now I totally get this and why you’d point to the Seahawks. In fact, the last post I had made on this subject (before this exchange) finished with this:

 

Quote

It’s a question I ask myself, honestly, so I don’t know. It’s really the only example in the entire NFL where you have a guy with the GM title who is widely recognized as the architect of the team, essentially has final say during the off-season over the 90, FA and the draft (Carroll has it over the 53 during the season), but yet the HC has the power of “final say” contractually. 


It is a weird ordeal and their formalized structure doesn’t fit the reality of the way they operate, so it’s confusing as to why. It works, though, which is why I pointed to the Seahawks as being our best (and really only) hope to emulate in terms of sustainable success with how they operate using the current structure we have. Still, we’re not exactly set up the same way. Schneider is GM and they’ve openly stated that he runs the show during the off-season with the 90, FA and the draft. We haven’t heard that directly with regards to Kyle, only hints at it. It is, however, what Ron said he wanted before he was hired (just control over the 53 during the season). My concern after the initial presser remains, though, in that there was a change in his speech regarding that. 
 

As to the answer to your question, my best guess is that Schneider doesn’t really care because, in the end, he’s recognized around the league as having that power, anyway. And it looks like Carroll has never used his power over him during the off-season.
 

So it’s the rare exception to the rule. 
 

...................

 

I hope my explanation above is enough to understand where the issue is with having to hope that we end up like the Seahawks. It’s not a good thing when you’ve got only 1 example out of 32 that you’re forced to hope we can emulate, right? 
 

Like, let’s just keep it recent. Look at the playoff teams this past season:

 

The Vikings have Rick Spielman. 

 

The 49ers have John Lynch. 
 

The Chiefs have Brett Veach. 
 

The Titans have Jon Robinson. 
 

The Bills have Brandon Beane. 
 

The Ravens have Eric DeCosta. 
 

The Saints have Mickey Loomis. 
 

The Eagles have Howie Roseman. 
 

The Packers have Brian Gutekunst. 

 

All of the above have a strong GM coming from a background in evaluating personnel with final say over the roster. 
 

That is 9 out of the 12 playoff teams!
 

The other 3 are the Pats, Texans and Seahawks where the coach is the top football exec. 


<edited for length> .........

 

Now, one can argue that this is unfair because the percentage of teams with powerful GMs far outweigh the teams without, so you can’t just look at these stats without looking at the ratio... but that doesn’t take into account:

 

1) The amount of failed examples of the “coach as top football exec” set up since the salary cap era started (of which there are plenty) and;

 

2) The fact that there are more set ups with powerful GMs than not is actually a result of the NFL largely recognizing the issues with the “coach as top football exec” set up and not some random occurrence. 
 

So, yeah, we can hope we’re included soon with the Seahawks in this equation shortly (and we’d still need to have someone assume the GM role like Schneider as Kyle isn’t there yet, though he’s close to it), but isn’t it disappointing that that’s what we’re stuck hoping for? Wouldn't you rather be in the same boat as the other 9 teams? If Dan is that big a problem that we simply have to accept this set up as being the best way for us, that still means we’re stuck hoping to achieve what much, much fewer have than otherwise during the salary cap era. 
 

That’s all I’m saying.  

https://es.redskins.com/topic/431795-the-philosophy-thread-hc-first-gmfo-first-or-does-it-matter/?do=findComment&comment=11739425
 

So I totally get that, if the set up remains as is, we’re shooting for the Seahawks as an example of the same type of model leading to sustainable success. I’ve actually said this multiple times myself. But the concern remains because it means we’re still hoping to be more of an exception than anything else. 
 

If you notice in the article you posted about the Seahawks, it’s even mentioned how the setup is/was not what “[Schneider] totally envisioned”.  It remains a unique, almost bizarre, setup. So I think we should definitely have some concern in trying to emulate it. 
 

The good news is, as you’ve mentioned plenty, is that Ron and Kyle seem like they can totally have what Pete and John have in Seattle. That they aren’t egotistical and that they can pull the marriage off just as well as Pete/Schneider have. So, I agree, I think it’s perfectly fine to feel good about us possibly being an exception to the rule and having sustainable success. It just doesn’t change that, ultimately, that’s what we’re stuck hoping for... something pretty rare and exceptional. I’d rather not have to put my hope in that. That’s all I’m getting at, and I’m not saying it can’t happen. Just that I’d rather not be forced to root for that to work as opposed to what does work far more often. :) 

Edited by thesubmittedone
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

@Skinsinparadise This debate can be frustrating for me because, in the end, I’ve made it repeatedly clear that I’m only disappointed or concerned based on the reality of the NFL with these type of set ups failing at a higher rate than otherwise, but that I accept there are exceptions and that I’d hope we can become another one. My disappointment or concern isn’t catastrophic or without accepting the possibility of success. 

 

Sure I get your point.  I've made similar points before. My take on it in theory hasn't changed.  But my take on Dan has changed where I just don't buy anymore that we can do it normally -- I think you have to work within his quirks versus assume he just comes around.  As I've mentioned before I work with a lot of different bosses because the nature of my work.  And for some of the quirkier-tougher boses, I've learned over time you got to sometimes just go with some Sun Tzu style and deal with that card versus wishing things were different.   What made me turn around some on this point is to think about my own experiences with Dan like personalities and how has that worked out for better or worse.  And typically the times where it did work out -- it involved playing out of a different playbook. 

 

In some ways I am easier than others on Dan.  I am not in the camp that he interferes a lot.  I do think he interferes some.  I also am not in the camp that we will never win with him.  I think we could if we get lucky.  But I am done with him on this front, I don't trust him in not using his football team as an outlet for his social life.  And I don't think he will ever understand how to build good culture because I think the nature of his personality defeats good culture.   And he has no instincts on what it is to build a culture at best and at worst his instincts take him to the opposite camp of building a good culture.

 

7 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

@Skinsinparadise 

But this doesn’t address my question because Ron could’ve still had Kyle auditioning for the role while giving him the GM title without final say and on the same contract Kyle has. That would’ve still allowed for the same pool of candidates for Ron to choose from if he wanted to move on from Kyle. There would be no difference, so I’m still left wondering why, if he’s so called “de facto GM” and there’s no difference (except maybe in pay) that he wasn’t just given that title in the first place. 

 

In his shoes, I wouldn't give him the title when I have the notion in my head he'd potentially be removed from it months later or demoted.  That would feel to me more dramatic and a bigger slap in the face if the endgame was to keep him in charge of player personnel.  I don't really personally see what it would matter to give him the title right away or not. 

 

7 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

To me, it gives me the hope that the “auditioning” taking place here is quite meaningful and that, if Kyle gets promoted to GM, it could mean he gets final say over the roster, at least during the off-season. It’s just my hope, based on the reality that that’s what has been a more successful model in the NFL. 

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but your points have a vibe that if Rivera likes Kyle so much then he should give up his power of the roster to him.  I don't personally see the two points going hand in hand though.   The reason I posted the Schneider and Carroll article is as much as Carroll loves him he didn't at any point just say I love your work so much that you got it, you are in control, on the rare time we disagree, you have the power to overrule me.  I'd be stunned if Rivera would do the same with Kyle.  And in his shoes 0% chance I'd do it.  Why would he?  Why give up the power to overrule?   The whole idea (whether we like the model or we don't is a separate subject) of a coach centric model is the coach lays out what they want as to the type of players and the GM is beholden to the coach not the other way around. 

 

For Rivera to throw that out that window, he'd have to come to a realisation that the model doesn't work well.  And that's a separate point about liking how Kyle operates.   I think the concept behind a coaches model is partly that it helps avoid heated conflicts and turf battles.  And the roster is built in the vision of what the coach wants his team to look like.  I think Rivera's admiration for Kyle's ability to pick players that fit that vision would have zero bearing on whether he would want to relinquish that vision (which drives the coach-driven concept) so that vision now becomes in the hands on the GM, not him.  

 

If anything if it's true as we've been reading that Kyle and Rivera worked swimmingly together, I think that would if anything make it less likely as opposed to more likely that Rivera would chuck away that model.

 

7 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

@Skinsinparadise 

 

So I totally get that, if the set up remains as is, we’re shooting for the Seahawks as an example of the same type of model leading to sustainable success. I’ve actually said this multiple times myself. But the concern remains because it means we’re still hoping to be more of an exception than anything else. 
 

 

 

I know this might sound funny from me because if anything you can be a tougher critic of Dan than I am.  But my thought here is again is we are working with an owner who isn't normal.  So the word "exception" to me is an operative point here.   20 years is a long enough sample size for me.  IMO you need a head coach with great people skills who can massage his ego and is also competent to deal with him.  And the issue with a GM strong driven team is Dan has shown a history of abusing it by befriending said person and by extension value the friendship over competence -- having a major divide with what the GM wants versus the coaching staff.  Having dudes like Doug Williams admitting that scheme doesn't factor into their personnel choices and all the rest of the crap that seemed to drive the process here.

 

I know you think that Dan can corrupt the process via Rivera too.  And sure, it's possible.  But I have more faith in Rivera and Smith working in cohesion with each other with minimal tension among each other so they can have a united front when needed.    

 

As I've told you many times all things being equal I prefer a GM centric model.  But that's the model that Dan has abused the most. When Dan corrals the defacto GMs Cerrato and Bruce - bad things tend to happen and bad things tend to have legs because these guys become adept at playing Dan's emotions by elevating themselves by creating scapegoats for the teams failure.  It's a divide and conquer approach for Bruce and Vinny.  And yeah maybe Dan finds a new GM who is more competent and classy.  It's possible.  But I've seen good people corrupted by a boss who lives off the fear-scapegoating.  People's instincts are often about self preservation. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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This article brings it home to me some, too.  All weekend I've heard stories of Bruce was still in the building, no way Trent would be traded to SF of all teams regardless if it's the best offer.  Supposedly same reason why they wouldn't allegedly trade Kirk to SF for a first rounder.

 

Bruce whether it was for self preservation or he just rolls this way (I'd bet on a combination of those two traits) would feed into Dan's worst instincts and say heck screw Trent and no way we'd give him to Shanny whom we hate. And I'd double up on that point if Dan made that point first where Bruce echoed it and said you bet Dan!

 

I do think Rivera having a GM who he is close to versus that dude being close to the owner, might help here.  I've heard multiple times that Kyle and Jay were super close and they were sort of a group in that building at times versus Dan-Bruce-Doug.   And we talked about each faction getting a victory here and there. 

 

The upshot is the boat isn't all being rowed in the same direction.  And the lead clown on this front seems to be Dan.  People have said who worked there that Dan actually likes this kind of tense environment -- he likes the dissension and fear, etc.  I'd guess he thinks it breeds success for people to be on edge and everyone doesn't get what they want.   And the GM in particular is the dude that Dan has the most access to and tends to usurp. 

 

So if Dan for example says something like hey Bruce don't you agree that Jay has mismanaged this or that and Bruce knows Dan is unhappy then why not throw Jay under the bus because its either him or Jay?  Or whatever scenario of that kind.

 

So having a GM who can be hired or fired by the HC actually takes a little of that craziness away.  If Rivera thought Kyle is stabbing him behind his back, he could just fire him and Kyle knows it.  If Kyle is in charge then he has nothing to lose to cozy up to Dan's instincts and throw whomever under the bus.  And yes Kyle seems like a good guy and would be a stark improvement if he were in charge.  But i've seen good people kowtow to people like Dan if they felt their job was threatened. 

 

Granted it's sad to play out a scenario like that.  But I've seen this stuff in play in different forms.  And thinking about it some -- its very personality driven as opposed to be about hard logic.  Personalities really don't change.  You got to manage personalities like Dan IMO.  It sounds like Gibbs was the best at managing him.  I think Rivera who has a lot of integrity and from I hear great communication skills and is supposedly a great people person might be the ticket to manage Dan, too.  I am not a pollyana about any of this.  But I don't think its wild to try a coach-centric model with Dan largely become it potentially mitigates the divide and conquer culture that seemed to pervade that building.  

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/why-drafting-chase-young-wasnt-most-important-thing-ron-rivera-did-draft-weekend

Fast forward a few years to the first offseason with Ron Rivera at the helm, and things already look much different.

Rivera had plenty of reasons to want to make things difficult for Trent Williams. Despite a meeting that got some positive reviews, Williams still wanted out of Washington. Along the way, Williams' agent accused the organization of not operating in good faith and submarining trade efforts, even though Williams' representatives had gotten permission to work on the trade. 

Eventually, when the best offer came, and it came from San Francisco, Rivera pulled the trigger. He sent Williams to play for Shanahan. 

It was the right move for the Redskins - it allowed the Williams saga to finally end - and it was the right move for Williams. 

It's hard to know what Rivera had to say or do to get ownership on board with the trade. Pressed for details, all the Washington head coach would talk about was that he wanted fair compensation, and felt that the Redskins got it in the form of two draft picks that included a 2021 third-round selection. 

 

The truth is probably that Rivera had to wield his influence to make clear that Williams had to go, and if the best offer was from a Shanahan, so be it. 

And that's the most important takeaway from the Williams trade. 

For months, Rivera has shown he runs Redskins Park. He did it by overhauling the coaching staff, he did it by clearing out the medical staff, and slowly, he's done it with the players in the locker room. He's putting together the team he wants and the players he wants that will act in the manner he wants. 

Not everything was easy. Not trading away Quinton Dunbar for a fifth-round pick, and definitely not all the nonsense that came along during the Trent Williams saga. 

 

In the end, however, Rivera got his team and got his way.

Whatever reservations about working with Shanahan existed, the Redskins got past them. And let's be clear, it's entirely possible Williams and Shanahan are holding a Lombardi Trophy next February. For many at Redskins Park, that will be a tough pill to swallow. 

But here's the thing about getting better - sometimes tough pills must get swallowed. 

Rivera knows that. He took the Redskins job knowing that tough decisions laid ahead, and he also took the job knowing he had full support from ownership. 

That's been a question in the past, and some coaches would say they didn't get full support from ownership. Shanahan said it loudly. 

 

Chase Young could transform the Redskins defense this fall. He could register 10 sacks and become a huge star in his hometown. Still, Rivera getting a trade done with Shanahan, for a star player and franchise cornerstone like Williams, shows real organizational growth.

Young was the easy call. He's a stud. Trading Williams to San Francisco was the hard call, damn near impossible, and Rivera pulled it off. 

In the NFL like in real life, actions matter much more than words. It's easy to say Rivera is the boss and has complete control of football operations. It's another for it to actually happen. 

 

Redskins fans should buy the Chase Young jersey and be excited about his prospects, but at the same time, recognize that the biggest decision from draft weekend didn't come with the second overall pick. 

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4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/why-drafting-chase-young-wasnt-most-important-thing-ron-rivera-did-draft-weekend

Fast forward a few years to the first offseason with Ron Rivera at the helm, and things already look much different.

Rivera had plenty of reasons to want to make things difficult for Trent Williams. Despite a meeting that got some positive reviews, Williams still wanted out of Washington. Along the way, Williams' agent accused the organization of not operating in good faith and submarining trade efforts, even though Williams' representatives had gotten permission to work on the trade. 

Eventually, when the best offer came, and it came from San Francisco, Rivera pulled the trigger. He sent Williams to play for Shanahan. 

It was the right move for the Redskins - it allowed the Williams saga to finally end - and it was the right move for Williams. 

It's hard to know what Rivera had to say or do to get ownership on board with the trade. Pressed for details, all the Washington head coach would talk about was that he wanted fair compensation, and felt that the Redskins got it in the form of two draft picks that included a 2021 third-round selection. 

 

The truth is probably that Rivera had to wield his influence to make clear that Williams had to go, and if the best offer was from a Shanahan, so be it. 

And that's the most important takeaway from the Williams trade. 

 

 

John Lynch was just on with Colin Cowherd and pretty much backs this up.  He said he had a lot of productive conversations with RR, interesting he didn't say Kyle and that RR made them sweat to day 3.  Lynch said he would have much rather had the deal done before the draft.  I'm guessing RR was holding out for Minnesota to get in to a bidding war.  Anyway, Lynch also said TW was sending him video's of him working out.  He didn't say whether that was weeks ago or right before the draft, just that he sent them.  He also said, yes there is risk but he is trusting Kyle who knows TW and he desire to play, work hard, blah, blah, blah....

 

Edited by HigSkin
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Posted (edited)

 

 

48 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

John Lynch was just on with Colin Cowherd and pretty much backs this up.  He said he had a lot of productive conversations with RR, interesting he didn't say Kyle and that RR made them sweat to day 3.  Lynch said he would have much rather had the deal done before the draft.  I'm guessing RR was holding out for Minnesota to get in to a bidding war.  Anyway, Lynch also said TW was sending him video's of him working out.  He didn't say whether that was weeks ago or right before the draft, just that he sent them.  He also said, yes there is risk but he is trusting Kyle who knows TW and he desire to play, work hard, blah, blah, blah....

 

 

Listening to 2 Keim's podcasts about the Trent situation, his account was:

 

A.  Trent did want to go to Minny initially.  It was his agent who actually found them as a trade partner

B.  Minny didn't buy that the Redskins have multiple suitors so they kept their bids low figuring they had nothing to lose

C.  SF then entered once Staley told them he's retiring

D.  Minny could have had Trent if they pulled the trigger early 

E.  Once Trent heard SF was interested that's where he really badly wanted to go not Minny

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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10 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but your points have a vibe that if Rivera likes Kyle so much then he should give up his power of the roster to him.  I don't personally see the two points going hand in hand though.   The reason I posted the Schneider and Carroll article is as much as Carroll loves him he didn't at any point just say I love your work so much that you got it, you are in control, on the rare time we disagree, you have the power to overrule me.  I'd be stunned if Rivera would do the same with Kyle.  And in his shoes 0% chance I'd do it.  Why would he?  Why give up the power to overrule?   The whole idea (whether we like the model or we don't is a separate subject) of a coach centric model is the coach lays out what they want as to the type of players and the GM is beholden to the coach not the other way around. 


Ok, I think I see where the disconnect is. 
 

A coach-centric model in the NFL has not meant, for the vast majority of teams employing it, that the coach has final say over the roster. What it has meant is that the coach was hired first and was involved (or the main driver) in hiring the GM. This is/was the case with the Chiefs, Bills and Niners, for instance. Both the coach and GM have final say over their respective roles relative to their expertise and are both equal in rank within the organization. 
 

The coach with final say is not actually employed often in this “coach-centric” model, so yeah, the issue remains and I’d flip your question to why wouldn’t he? In fact, Ron mentioned those teams above like the Chiefs and Bills, if I recall correctly, as being good examples to this approach. If that’s the case, then again, I’d ask why wouldn’t he follow them in their coach-centric model? 
 

I mentioned before the Niners are an interesting example for us because they had a problematic owner like Dan, and one way they solved that issue is that both Kyle S and John Lynch have, within their contracts, a check on the others “final say” that either can employ. So if John is absolutely against some coaching hire or schematic change Kyle wants he can veto it or if Kyle is absolutely against some player acquisition or cut he can veto it. 
 

That makes it harder for either of them to scapegoat the other and makes them even more tied to the hip. It also makes it harder for one to get the owner to go against the other. They know what it’ll mean if one of them just ignores the other and tries to go rogue, as it’ll end in a veto war. 
 

I had posited a while back that, if we’re so concerned with Dan corrupting someone, then that’ll arguably be a better setup than Dan working through one subject, whether that subject is a coach or GM, either way. It’s like I told you multiple times, your issues with Dan’s personality are issues that aren’t exclusively tied to the GM position. He can cause that problem with whoever is his top exec, including Ron. And if your argument is that Ron is too classy for that, then that also applies to someone in the GM position. 
 

Which is why I always go back to it being more about who (Vinny and Bruce) Dan had at that position than the position itself. Until Dan shows he’s just as problematic with someone qualified and classy at GM, just like we’re assuming with Ron, I’m not going to assume it’s the position/title/role itself versus the actual person. It goes both ways, basically. Does that make sense? 
 

So it’s only the Seahawks within these examples that have a proven, sustainably successful model with the rare setup as is. And even then you have articles like the one you posted saying it’s not what Schneider initially envisioned. It worked out, so that’s what we have to hope will work out, but it’s still an exception and it’s still concerning. 
 

Again, your arguments about Dan all apply to Ron. Saying you’ve seen good people kowtow to Dan when they fear for their jobs, etc... that all applies to Ron, as well. Whoever is Dan’s top exec will have this issue to deal with, period.
 

That is not a quality argument, in my mind, that we shouldn’t have a GM with final say over the roster or that the coach is better suited to have that power. Those are different issues. In fact, both being equal in rank and reporting to Dan instead of one would arguably be a better solution than just one that Dan can create issues with alone that would spread throughout the entire organization. 
 

To put it as simply as possible, your arguments are actually more applicable against any approach we take where one guy is the top exec, coach or GM. They aren’t title/position based. 
 

4 hours ago, HigSkin said:

 

John Lynch was just on with Colin Cowherd and pretty much backs this up.  He said he had a lot of productive conversations with RR, interesting he didn't say Kyle and that RR made them sweat to day 3.  Lynch said he would have much rather had the deal done before the draft.  I'm guessing RR was holding out for Minnesota to get in to a bidding war.  Anyway, Lynch also said TW was sending him video's of him working out.  He didn't say whether that was weeks ago or right before the draft, just that he sent them.  He also said, yes there is risk but he is trusting Kyle who knows TW and he desire to play, work hard, blah, blah, blah....

 

 

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

This article brings it home to me some, too. 

<EDITED FOR LENGTH>

So having a GM who can be hired or fired by the HC actually takes a little of that craziness away.  If Rivera thought Kyle is stabbing him behind his back, he could just fire him and Kyle knows it.  If Kyle is in charge then he has nothing to lose to cozy up to Dan's instincts and throw whomever under the bus.  And yes Kyle seems like a good guy and would be a stark improvement if he were in charge.  But i've seen good people kowtow to people like Dan if they felt their job was threatened. 

 

Granted it's sad to play out a scenario like that.  But I've seen this stuff in play in different forms.  And thinking about it some -- its very personality driven as opposed to be about hard logic.  Personalities really don't change.  You got to manage personalities like Dan IMO.  It sounds like Gibbs was the best at managing him.  I think Rivera who has a lot of integrity and from I hear great communication skills and is supposedly a great people person might be the ticket to manage Dan, too.  I am not a pollyana about any of this.  But I don't think its wild to try a coach-centric model with Dan largely become it potentially mitigates the divide and conquer culture that seemed to pervade that building.  

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/why-drafting-chase-young-wasnt-most-important-thing-ron-rivera-did-draft-weekend


So, like I said, I think using the Niners as an example is an argument against your thinking here and actually fits mine perfectly. 
 

Notice the irony of @HigSkinpointing out that Ron, not Kyle Smith, is the one doing the talking with Lynch, while forgetting/ignoring that on the Niners side, who were just in the Super Bowl, we have Lynch (GM with final say over the roster) doing the talking and not Kyle Shanahan. I mean, which model should we be shooting for here? 
 

And, like I said, they solved the issue of a problematic owner by employing the “coach-centric” model, but it only meant that Kyle got to choose his GM and that they’d be equal in rank, not that his GM wasn’t going to get final say over the roster. 
 

Essentially, there are different ways of solving the Dan problem without it meaning someone at the coaching level, who has never had final say over player personnel, simply has to have it or retain it if/when they promote someone to GM. That’s where we’re going to differ and I’m not seeing an argument given to me here that refutes any of my points on the matter. Using the Niners only boosts my understanding as presented. 
 

I won’t post any articles as there are dozens of them, but just search Kyle Shanahan, John Lynch, and Jed York together and you’ll find a lot on this. 
 

But I’ll just reiterate one more time that, if Ron does retain that power, I’ll be rooting that we’re an extremely rare exception like the Seahawks and hoping my concerns don’t come to fruition. 

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Ok, to get back to the main theme of my first post in this thread, which was overall positive and where I mentioned that FA suggested they were satisfied with rolling cap over to 2021 and not just spending for the sake of it... I’m ecstatic about this: 

 

 

 Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but have we ever been projected to have this much Cap space during the Snyder era? I don’t think so. 
 

To me, this only speaks more to the fact that this was truly an organizational reset and a true rebuild is actually happening here. Not a half-assed version we’ve always been given. 
 

Very cool. 

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Posted (edited)

@thesubmittedone

 

I get your point.  But once Rivera already was given final say why would he voluntarily give it up?  I think part of the issue in getting someone of Rivera's caliber to come here is in part because I gather many in the league don't alas see this an attractive job.  It's been a loser organization, with 2nd rate facilities and an owner who is considered difficult and obtuse.

 

If we had a normal owner and considered a well run organization, I'd think it would be a different story where we can dictate the terms for attractive coaching candidates.  I recall several national media talking head types were shocked that Rivera took that job here.  I recall Todd McShay among them saying something to the effect of wow for someone with Rivera's status who could get other jobs -- he thought it was wild as did most of his colleagues that he took the Redskins HC job because it was far from the pick of the litter.

 

I don't think Rivera has the reputation of being an elite coach but he's a good one who likely could find a better job than here.  Shanny ditto when he arrived.  But the organization is much deeper in a hole now than it was when Shanny took over.   

 

So I think you almost have to give some type of major concession to someone like Rivera to bring him on.    I am not as bothered as you are I gather with him having final say as long as its at best a formality and based on what I've read that's how it's been thus far.  As for why then not just give up that formality?  My counter point is he already has that power, so why give it up either even if you don't really use it or just plan to use it once in a blue moon? 

 

It would be like my wife agreeing to give me final say on every take out order we do and I in turn don't really use that power but I think its cool that I have it on the off chance we have a rare tie breaker.   Later on, I wouldn't voluntarily go to my wife and say I've been going with your recommendations anyway so what the heck I'll strip that tie breaking power from me and give it to you so you can overrule me on the off chance we disagree.  Because I need you to save me from myself.  I can't see what would motivate me to do it?  😀

 

Now Bruce publicly liked to play it down that he had final say.  But why did it bother me in that case?  It's because i didn't believe him.  It was because I read-heard many times Bruce used that final say plenty to do what he wanted.  And I do not think Bruce is competent or even a football guy.  Shanny bothered me too.  Now in his case, he at least was a football guy.  But I read-heard too many times that he fancied himself a defacto personnel guru and acted accordingly.  Now if I heard that same type of story about Rivera, everything about this model would bug me.  But I'll wait for a story or two of that kind before I am bugged by it. 

 

As to the SF stuff, I don't mind Rivera negotiating the parameters of a trade.  I think he'd be ideal for it if anything because he's likeable and his good interpersonal skills.  And from my experience those type of people are typically good negotiators because they are trusted.  Bruce wasn't that dude. He wasn't trusted and he's too slimy and emotional to do right by the organization IMO.    And Kyle's expertise isn't about negotiation but scouting players.  and i'd bet they went over it with each other.  Guys who cover the team keep saying Rivera and Kyle are inseparable in that building and constantly talk. 

 

As for the Dan can corrupt anyone at the top point.  I get your point but we've done this dance before in these discussions.  In my view it's a lot easier to corrupt the GM than the HC based on the stories that I've read-heard about how Dan rolls.  Clearly, you don't agree with me on that.  So let's agree to disagree on that point.  😀

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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See, to me so much of this conversation has little to nothing to do with football, and is more about egos and psychology. Rivera is forced to deal with all that while not falling into those traps while at the same time trying to rebuild the franchise. Thats a LOT to juggle at one time. The more fine-grained the structure and fewer sharply defined titles and divisions of power make for fewer fault lines to be exploited by TheDan who seemingly can't help himself at doing that. Bringing in a guy like Del Rio, well known, good resume and rep, and making him "subordinate" in title only running the D and second-in-command to Ron again makes a tougher nut to crack. Replacing the vast majority of staff from outside eliminates any of the "insiders" that have gotten used to genuflecting to the owner, transferring loyalty to a guy that doesn't want a bended knee, he wants the damned thing to work.

 

I get that the current structure is not typical or optimal, and yeah, I get that we have stepped on out collective crank so many times that we are effectively eunuchs but "demo before you rebuild" is my mantra here. If you give the TheDan something that even smacks of typical, he will exploit it to self-medicate his psyche, even when he knows it's wrong. Allen was a fustercluck, TheDan had to know that but he couldn't help himself, he needed that golf in the office attention even when it was making a bad situation worse. 

 

Can't fix TheDan, it would take something personally cataclysmic to reach him that way and no "employee" can ever have that kind of power. The best scenario is that Ron & Co. are stalwart and unified enough to make him understand that he needs to get his fix elsewhere and not use the franchise as his own action figure playthings.

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Posted (edited)

I missed the interview with Sheehan and Rivera but will catch up with it later.  I know in the mix of things Rivera said apparently that he learned that indeed they could have gotten a first round pick for Trent last year.

 

Rivera obviously got that from people in the building.  As I've said Bruce was bad enough handling Kirk's contract, FA, trades, among many others things and I 100% believe now Mike Jones when he said they could have gotten SF's first rounder for Kirk (top 5 pick) when he said Kyle told that to him to his face in the moment back then.

 

I used to say Bruce was just a hair better than Vinny.  Last year I changed my mind and said Bruce was worse.  Now I'd say Bruce by a mile was worse than Vinny.  IMO he was the lead clown in the team's demise along with Dan. 

 

On an aside, I love Keim but he and Standig were the ones swearing that the national reporters and some other locals were wrong about the first rounder and they swore they never got an offer above a 2nd.  And they were big time defiant about it.   Who knows.  But I'd trust Rivera would know better than them. 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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While $118 mil in cap space sounds wonderful, I wouldn’t expect us to use that towards free agents. Rather, I see a large percentage going to resigning/restructuring/extending our own players. Allen, Sherff, and Kerrigan first and foremost. 

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