China Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Cities And States Are Saying No To Cashless Shops After almost 10 minutes of standing in line at a coffee shop, Ritchie Torres realized he only had cash in his pocket — a form of payment no longer accepted by this store. "It was a humiliating experience," he said. "I remember wondering aloud, how could a business refuse to accept cash, which is legal tender?" Torres is a City Council member in New York. He says his constituents, especially seniors, have also complained about a spurt of cashless stores. So Torres led the charge on a bill to ban businesses from rejecting cash, which New York's city leaders passed almost unanimously last month. A similar ban is slated for a hearing in Washington, D.C., on Feb. 13. In the past year, Philadelphia, San Francisco and the state of New Jersey have also banned cashless stores — a rare case of governments fighting a tech trend before it spreads far. Massachusetts has required establishments to accept cash since 1978. "A cashless economy is not an inclusive economy," said Tazra Mitchell, policy director at the research and advocacy group DC Fiscal Policy Institute. Excluding people from paying with cash means "essentially discriminating against people who are low-income, people who are homeless, also undocumented," she said. Click on the link for the full article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 This is a really complex and interesting (to me) topic. On the one hand, business should be able to choose how they want to operate so long as they are not discriminating against a protected class. On the other hand, it is also true that certain types of people tend to carry cash, so while accepting/not accepting cash is not facially discriminatory, carrying cash is a pretty good proxy for certain types of people, and therefore there is a discriminatory effect. In housing and employment, this is referred to a "disparate impact" theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_impact The rule or practice or whatever is facially neutral, but in actual practice, it tends to harm certain groups and not others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 My new boutique is cashless...but the clothes are pricey and the coffee is free, so I think we’ll be alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Can a business charge more for cash vs credit? I see it all the time with credit at gas stations...wonder I'd the opposite is allowable too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 It irks me when people do crap like this. But usually I can understand - the merchant card fees to are high is usually the reason. I don’t like it but I get it. not accepting cash seems like it should be illegal to me. It’s official government tender. I say that as a person that almost never uses cash (my cc rewards are too good to give up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 25 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: Can a business charge more for cash vs credit? I see it all the time with credit at gas stations...wonder I'd the opposite is allowable too. It used to be forbidden by merchant services (the credit card processor) to charge for using credit cards. businesses need to take the coin of the realm unless there is good reason not to imo add I bought a stove the other day at Homedepot and they would not take cash unless `I went to the customer service dept...wtf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 17 minutes ago, tshile said: It irks me when people do crap like this. But usually I can understand - the merchant card fees to are high is usually the reason. I don’t like it but I get it. not accepting cash seems like it should be illegal to me. It’s official government tender. I say that as a person that almost never uses cash (my cc rewards are too good to give up) Just because it's official government tender doesn't mean anyone has to accept it for the purchase of consumer goods (one must accept it as payment of debts). If they don't want to exchange their goods for whatever someone is offering, they don't have to. I am also a person that doesn't carry cash, and it really irks me when I'm trying to buy one thing and grandma in front of me is counting out pennies to pay for her whatever. MOVE GRANDMA NOT ALL OF US ARE RETIRED. I 100% believe we should get rid of the penny. **** the penny, is what I'm saying. Personal preferences aside, (1) old people aren't going to change and we should all be nice to our elders, (2) about 8% of people can't get a bank account and nobody else should be forced to have a bank account if they don't want one, and (3) most of the people that can't get a bank account or can only get one that charges ridiculous fees are people of color, so stores going cashless is a sneaky way to discriminate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrilbo67 Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Philosophically I'm against it, but a good friend of mine runs a brewery where his taproom is cashless and he explained it this way: 1) almost everyone has a credit card these days, especially in the demographic that visits craft brewery taprooms, so there's almost zero convenience issue with his customers; 2) cash is a logistical nightmare as it involves him (or one of his employees) going to the bank almost daily; its just one extra thing he has to do as a small business owner; 3) it's also a security issue, not just in transporting it, but even in keeping it at the brewery; they're opening themselves up to getting robbed (not to mention employee theft); 4) the processing fees have reduced significantly since square first came out a few years ago, so it doesn't cost him that much. I'm sure he's pissed off a customer or two along the way, but its hard to argue the logic. They do keep a tip jar at the bar so customers can tip cash if they feel compelled but that's the extent of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooka Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 14 minutes ago, twa said: add I bought a stove the other day at Homedepot and they would not take cash unless `I went to the customer service dept...wtf? Probably a security measure against shady looking characters.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 20 minutes ago, Mooka said: Probably a security measure against shady looking characters.... I admit to being the type security folk perk up around. The wife complains when I dress down to spend large sums.....my new bank teller thought I was a vagrant wandering off the street. 😎 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 5 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said: Just because it's official government tender doesn't mean anyone has to accept it for the purchase of consumer goods (one must accept it as payment of debts). If they don't want to exchange their goods for whatever someone is offering, they don't have to. I am also a person that doesn't carry cash, and it really irks me when I'm trying to buy one thing and grandma in front of me is counting out pennies to pay for her whatever. MOVE GRANDMA NOT ALL OF US ARE RETIRED. I 100% believe we should get rid of the penny. **** the penny, is what I'm saying. Personal preferences aside, (1) old people aren't going to change and we should all be nice to our elders, (2) about 8% of people can't get a bank account and nobody else should be forced to have a bank account if they don't want one, and (3) most of the people that can't get a bank account or can only get one that charges ridiculous fees are people of color, so stores going cashless is a sneaky way to discriminate. I did that once. I got a big meal by paying all pennies. Of course this was back in the 90's; when a Big Mac meal can be had for $3-$4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 6 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said: Just because it's official government tender doesn't mean anyone has to accept it for the purchase of consumer goods (one must accept it as payment of debts). I’m not arguing that you’re wrong about what the actual laws/requirements are but I think that’s wrong. I don’t really have a good reason other than it feels wrong. i don’t like the feeling I imagine I’d get if someone said - no you can’t buy that because I won’t take you’re American dollars. Also re:penny I don’t see the point in change at all to be honest. I suppose by that logic I shouldn’t care about the dollar but I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 9 hours ago, tshile said: I’m not arguing that you’re wrong about what the actual laws/requirements are but I think that’s wrong. I don’t really have a good reason other than it feels wrong. i don’t like the feeling I imagine I’d get if someone said - no you can’t buy that because I won’t take you’re American dollars. Also re:penny I don’t see the point in change at all to be honest. I suppose by that logic I shouldn’t care about the dollar but I do. This all seems reasonable except your stance on the penny, which I cannot abide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 If I were a city, I would pass a law requiring businesses to accept both cash and card payments. There are probably more businesses that are cash only than cashless, both equally annoying and inconvenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I don’t understand how not accepting cash hurts poor people, unless the people we are talking about are working under the table, outside of the taxing system. literally anyone can get a secured credit card, most people can get a debit card that can be used as credit to avoid frees, and government assistance is given as credit. going cashless creates a money trail that is traceable to companies, which hire poor people and illegal immigrants, pay them almost nothing, and avoid paying payroll tax, social security, etc... so I wonder if these places which are making cashless stores illegal have large amounts of algricultural workers whose bosses lobby the government for this under a false pretext.... I just saw the point about homeless people. I guess that is true, to an extent. But, instead of making cashless stores illegal, a more creative approach would be to create a tax on cashless stores, with the money going to help those groups in a more structured way. That way, the businesses save time/money not having to use cash, and homeless get the help they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 9 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: going cashless creates a money trail that is traceable to companies traceable to any purchaser is my objection, and thus capable of rendering individuals unable to purchase anything...or limiting what you may purchase. I'm not as trusting of corps and govt as you seem to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 1 hour ago, No Excuses said: If I were a city, I would pass a law requiring businesses to accept both cash and card payments. There are probably more businesses that are cash only than cashless, both equally annoying and inconvenient. What about a property management company. Should they be required to take cash from tenants for monthly rent payments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrilbo67 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 34 minutes ago, daveakl said: What about a property management company. Should they be required to take cash from tenants for monthly rent payments? Typically, 'cash' in that context entails a written check or direct withdrawal as well, and almost every property management company from which I've rented accepted those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 1 hour ago, twa said: traceable to any purchaser is my objection, and thus capable of rendering individuals unable to purchase anything...or limiting what you may purchase. I'm not as trusting of corps and govt as you seem to be. Fair thought, but what could they really do with the average persons cash purchase history? What do you buy with cash that you don’t want tracked? Weeds practically legal nowadays.. I’m a pretty basic ****. I doubt the government or corps would find me that interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskinss Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I always have both so personally I don't care all that much. It does irk the hell out of me when they have a minimum for debit card purchases or a discount for cash though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 11 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said: This all seems reasonable except your stance on the penny, which I cannot abide. No I mean “change at all” as in pennies nickels dimes and quarters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveakl Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 9 hours ago, wrilbo67 said: Typically, 'cash' in that context entails a written check or direct withdrawal as well, and almost every property management company from which I've rented accepted those. Totally fine. I mean paper money cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 10 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Fair thought, but what could they really do with the average persons cash purchase history? What do you buy with cash that you don’t want tracked? Weeds practically legal nowadays.. I’m a pretty basic ****. I doubt the government or corps would find me that interesting. habits. locations are two obvious ones......though I admit my authoritarian side could see that beneficial for deportations and criminal arrests ect. Interesting is in the eye of the beholder if they have the power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmarydu Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 I agree with twa, about habits & locations. (Although with cameras everywhere & phone tracking, "they" know what you're doing anyway.) But they shouldn't. And it's not about "well, I'm not doing anything wrong, why should I care?" If that were really true, we'd be building houses of glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 On 2/7/2020 at 4:44 PM, PleaseBlitz said: I 100% believe we should get rid of the penny. **** the penny, is what I'm saying. As memory serves: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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