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Joe Theismann would be a Hall of Famer if....


kfrankie

Would Joe T. be in the HOF if the Redskins had won Super Bowl XVIII?  

48 members have voted

  1. 1. Would Joe T be in the HOF if the Redskins had won Super Bowl XVIII?

    • Yes
      26
    • No
      22


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14 minutes ago, profusion said:

Every other QB with two SB rings is in. Joe would be, too, as will Eli in five years.

 

 

The QB that beat the Redskins in 18 isn't in.

 

He also was the QB who beat the Eagles in SB 15.

 

Plunkett isn't in and Eli Manning won't get in 5 years from now either. Just watch.

 

Eli led the league in only one stat but he led 3 times in his career. Interceptions. 0 All Pros, was the 3rd or 4th QB on only 4 pro bowl teams. Never elite or even a top 5 QB. Hell he was never better than Favre/Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Ryan, McNabb, Wilson or Stafford in the NFC.

 

His team won 2 SB's because their defense shut teams down and the offense could have won with Jason Campbell having a good 0 INT day. A handful of decent, not puking on yourself, playoff games in 16 below average NFL seasons is not a HOF career.

 

Joe Theismann isn't getting in. Should he?

 

Naa.

 

Neither should have Namath or Aikman. Just because those guys are in is why idiots give Average Eli a chance.

 

Keep the average dudes out of the HOF.

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42 minutes ago, profusion said:

Every other QB with two SB rings is in. Joe would be, too, as will Eli in five years.

 

I think the grading was tougher when Joe first became eligible, and he is starting to be forgotten compared to newer retirees. Now, as is, I don't think Joe rates. He played on legendarily stacked teams and only got one trophy. Imagine what Marino would have done with a supporting cast like that (both sides of the ball).

Actually, I'm not sure that's true. For one thing, only a few HOFers played with Joe and two of them (Monk and Grimm were controversial choices who had to wait a long, long time until they grudgingly were allowed in.)Grimm. For another, Joe was the QB at the start of the glory years. Theismann didn't have the Posse. He had the Smurfs and an aging Riggo who had to spend most weeks in traction before being rolled out on Sundays. Don't confuse the 91 team with the teams of 81-85.

 

The crazy thing is, despite the constant argument that none of the Redskins are/were Hall of Fame worthy, Joe Gibbs is not really mentioned in their first breath of greatest coaches in football history.  If the HOF voters are correct and the Redskins really got to four Super Bowls in three years with no (or only marginally) HOF worthy players then no one should ever mention Walsh, Landry, Shula, or Lombardi before talking about Joe.

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26 minutes ago, Burgold said:

If the HOF voters are correct and the Redskins really got to four Super Bowls in three years with no (or only marginally) HOF worthy players then no one should ever mention Walsh, Landry, Shula, or Lombardi before talking about Joe.

 

New article on ESPN:

 

Coach Bill Belichick
Career:
Cleveland Browns, 1991-95; New England Patriots, 2000-present
There are others, such as Paul Brown, who defined and shaped how people have done the job for decades. And Don Shula, who has the most wins and oversaw the only undefeated season, is in the conversation. Yes, Belichick was fired from his first NFL head coaching job and has a losing record in games in which Tom Brady was not the starting quarterback, but in the end, six Super Bowl wins in nine Super Bowl trips trumps it all -- Belichick, Shula and Tom Landry are the only coaches in league history to even get to more than four Super Bowls. He has amassed 31 postseason victories and his tactical work as an assistant, long before he was a head coach, is still seen today. His ability to sustain success in the era of free agency and salary cap makes the Patriots' dynasty more impressive.
Start the argument with: Paul Brown (Cleveland Browns, Cincinnati Bengals), Joe Gibbs (Washington Redskins), Bill Walsh (San Francisco 49ers), Don Shula (Baltimore Colts), Vince Lombardi (Green Bay Packers, Washington Redskins)

 

Joe Gibbs is mentioned here.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27321515/tom-brady-joe-montana-choosing-nfl-greatest-ever-position

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27 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

New article on ESPN:

 

Coach Bill Belichick
Career:
Cleveland Browns, 1991-95; New England Patriots, 2000-present
There are others, such as Paul Brown, who defined and shaped how people have done the job for decades. And Don Shula, who has the most wins and oversaw the only undefeated season, is in the conversation. Yes, Belichick was fired from his first NFL head coaching job and has a losing record in games in which Tom Brady was not the starting quarterback, but in the end, six Super Bowl wins in nine Super Bowl trips trumps it all -- Belichick, Shula and Tom Landry are the only coaches in league history to even get to more than four Super Bowls. He has amassed 31 postseason victories and his tactical work as an assistant, long before he was a head coach, is still seen today. His ability to sustain success in the era of free agency and salary cap makes the Patriots' dynasty more impressive.
Start the argument with: Paul Brown (Cleveland Browns, Cincinnati Bengals), Joe Gibbs (Washington Redskins), Bill Walsh (San Francisco 49ers), Don Shula (Baltimore Colts), Vince Lombardi (Green Bay Packers, Washington Redskins)

 

Joe Gibbs is mentioned here.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27321515/tom-brady-joe-montana-choosing-nfl-greatest-ever-position

Glad to see the mention, but Joe deserves more credit and more than a mention in the after-thoughts. Of course, I'm completely biased. Joe Gibbs with Tom Brady would probably have won ten Super Bowls in his first Eight years! (Yes, you read that right!!!)

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3 hours ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

With all due respect from someone who lived through that era and watched Joe N play every Sunday as I lived in the NY area I still say Joe N does not belong in the HOF. Joe N had nothing to do with the merger and thereal answer is "the bottom line." The NFL had a monopoly on drafting college players before the AFL arrived and after a few years the NFL knew the AFL was not going away so the greedy NFL owners wanted a merger as they lost control over the players salaries and ESP over draftees. Joe N was a good QB but he was more lucky than good. He was in the right place at the right time when both leagues were bidding on his salary. The NY media made Joe N into a rock star. I dought if he would be this famous if he played in Pitt or Cindy at the time. He had a good arm but I would not put him on the same overall level as any of the top QBs in history. The Jets HAD to put together a good team as they played in NY and wanted to replace the Giants as fan favorites and for the fan dollar. Most of the other teams in the AFL had cast offs or subpar NFL players on the O line and non glamorous positions to save money and Joe N played them every week, yet he still threw more ints than he did TDs. Still there were some good AFL teams like the Raiders and Chiefs who everyone knew could compete with NFL teams so most people thought a merger was comming anyway. As far Super Bowl 3 the Colts were heavy favorites but in reality they were starting a back up QB that everyone forgets about when they had the best QB of his time sitting the bench in John Unitis. Still drives me crazy that a coach could do that. Same scenario that got Casey fired when in the 60 World Series he started R Terry and had 2 Cy Young winners sitting on the bench, one being W Ford who went on to win 2 games that series. So Broadway Joe looses his temper as he is being asked how his team can't beat the Colts so he shoots his mouth off and states,  "we are gonna win the game, " and yes the Jets pull off a upset but Joe gets all the credit as usual but he is carried by a great running game and he did not even throw a TD pass in that game. In fact I don't even think he threw a pass in the second half yet he is named MVP when Boozer should have received it. Sure winning  Super Bowl 3 gave the AFL some credibility but lots of fans still thought the Jets were not as good as the Colts but IMO the Chiefs did a better job in SB4 by destroying the Vikes. I then knew the AFL was for real. So yes, I still think Joe N is overrated and if you want to put him into the HOF fine but it should say somewhere that he has more ints than TDs and he had a loosing record as a starter and he was made by the NY media. In plain English he was a self promoted money maker for the media more than he was a QB, see panty hose commercial for more info on how great he was and add that NFL defences treated him with kid gloves as they felt if he was knocked out of the league it would hurt everyone financially. Cheers.

 

 

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57 minutes ago, DazedSkinsfan said:

I bet if they played for Dallas or Pittsburgh they would have been in years ago 

What about our own Jerry Smith who when he retired had more TDs and catches then any other TE and has better stats than Mike Ditka who is in the hall. We all know the HOF is a popularity contest. Look at the Pitt coach that just got in. ONE SUPER BOWL WIN and yes he won a lot of games but does everyone forget he LOST 4 CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES AT HOME WHEN HE WAS A DOUBLE DIGIT FAVORITE. No problem, he is on tv every week and he coached Pitt.

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I forgot about Plunkett being another 2-time titlist who isn't in the HOF.

 

This is starting to sound like arguments about who should be in the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. 😄

 

I suspect that championship rings mean a lot more than yellow jackets to all these guys.

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21 hours ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

What about our own Jerry Smith who when he retired had more TDs and catches then any other TE and has better stats than Mike Ditka who is in the hall. We all know the HOF is a popularity contest. Look at the Pitt coach that just got in. ONE SUPER BOWL WIN and yes he won a lot of games but does everyone forget he LOST 4 CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES AT HOME WHEN HE WAS A DOUBLE DIGIT FAVORITE. No problem, he is on tv every week and he coached Pitt.

 

Ditka changed the position though. It's different, right?

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Joe did something the night before the Super Bowl that he should not have done.  After the Super Bowl loss he was going to open a restaurant in Virginia

so he had his attorneys go to court and have his case sealed so the mistake he made would never be revealed to the public.  So Joe could have

been in the Hall of Fame if he had won that Super Bowl AND if he had used better judgement the night before the Super Bowl.

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I have to admit, I was caught off guard by the thread title and voted yes. Eli Manning will probably get in mainly because of his 2 SBs and Joe probably would have too. Thanks to Rocket Screen and Marcus Allen and other factors, the second SB after an unbelievable season was not to be. Therefore, Joe in the Hall not to be.

At least not as a QB. Maybe as a punter/punt returner. Oops, forgot about that 12 yard punt out of his end zone against the Bears.

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On 1/27/2020 at 11:20 AM, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

Ditka changed the position though. It's different, right?

Yes Ditka was included in the way the game was changing around that time with more passing. The AFL had a lot to do with that as they advertised the fact that they were more exciting because of passing than the ground and pound NFL. For my money I would take Mackey over Ditka but they were close. Both in the hall but our own Jerry Smith had more TD catches than both of them yet he is not in the HOF. Biggest farce I can think of. I would take Smith over both Mackey and Ditka for receiving. 

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4 hours ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Joe did something the night before the Super Bowl that he should not have done.  After the Super Bowl loss he was going to open a restaurant in Virginia

so he had his attorneys go to court and have his case sealed so the mistake he made would never be revealed to the public.  So Joe could have

been in the Hall of Fame if he had won that Super Bowl AND if he had used better judgement the night before the Super Bowl.

 

I've always heard rumors about the team partying too much the week beforehand and being over confident.  Care to elaborate on Joe?

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On 1/26/2020 at 1:43 PM, 50yrSKINSfan said:

What about our own Jerry Smith who when he retired had more TDs and catches then any other TE and has better stats than Mike Ditka who is in the hall. 

He deserves to be in, especially when you consider how long his career TDs record stood all the way up to Shannon Sharpe breaking it, despite the fact that Jerry played mostly before the no contact after 5 yards rule.

But...Jerry was gay and died of AIDS when the NFL and society were not yet accepting of that lifestyle.

And no, Cowher did not deserve to be in. Tomlin has done better with that team.

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I voted yes, but I'm not sure I actually believe it. Just he would've gotten a lot more consideration.

 

If they had won that game, the Gibbs Skins have 4 titles and there would be more of a push to get more guys in. I think Jacoby would be in and maybe some deserved consideration for Clark.

On 1/26/2020 at 9:10 AM, Burgold said:

  If the HOF voters are correct and the Redskins really got to four Super Bowls in three years 

I'm pretty sure that would be a record. 

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  • 11 months later...
On 1/24/2020 at 4:45 PM, kfrankie said:

So its the offseason and not much is going on.  Time for some new discussion.  My argument is that Joe Theismann would be in the Hall of Fame if he had led the Redskins to victory in Super Bowl XVIII instead of suffering that humiliating defeat to the Raiders.  I've always felt that the best way to measure a players "greatness" was to compare him to his contemporaries.  So for a bit of perspective, here is a list of the 6 years averages (1979-1984) for the best quarterbacks to play alongside of Joe in the prime of their careers, and their win/loss records as starters:

 

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Note that Sipe did not play in the NFL in 1984, Montana played sparingly as a rookie, and Plunkett was in and out. Of this group, Montana and Fouts, clearly stand out.  Montana's 92.7 rating set him apart, as does Fouts' passing yardage average.  Both of HOFers for good reason.   As far as winning won/loss records, surprisingly its Plunkett and Danny White that finish on top, although Plunkett only averaged about 7.7 starts. 

 

So out of these categories, Joe ranks 4th in Win %, but 1st in total wins, 3rd in average yards, 2nd in average TD passes, and 2nd lowest Int %.   Both Montana and Plunkett went to and won 2 super bowls.  Theismann went 1-1 in Superbowls.  Anderson and Jaworski went to one and lost.  Both Fouts and Danny White got as far as the conference championships.

 

Theismann was a pro bowler in 1979, and 1982 and 1983.  He was the NFL's MVP in 1983.  Montana was a pro bowler in 1981, 1983 and 1984, MVP in 1984, .  Sipe was the NFL's MVP in 1980 in his lone pro bowl season, but was 2nd Team AP in 1979 too.  Anderson was the MVP in 1981, and a pro bowler in 1981 and 1982. Fouts was a pro bowler each year except 1984, and won AP Offensive POY in 1982 and 1st team AP in 1979.  Jaws was a pro bowler and bert bell NFL MVP in 1980.  I won't waste any time on Danny White.

 

So the way I see it, if Joe wins it in 1983 he's a shoe-in for the HOF.  He'd have two super bowl victories, an NFL MVP award, and multiple pro bowls.  Granted he wasn't a full time starter until age 29, but neither was Roger Staubach.  Maybe not first ballet, but he'd be in.  In fact, there's even an argument that he should be in anyway.  I've always believed that if a player in the NFL's MVP, that means he was the best player in the league at one point and that's an unbelievable accomplishment. Except for Mark Mosley.  And Sipe.

 

 

 

Joe Theismann is the best QB not currently in the Hall Of Fame.  He is the only retired QB with a Super Bowl win (1982) and an NFL MVP award (1983) who is not in the HOF.  

 

Among his Hall of Fame QB contemporaries, Theismann has more passing yards than Staubach and almost as many passing yards as Bradshaw.  Theismann had a better TD/INT ratio than Bradshaw and he was a better QB than Bradshaw.  Theismann also had one of the best winning percentages all-time of any QB.  He should definitely be in the HOF.

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On 1/25/2020 at 10:02 AM, Voice_of_Reason said:

Joe basically started like 4 good years.  No, he isn’t a HOFer.  
 

He’s a Redskin legend.  But gays different. 

 

If you say so.  Theismann has more passing yards than Staubach and almost as many as Bradshaw.  And he has a better TD/INT ratio than Bradshaw.

 

Theismann was the best QB in the league for 2 years (1982 & 1983).  He should be in the Hall Of Fame.  

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On 1/25/2020 at 10:13 AM, kingdaddy said:

Joe also led the team to a league record number of points in that 83 season....a historic season that makes the Redskins one of the best teams ever not to win a SB.

 

Even today, the 1983 Redskins is still among the highest scoring teams of all-time (currently ranked #9).  That is very impressive when you consider that defenses back then had a lot more advantages than they do nowadays.  They were ranked #1 for at least 10 years, I believe.

 

The 1983 Redskins was the best in team history.  And they still hold an NFL record that will NEVER be broken:  +43 turnover ratio.  No other team even comes close to that.

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On 1/25/2020 at 6:10 PM, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

That's not all the Hall of Fame is about. You can't tell the story of the NFL without Namath's legacy and famous guarantee, in many people's opinion. I agree that out of that context, he shouldn't be in. But the Hall is also about emotion in that regard. It's not JUST cold stats. 

 

The only reason you would need to talk about Joey T when telling the NFL's story, really, would be if you're talking about LT.

 

That's pretty silly.  In the early 1980s, people were talking about the Redskins as the next Pittsburgh Steelers dynasty.  They lost a total of 3 games during 1982 - 1983. 

 

Theismann was the best QB in the league during those 2 years.  He should be in the HOF.  

On 1/26/2020 at 7:19 AM, profusion said:

Every other QB with two SB rings is in. Joe would be, too, as will Eli in five years.

 

I think the grading was tougher when Joe first became eligible, and he is starting to be forgotten compared to newer retirees. Now, as is, I don't think Joe rates. He played on legendarily stacked teams and only got one trophy. Imagine what Marino would have done with a supporting cast like that (both sides of the ball).

 

Marino was not better than Theismann.  

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On 1/25/2020 at 8:30 PM, skins island connection said:

 

 I used to gush over the HOF possible inductees when I was a young whippersnapper, hoping one of my favorite team's players would get voted in.

But then I began to pay a little more attention to some of the people in, and its sort of tilted in certain teams' favor, like Green Bay.

 

They've for the most part inducted everyone except the towel boy!  Now, " th' Hogs " are the most achieved, popular and bulldozing offensive lines EVER in the NFL, yet only 1 guy has been voted in. Green Bay has pretty much their entire o-line in, and they weren't anything exciting; unless I missed it, I don't recall people bragging about how great their line was, it was their QB, coach, and a WR, who got them their championships, yet half their damn team is in the HOF!

 

So the HOF completely dropped off my radar when they first denied Art Monk. He was a more-then-achieved WR, a great man on and off the football field, set records, won Superbowls, and commanded double teams a lot. But because of a couple of haters on the HOF committee, they denied him, for no good damn reason, until it was widely mentioned how Monk had been denied year after year, and pressure was heating up big time, until the assholes caved in and said just let him in and get it over with.

 

Now, that's not the kind of response you'd like to hear from this committee, but they were a smug bunch of pricks who voted in players with more off-field issues than on-field accomplishments. IMO, Theismann should be in; he went to 2 Superbowls back-to-back, won one of them, led the team to a record-setting point scoring frenzy, and  left it on the field every time he played. Was he a motormouth? Sure, so what!  There's a number of players whose mouths were bigger than their accomplishments and never WENT to a Superbowl, yet they got the jacket and bust. They were not game-changers either, just players who played for a longer than average number of years { we now call these players wiley ol' vets } and slowly built up their numbers, and many times nowhere near enough more than others who are not in today.

 

So, yes! Joey T., Mark May, Joe Jacoby, Gary Clark, Jeff Bostic, ALL should be in the HOF. I'd even say Joe Bugel, being the coach of the o-line { if he isn't in already }.  Its not being a burgundy glass-wearing fan, but a realist, especially when you compare them to those in now who have much less in accomplishments...

 

I totally agree with you.  A lot of younger Washington fans don't realize how good Theismann was.  He was the best QB in the league for two years during 1982 - 1983 and there aren't many QBs that you can say that about.  He should be in the HOF. 

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On 1/26/2020 at 9:10 AM, Burgold said:

Actually, I'm not sure that's true. For one thing, only a few HOFers played with Joe and two of them (Monk and Grimm were controversial choices who had to wait a long, long time until they grudgingly were allowed in.)Grimm. For another, Joe was the QB at the start of the glory years. Theismann didn't have the Posse. He had the Smurfs and an aging Riggo who had to spend most weeks in traction before being rolled out on Sundays. Don't confuse the 91 team with the teams of 81-85.

 

The crazy thing is, despite the constant argument that none of the Redskins are/were Hall of Fame worthy, Joe Gibbs is not really mentioned in their first breath of greatest coaches in football history.  If the HOF voters are correct and the Redskins really got to four Super Bowls in three years with no (or only marginally) HOF worthy players then no one should ever mention Walsh, Landry, Shula, or Lombardi before talking about Joe.

Walsh is considered the creator of the WCO.  In fact, he was very much part of the reason that footwork is so important for QB projection. He never lost a SB. He is responsible for several successful HCs.

Landry is why corners are called corners, why there are 4 dbs in standard defenses (the strong safety was pretty much his invention), very significant to the way defenses reads offenses and he is also known for several offensive innovations still used today. He took his team to 5 SBs and only did so badly because he had the misfortune of being second fiddle to the steel curtain. He also developed at least two very successful coaches.

Lombardi went 5-1 in championship games. He was the one who brought the zone blocking scheme to the NFL. He is also considered the man who pretty much invented the TE position.

In 33 years as a head coach, Shula only had 2 losing seasons, won 3 championships and led his team to 3 more championship games. He also was the HC of the ONLY undefeated team in NFL history.

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