What Offer Would Change Your Mind on Trading Down???

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

@hatchetwound

 

I get that there’s evidence in the past a can’t miss prospect can miss, but Young literally checks every box. The Dion Jordan comparison isn’t a good, due to Jordan coming in as a tweener/smallish type body.  Young will come in the NFL a man and freak amongst guys in the NFL. He’s just different. 

 

Yeah I don't think Chase Young is anything at all like Dion Jordan. IMO Jordan had possible bust written all over him. His production was extremely mediocre in college, and his pass rush technique was basically nonexistent...he got by on 100% pure athleticism. He was a workout and combine warrior who was gifted athletically and was then overdrafted based on that. Not the first time it's happened. He also had some character issues, wasn't especially motivated, and immediately got into drugs and drinking when he got into the league and didn't take it seriously once he was drafted.

 

I see absolutely none of that in Chase Young outside of the athleticism. I think Young is actually an even better athlete than Jordan but he combines that with crazy production as well as excellent technique. From everything I've seen and read he's also very committed to being the best and is an extremely hard worker and focused. None of the "possible bust" boxes are checked for him like there were for Dion Jordan. PFF has him as their highest graded defensive prospect ever for a reason...and it isn't because he's just an athletic freak. 

 

Also, watch a cutup of a game of Dion Jordan in college and then one of Chase Young, back to back. Notice something? Yeah, Dion Jordan is mostly invisible. He doesn't stand out, for the most part. He's just a great athlete who will make a good play every so often but usually isn't really a big factor. Young pops out immediately. You see him doing something on almost every play. Getting pressure, a QB hit, getting a sack, making a TFL. He's getting doubled a ton, chipped a ton. And he's still a game wrecker. Jordan never was anything close to that. There are those guys who simply immediately stand out in film. Young is one of those guys. Same with dudes like Von Miller, Garrett, etc. 

 

IMO he's one of those guys you simply don't pass on, no matter what other holes you have (outside of QB if you need one and there's one there that you like). 

[hatchetwound]

10 hours ago, wit33 said:

@hatchetwound

 

I get that there’s evidence in the past a can’t miss prospect can miss, but Young literally checks every box. The Dion Jordan comparison isn’t good, due to Jordan coming in as a tweener.  Young will come in the NFL a man and freak amongst guys in the NFL. He’s just different. 

Thank you for your reply.  I don't follow college so I don't know who to best compare him to.  Over the past 10 years, here are the DLinemen drafted top 3 over the past 10 years

2019
(2) Nick Bosa

2018
None

2017
(3) Solomon Thomas

2016
(2) Joey Bosa

2015
(3) Dante Fowler

2014
(1) Jadeveon Clowney

2013
(2) Dion Jordan

2012
None

2011
(3) Marcell Dareus

2010
(2) Ndamukong Suh
(3) Gerald McCoy

2009
(3) Tyson Jackson

 

 

Out of that group, Suh is the only one that transforms a defense.  After that, I'd say the Bosa's are the next best (along with McCoy), as top tier rushers.  I was just wondering if we could get something that gets us close (see, the Vikings scenario), while also addressing other areas.

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, hatchetwound said:

Thank you for your reply.  I don't follow college so I don't know who to best compare him to.  Over the past 10 years, here are the DLinemen drafted top 3 over the past 10 years

2019
(2) Nick Bosa

2018
None

2017
(3) Solomon Thomas

2016
(2) Joey Bosa

2015
(3) Dante Fowler

2014
(1) Jadeveon Clowney

2013
(2) Dion Jordan

2012
None

2011
(3) Marcell Dareus

2010
(2) Ndamukong Suh
(3) Gerald McCoy

2009
(3) Tyson Jackson

 

 

Out of that group, Suh is the only one that transforms a defense.  After that, I'd say the Bosa's are the next best (along with McCoy), as top tier rushers.  I was just wondering if we could get something that gets us close (see, the Vikings scenario), while also addressing other areas.

 

You left out Garrett in 2017 at #1 overall. I think Garrett is (or was) on his way to elite category. He was 2nd team All-Pro his 2nd year and before deciding to use a helmet in place of some well constructed verbal insults I think he was on his way to 1st team All-Pro this season. 

 

That being said, your overall point is sound as far as most of those guys not necessarily being a force that completely transforms a defense. And here's where the "but" comes in.

 

But...honestly the last guy that I watched pre-draft who popped out to me the way Young does was Suh. Suh was a game wrecker. He was everywhere. He was getting pressure on every other down, getting TFLs, QB pressures and hits. He had to be game planned for and when you watched him he just stood out immediately. 

 

Chase Young is the same way when I watch him. He just stands out immediately because he is also a game wrecker. He has to be doubled, game planned for, chipped, and he still gets pressures and hits and sacks and TFLs all the time. You can't really watch and not notice him. Even if you're concentrating on a different player or just casually enjoying the game. 

 

That's why I think you simply can't pass on a guy like him. He's a game changer that has to be accounted for on every single play and could potentially transform a defense if he lives up to his potential. Sure, there's no way of knowing that he will, but there really aren't any "bust" boxes to be checked there, so I'd be really surprised if he didn't end up being a top DE in the league. 

 

IMO one guy like that can help out your defense more than 2 or 3 "good" players at other positions (secondary for example) because everything starts with the line. If they can consistently get pressure with 4 and there's at least 1 guy that the other team has to pay special attention to and double then that makes the secondary's job that much easier. They can drop more into coverage, have to cover for less time, they have more chances for INTs with hurried throws, etc. 

[hatchetwound]

If Young is transformative like Suh, then I agree.  No trade

[joeken24]

No need to overthink this thing. Chase Young is going to help your team now. You know this.

 

 

A trade down scenario is some Jedi mind **** to me.

 

Now which bady would you take to the Redskins' game?

[FrFan]

6 hours ago, joeken24 said:

Now which bady would you take to the Redskins' game?

Miami Dolphins: Tua Tagovailoa, QB, Alabama 
TRADE!!!

From talking to people in Miami, I've come to the conclusion that it makes far more sense for the Redskins to trade down than the Lions. Sure, they lose out on Chase Young, but picking Young was problematic anyway because that means they'll have four first-round picks on the defensive line, which would make re-signing everyone impossible. We saw this a couple of years ago when the Browns passed on Bradley Chubb in favor of Denzel Ward for the same reason. Young is a better prospect, but if the Redskins can trade down, I think they'd do it. Also, the Dolphins moving up to No. 3 would be nonsensical because another team can just leap over them up to No. 2.

I believe Tua Tagovailoa will be a top-three pick. The demand for quarterbacks is too high. The Dolphins, Chargers, Panthers and perhaps even the Buccaneers, Jaguars and Colts are teams that could be interested in moving up for the Alabama prospect. Tagovailoa, of course, suffered a serious injury this past season, but he will reportedly throw before the NFL Draft, which is huge. It sounds as though Tagovaila's injury wasn't as bad as it was initially suspected to be, which is great news. It'll also mean that some team will be more eager to trade up for him, so I expect either the Redskins or Lions to move down.

The Dolphins are currently slotted ahead of all the other teams I mentioned above, but they seem to love Tagovailoa, so they could trade up to make sure that another team doesn't leap over them.

 

The deal is ridiculous a 1st and a second to move up from 5th to 2nd to get your franchise QB.

[Redd]

I would be done with this franchise if they made that trade.  If you move down from Chase you better get a kings ransom instead of trading 1st round picks and a second.  Miss me with that.

[mistertim]

50 minutes ago, Redd said:

I would be done with this franchise if they made that trade.  If you move down from Chase you better get a kings ransom instead of trading 1st round picks and a second.  Miss me with that.

 

That mock looked like something put together by a drunk 10 year old. What picks did we get from Miami for #2 overall?? If you looked at the whole 1st round, Miami still had both of their other 1st rounders. What the hell did we get out of that trade? A ham sandwich and a milkshake? 

 

I think that's one of those mocks where the guy just needs to get something out there and wants people to look at it. 

[hatchetwound]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

That mock looked like something put together by a drunk 10 year old. What picks did we get from Miami for #2 overall?? If you looked at the whole 1st round, Miami still had both of their other 1st rounders. What the hell did we get out of that trade? A ham sandwich and a milkshake? 

 

I think that's one of those mocks where the guy just needs to get something out there and wants people to look at it. 

Maybe it was a 2021 first, which honestly will probably be more valulable than either of Miami's other two firsts

[Skinsinparadise]

I agree with Finlay here.  I serioulsy doubt we got an RG3 type offer.  And for me an RG3 type offer is the only type i'd entertain. 

 

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/face-it-redskins-fans-there-wont-be-another-rg3-trade-offer

Face it Redskins fans, there won't be another RG3 trade offer

 

The Redskins hold the second overall pick in the 2020 NFL Draft, and as time inches closer to the first round in late April, the selection will gain increasing importance. 

Fans seem split between taking Ohio State defensive end Chase Young and the prospect of trading the pick. It's time, however, for a wake-up call for the trade crowd. 

Nothing, repeat nothing, will come close to the RG3 trade.

In 2012, the Redskins sent three first-round picks and a second-round pick to the Rams to move up four spots and get the opportunity to select Robert Griffin III. It was an exorbitant price. Wild. And for about 12 games it seemed like Washington made the right move. A knee injury ended Griffin's incredible rookie year, and from there, things fell apart. 

The point isn't how the Griffin trade ended, it's that it happened, and that some Redskins fans have an expectation that a similar offer could come in for the No. 2 pick this year. It's not going to happen. 

The only trade that compares to the Redskins move to get RG3 actually came from the Rams in 2016. Los Angeles moved up to the first overall pick to select quarterback Jared Goff, and to do so, the Rams gave up a boatload of picks: two first-round picks, two second-round picks, and two third-round picks. It's well documented how many of those selections helped the Titans propel to the AFC Championship game this past season.

Still, that trade doesn't compare for a few reasons. The most obvious? The Rams gave up two first-round picks, not three like Washington did in 2012. Also, the Rams had to move up from the 15th overall pick to the No. 1 selection, a move of 14 spots. Washington only moved up four spots in 2012 to get from six to two and take RG3. 

Regardless, the NFL has learned from both trades. 

The last true blockbuster draft day trade came in 2018, when the Bears moved up one spot from the third pick to the second pick to take North Carolina quarterback Mitch Trubisky. To make the move, Chicago sent four picks to San Francisco, including their first, third and fourth-round picks in 2018 and another third-round pick in 2019. Granted, the move was just to inch up one spot, but the haul was nowhere close to the RG3 trade. 

In short, the Redskins overpaid in 2012. The NFL knows it. That type of offer won't come again.

Looking at 2020, it's entirely possible some teams might get desperate in a hunt to get Alabama QB Tua Tagovailoa. Most would think the easy trade is to the third spot where Detroit sits, but even if it's to the second spot where the Redskins are, don't expect three first-round picks and a second to get offered. 

Yes, Miami holds three first-round picks this year, and Miami might be desperate for Tua. History suggests, however, that the Godfather offer for RG3 won't happen again. 

If it does, listen, but keep in mind lightning rarely strikes twice. 

[Skinsinparadise]

On 2/5/2020 at 7:04 AM, FrFan said:

Miami Dolphins: Tua Tagovailoa, QB, Alabama 
TRADE!!!

From talking to people in Miami, I've come to the conclusion that it makes far more sense for the Redskins to trade down than the Lions. Sure, they lose out on Chase Young, but picking Young was problematic anyway because that means they'll have four first-round picks on the defensive line, which would make re-signing everyone impossible.

 

 

...The deal is ridiculous a 1st and a second to move up from 5th to 2nd to get your franchise QB.

 

The way Jonathan Allen and Payne are paying -- good but IMO not great, I don't think either dude is breaking the bank where they are getting a monster contract.  Heck actually I'd sign them early like the Redskins did with Ionnaidis.   Look at FA this year if anything there is a glut of D lineman on the market. 

 

I don't get their logic of you don't want too many ist round picks on the d line.  Ironically that's exactly what SF did.   But playing along with their logic, these D lineman didn't all come in the same year save Settle and Payne.  So it would staggered.    Chase Young would be debuting in Jonathan Allen's 4th year. 

[Renegade7]

@Skinsinparadise I was jus coming to post that.

 

It's fair to say we grossly overpaid, but we were desperate for a QB in an age where its not realistic to win a ring or stabilize a franchise without one.

 

To say it wont happen this draft is not to say it will never happen again, that's an assumption made in the article.

 

And this is why I picked taking less, because it doesn't need to be the same or more for me.  Getting a second rounder or extra first in this draft is enough for me, especially if it involves Detroit and we still get Young.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

@Skinsinparadise I was jus coming to post that.

 

It's fair to say we grossly overpaid, but we were desperate for a QB in an age where its not realistic to win a ring or stabilize a franchise without one.

 

To say it wont happen this draft is not to say it will never happen again, that's an assumption made in the article.

 

And this is why I picked taking less, because it doesn't need to be the same or more for me.  Getting a second rounder or extra first in this draft is enough for me, especially if it involves Detroit and we still get Young.

 

I don't think anyone here would be against trading down to the third pick and still getting Young.   That's not really a debate IMO.   That would be liking saying would you rather have Young and an extra pick or just Young?  So I am not presuming anyone is debating that. 

 

I agree that the offer would be less.  That's why I said earlier on the subject, I might entertain an RG3 type of haul -- (for me it would have to be though with the Dolphins first two first rounders as part of it) but I don't think we are getting it and if I were the Dolphins I wouldn't offer it.

 

As for getting a 2nd rounder doing it for you.   Would you trade down to pick #5 for the Dolphins 2nd rounder? 

[Renegade7]

24 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for getting a 2nd rounder doing it for you.   Would you trade down to pick #5 for the Dolphins 2nd rounder? 

 

Absolutely not, if for any reason the draft value charts for Jimmy Johnson model and Rich Hill model show wed be losing points in that trade scenario.  That's why I never proposed it.  If a trade scenario works or doesnt work in both models, that should be good indication of whether or not to even propose it.

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Absolutely not, if for any reason the draft value charts for Jimmy Johnson model and Rich Hill model show wed be losing points in that trade scenario.  That's why I never proposed it.  If a trade scenario works or doesnt work in both models, that should be good indication of whether or not to even propose it.

 

OK, I just asked because your post said an extra first or extra 2 would do it so was wondering if that means on its own from a team, or from Detroit, or you want both a first and 2nd.

 

Or said differently, you might have already said what you'd want but I am too lazy to go through the whole thread -- what would be the minimum that would make you pull the trigger?

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK, I just asked because your post said an extra first or extra 2 would do it so was wondering if that means on its own from a team, or from Detroit, or you want both a first and 2nd.

 

I can dig it, I've brought up a couple times my support for a three team trade that got us Young still, but it is 14 pages now.

 

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Or said differently, you might have already said what you'd want but I am too lazy to go through the whole thread -- what would be the minimum that would make you pull the trigger?

 

Want to say the lowest ive proposed was a swap with Detroit that got us a second rounder.  For me it's either a haul worth losing Young, or the bare minimum to make sure we still get him.  I'm not in the "trade down at all costs" wagon, if that even exists here.

[hatchetwound]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Face it Redskins fans, there won't be another RG3 trade offer

 

The Redskins hold the second overall pick in the 2020 NFL Draft, and as time inches closer to the first round in late April, the selection will gain increasing importance. 

Fans seem split between taking Ohio State defensive end Chase Young and the prospect of trading the pick. It's time, however, for a wake-up call for the trade crowd. 

Nothing, repeat nothing, will come close to the RG3 trade.

In 2012, the Redskins sent three first-round picks and a second-round pick to the Rams to move up four spots and get the opportunity to select Robert Griffin III. It was an exorbitant price.

....

Still, that trade doesn't compare for a few reasons. The most obvious? The Rams gave up two first-round picks, not three like Washington did in 2012. Also, the Rams had to move up from the 15th overall pick to the No. 1 selection, a move of 14 spots. Washington only moved up four spots in 2012 to get from six to two and take RG3. 

Regardless, the NFL has learned from both trades. 

The last true blockbuster draft day trade came in 2018, when the Bears moved up one spot from the third pick to the second pick to take North Carolina quarterback Mitch Trubisky. To make the move, Chicago sent four picks to San Francisco, including their first, third and fourth-round picks in 2018 and another third-round pick in 2019. Granted, the move was just to inch up one spot, but the haul was nowhere close to the RG3 trade. 

In short, the Redskins overpaid in 2012. The NFL knows it. That type of offer won't come again.

So Basically, we were the only ones this century stupid enough to make that boneheaded trade.  The rest of the league learned from Hershal Walker and the value of draft picks

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

I am absolutely in favor of trading down.

Or at least seriously considering all offers.

With or without a great Chase Young, this team needs numerous players at numerous positions.

If we pick Young, we've just made or strongest unit even stronger.

That's a luxury, not a need. We can't win a lot of games, with just a great defensive line. There's glaring needs in numerous other places.

And on top of that, we have no 2nd round pick. So, basically we won't be able to address our REAL needs until the 3rd round.

That does not sound like a good outcome.

Trade down, you still get a 1st rounder, maybe 2, and an impact player or 2, and maybe even a 2nd rounder, and then you're able to address the numerous needs and set us up to be competitive contenders. And we would still have an excellent DL and an excellent DC.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, hatchetwound said:

So Basically, we were the only ones this century stupid enough to make that boneheaded trade.  The rest of the league learned from Hershal Walker and the value of draft picks

 

 

The irony of Bruce (just about everyone said he was in charge of making the trades, including coming up with what's fair capital, both when Shanny was here and when he left) was he was stingy as for keeping star players or signing them in FA with some exceptions.  Yet, as for trades he won't be denied and was willing to overpay. 

 

We lost really every trade:  Jammal Brown, McNabb, Alex Smith, RG3, Clinton-Dix. 

9 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

And on top of that, we have no 2nd round pick. So, basically we won't be able to address our REAL needs until the 3rd round.

That does not sound like a good outcome.

 

 

We've gotten used to that mindset some because that's how Bruce typically operated -- using the draft for need and FA with a rare exception wasn't much to write home about.

 

But with the cap room we got and a new Sheriff in town, we have plenty of an opportunity to address multiple needs in FA.

[Malapropismic Depository]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But with the cap room we got and a new Sheriff in town, we have plenty of an opportunity to address multiple needs in FA.

 

Scherff and/or Flowers may follow Callahan to Cleveland out of loyalty to him, which digs us even deeper in the hole.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Scherff and/or Flowers may follow Callahan to Cleveland out of loyalty to him, which digs us even deeper in the hole.

 

From what some beat guys said Rivera is targeting keeping both.  They can always franchise Scherff worst case.  But there are other fish in the sea for the O line especially at guard if that went down.

 

We could have cap room in the range of 60 million plus to mess with.    It's a good FA crop this year. 

[mistertim]

31 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

I am absolutely in favor of trading down.

Or at least seriously considering all offers.

With or without a great Chase Young, this team needs numerous players at numerous positions.

If we pick Young, we've just made or strongest unit even stronger.

That's a luxury, not a need. We can't win a lot of games, with just a great defensive line. There's glaring needs in numerous other places.

And on top of that, we have no 2nd round pick. So, basically we won't be able to address our REAL needs until the 3rd round.

That does not sound like a good outcome.

Trade down, you still get a 1st rounder, maybe 2, and an impact player or 2, and maybe even a 2nd rounder, and then you're able to address the numerous needs and set us up to be competitive contenders. And we would still have an excellent DL and an excellent DC.

 

We don't have an excellent DL. We have a good one. And you don't draft for need, especially at #2 overall and especially when you have a once in a decade talent like Young sitting there at such an important position. 

 

All of the arguments you just made were made about SF when it came to taking Bosa. "Why do it? They already have a good DL and have spent 1st rounders there. Trade back and get a bunch of picks to fill their holes". 

 

Don't underestimate the impact one elite play maker can have on a unit. Trading down and getting a couple of decent players to fill holes isn't going to have the same impact. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

We don't have an excellent DL. We have a good one. And you don't draft for need, especially at #2 overall and especially when you have a once in a decade talent like Young sitting there at such an important position. 

 

I think to me this is the operative point.  This defense was historically bad on third down.  Not just bad.  But awful.  At the very least, I think it's tough to argue that a defense that can't bring it home on third down is nothing great.

 

Our D line if anything seems to have underachieved.  We can't bring pressure when it counts (3rd down) or stop the run.  Yes I bet coaching has something to do with it.  But I don't think the 49ers model is a bad comp to our situation.  The 49ers elevated from 23rd in 2018 to 2nd best last season.  Bosa was a big part of it and they added other pieces.  I think if we add Young and some other pieces it likely has a ripple effect that will help others reach their potential.

 

In our current configuration, I don't even know if our D line isn't dead last in the division.  We kind of sleep on the Giants but like us they've been drafting d lineman high.  Dexter Lawrence for them turned into the beast that many of us are expecting Allen and Payne to ultimately turn into.  BJ Hill and Tomlinson are also good tackles. Golden had more sacks than any of our pass rushers.   

 

I loved the Allen pick, and I like Payne so I am not down on either one but neither one of them are sniffing elite status.    Maybe someone like Young will help them get there. 

=

 

[Malapropismic Depository]

18 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

We don't have an excellent DL. We have a good one.

 

With our current players, if you add JDR at DC, and a year experience for Sweat, I think it has the potential to be excellent, if properly used.

[mistertim]

18 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

With our current players, if you add JDR at DC, and a year experience for Sweat, I think it has the potential to be excellent, if properly used.

 

And I think if you add an elite playmaker to that mix, a guy who has to be accounted for at all times and is a disruptive force, it's going to make that unit much better than just having a better DC and a couple of decent players at other positions if you trade back.

 

That's exactly what happened with SF and Bosa. I don't think it's a coincidence that the highest sack total Arik Armstead ever had in 4 years was 3 then suddenly jumped up to 10 in 2019, and the fact that Bosa was now on that line as well.