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53 minutes ago, method man said:

The Montez Sweat was a great trade. If the rumors of the fake heart condition were not out there, he would have been a top 15 pick. Teams generally are not able to trade a 2nd in the current year and a 2nd in the following year for a top 15 pick

The reason why the Skins were able to do that, was because he was not a top 15 pick.

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Heck both the Packers and the 49ers both had losing records last year.  Now one team will be in the Super Bowl.  The difference is minut in the NFL from winning and losing.  We just got to get in the tournament. 

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8 hours ago, dyst said:

The reason why the Skins were able to do that, was because he was not a top 15 pick.

 

You base that opinion on what exactly?  Sweat has good size & speed & was coming on strong at the end of last season.  Used correctly & with other good talent like Young there is no reason to believe that he cannot consistently be a double digit sack player.  That is the role he should be serving - not going back in coverage.  To me that certainly warrants being a 1st rd pick & possibly even a top 15 pick.

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I'm not sure we're in great position... 

 

We are on the right track...

 

We have significant concerns in the following positions (not in any order):

 

1. Offensive Line - Will Williams return? Will Penn retire? Will we re-sign Flowers? What will happen with Scherff (tag?)? Is Roullier good enough to continue being the center? Is Moses capable of stepping up under a new scheme?

 

2. Quarterback - Haskins is completely unknown. He is also the only (healthy) quarterback on the roster.

 

3. Running back - Everyone but Peterson is either a FA, injury prone, or below replacement level.

 

4. Wide Receiver - Need to see if one of the rookies (Harmon) can step up and be a number 2. 

 

5. Tight End - Hentges, Wilson and Sprinkle are the current group. Not completely opposed to this group, but I'd have more confidence with someone a bit more... proven. I have a feeling they're going to try to roll with Davis or Reed (if he doesn't retire) for another season unless they manage to snag a Thaddeus Moss/Cole Kmet type in the draft.

 

6. Outside linebacker - SDH is likely our best option, but he struggled to see the field last year when we had poor LB play. He is definitely better in coverage than others. Reuben Foster is the outlier, but he has a significant injury history and cannot be counted on. 

 

7. Cornerback - Dunbar plays in roughly 3/4 of games/season. Depth is the biggest concern. Moreau is capable depth for the outside spot, but you'd like someone better to start opposite Dunbar. Moreland developed some in the slot. Johnson showed a little promise. But this group is of concern.

 

8. MIKE - Holcomb will likely do better in this role than the role he played last year. But when it comes to Nickel situations he struggled juggling coverage/run reads. I do like him for the 4-3 MIKE role, though. 

 

9. Free Safety - Apke has shown next to nothing and Nicholson is a risk.

 

Some of this will be alleviated by coaching. Some will have players from the draft enter the fray to shore things up. Some will get FA reinforcements. But these are a lot of holes to fill. 

 

It's definitely possible with the right culture that things improve tenfold and some of these guys turn around and this team becomes good overnight. I believe culture solves a lot of issues. But I think it's important to understand that this team has a lot of question marks, too. 

 

I will say this: The Skins will be better next season. I have little doubt about it.

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22 hours ago, hatchetwound said:

I agree!  It just stinks that we no longer have our 2nd rounder.  Thanks a lot, Bruce!  😕 

We got Sweat out of that, you really mad about that? Just cant please people sometimes. 

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37 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I'm not sure we're in great position... 

 

We are on the right track...

 

We have significant concerns in the following positions (not in any order):

 

 

I am with you. Realistically every team can go position by position and list off concerns. It's all relative. Both the concerns and non concerns. I really do believe Coaching makes a huge difference, and we upgraded there, but again that's relative. 

 

That being said, some of this can be hidden through coaching and other talented players making plays...especially on the defensive side. Between the DL, Collins, Dunbar, Foster(Hopefully)...should be able to hide some deficiencies. Of course you want to upgrade some of those positions, but you can say that about every position until you're fielding the all pro team. 

 

I believe the OL and DL are the two places where you really can't fake it. And our DL should be really good. The OL, if everyone is brought back, including TW, could be decent. 

 

But yeh, i think we have the potential to be in a great position soon...but potential isn't always realized as we well know. 

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Just now, dballer said:

 

 

That being said, some of this can be hidden through coaching and other talented players making plays...especially on the defensive side. Between the DL, Collins, Dunbar, Foster(Hopefully)...should be able to hide some deficiencies. Of course you want to upgrade some of those positions, but you can say that about every position until you're fielding the all pro team. 

 

 

Agreed. From the bottom of the post you just quoted:

 



Some of this will be alleviated by coaching. Some will have players from the draft enter the fray to shore things up. Some will get FA reinforcements. But these are a lot of holes to fill. 

 

It's definitely possible with the right culture that things improve tenfold and some of these guys turn around and this team becomes good overnight. I believe culture solves a lot of issues. But I think it's important to understand that this team has a lot of question marks, too. 

 

I will say this: The Skins will be better next season. I have little doubt about it.

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I truly believe they are going to get Williams back. And mend the relationship. I also think getting a year off to get his body right is going to work. Where his anxiety level is at I have no idea.  But massive changes within the organization, teammate relationships should go a long way.  I think they will tag Scherff and work on strengthening that relationship.    They should re-sign Flowers but where do you put him if Williams returns.  I think he wants to be a starter.

 

I would like to bring in Marcus Mariota to compete with Haskins.  I don't think we would pay a lot for him.  It could definitely be a competition, nothing given, and I think a change of scenery would help Mariota.  Mariota has had flashes during his career but he does the head scratching things.  But at the right price, his experience and those flashes who knows.

 

Still think we are going to pick up a CB in FA and fill a couple of holes. Probably do what we usually do with the one obligatory splash and probably will be every D focused in the upcoming season.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

I truly believe they are going to get Williams back. And mend the relationship. I also think getting a year off to get his body right is going to work. Where his anxiety level is at I have no idea.  But massive changes within the organization, teammate relationships should go a long way.  I think they will tag Scherff and work on strengthening that relationship.    They should re-sign Flowers but where do you put him if Williams returns.  I think he wants to be a starter.

 

 

 

 

 

Good thing Flowers plays LG :)

 

 

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So, about Norman. Did the Skins NOT play him to his strengths? Seems he was playing off with a cushion vs at the line jamming receivers using his size like he did with the Panthers. Can he be rahab'd and brought back into form. I would guess he'd have to renegotiate *some* or could he be worth the risk. Did we try to fit him in a scheme that he was not suited for AGAIN???

 

When he left the Panthers, it wasn't Rivera that rescinded the FT. Wonder if RR and Norman have talked...

 

(ps) It was safety play where he got burnt on the TD's I remember. Communication problems..did he REALLY fall off the cliff or was it Manusky

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46 minutes ago, RawRebel said:

We got Sweat out of that, you really mad about that? Just cant please people sometimes. 

 

That's no consolation when we would've been essentially sitting on two first rounders this year because of how poorly we finished.  

 

Not that we'd want to, but right now we couldn't get two seconds back for him.  Which means the team gambled on his potential.  Whether he lives up to it or not, remains to be seen.  

Edited by megared
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2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Good thing Flowers plays LG :)

 

 

Sorry I thought they moved him over that was Penn right. Hey can't remember all the names.  Thanks for the correction.

@KDawg what do you think about Mariota. Reasonably priced.  Definitely needs to prove something.  I mean he could conceptually do what Tannehill did.  He does have flashes. Maybe a change in coaching?

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2 minutes ago, megared said:

 

That's no consolation when we would've been essentially sitting on two first rounders this year because of how poorly we finished.  

 

Not that we'd want to, but right now we couldn't get two seconds back for him.  Which means the team gambled on his potential to get their guy.  Whether he lives up to it or not, remains to be seen.  

Sweat had the tools to be a #1 prospect and fell to us. Again, did we use him right or try to get him to drop into cover at the NFL level right off. Yes, he didn't contain sometimes but you can't ignore his 4.4 speed. Learn technique and no RB will beat him to the sideline. He reminds me of Manley...I'm OK with using that 2nd then vs now. Even with Position # difference. Sweat COULD be a Monster

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7 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

 

@KDawg what do you think about Mariota. Reasonably priced.  Definitely needs to prove something.  I mean he could conceptually do what Tannehill did.  He does have flashes. Maybe a change in coaching?

 

I think Mariota is what he is. 

 

I'm okay with him as a fringe starter/backup for Haskins, but it largely depends on how the new staff really feels about Haskins. If they feel he's the starter but will need to earn it, Mariota is a guy I'd be okay with. If they think we need a starter, though, and don't really expect Haskins to compete/win, then Mariota isn't that guy.

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57 minutes ago, RawRebel said:

We got Sweat out of that, you really mad about that? Just cant please people sometimes. 

I get it, and I said earlier that I do like Sweat.   Just a little buyers remorse wen I see that #34 no longer belongs to us.

 

Full disclosure, I'm all about maximizing draft assets.  I approach the draft like a shot gun... the bigger the gauge, the more you're going to hit.  Last year I had the wacky idea of punting most of our picks to get more picks at a higher value THIS year since this draft is so deep.  That's where I'm coming from, I saw this draft as the one to load up on.

 

 

Side thought on the Sweat thing:  Was this Allens hail mary to keep the job?  If you think aobut it, a secure GM would look at the 2018 season, and saw that when our franchise QB went down, our team faceplanted.   It was reasonable to predict that we would have a bad season this year (Admittedly, I was not one of them), so why not protect our assets as they would likely be high in each round.  Instead, he trades our 2nd for Sweat, gets the fans excited and engaged, and we faceplant anyway.    Maybie Bruicfer knew that this was a make it or break it year for him, and THATS why he made the move.

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3 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Sweat had the tools to be a #1 prospect and fell to us. Again, did we use him right or try to get him to drop into cover at the NFL level right off. Yes, he didn't contain sometimes but you can't ignore his 4.4 speed. Learn technique and no RB will beat him to the sideline. He reminds me of Manley...I'm OK with using that 2nd then vs now. Even with Position # difference. Sweat COULD be a Monster

 

You're talking about measurables.  The combine's over.  Having 4.4 speed doesn't mean anything if you're easily absorbed by blocks, or don't have the strength/technique to beat your guy.  I'm not saying he won't develop these things, but suffice it to say, he was not good at winning 1-1 matchups.  Throughout the season, he was mostly at, or near the bottom of the league of PBWR (rate pass rusher beats blocker within 2.5 secs).  Most of the plays he made as a pass rusher were on plays where he was unblocked. 

 

He largely avoided criticism, because of how poorly the defense played as a whole.  

 

It's not some crazy idea to question the wisdom of trading picks possibly representing two future starters away, for one guy.  I doubt if the front office knew that pick would be the #34 for the 2020 pick, that they would've made that trade.  Their arrogance in thinking they were close, probably meant they thought they were going to be giving up the ~#50 slot.

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3 minutes ago, megared said:

 

You're talking about measurables.  The combine's over.  Having 4.4 speed doesn't mean anything if you're easily absorbed by blocks, or don't have the strength/technique to beat your guy.  I'm not saying he won't develop these things, but suffice it to say, he was not good at winning 1-1 matchups.  Throughout the season, he was mostly at, or near the bottom of the league of PBWR (rate pass rusher beats blocker within 2.5 secs).  Most of the plays he made as a pass rusher were on plays where he was unblocked. 

 

He largely avoided criticism, because of how poorly the defense played as a whole.  

 

It's not some crazy idea to question the wisdom of trading picks possibly representing two future starters away, for one guy.  I doubt if the front office knew that pick would be the #34 for the 2020 pick, that they would've made that trade.  Their arrogance in thinking they were close, probably meant they thought they were going to be giving up the ~#50 slot.

 

Except, here's the rub...

 

Which of the first rounders do you remove from the equation if you're re-doing it?

 

I don't think it's Sweat.

 

*ducks the impending swarm*

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1 hour ago, KDawg said:

I'm not sure we're in great position... 

 

We are on the right track...

 

We have significant concerns in the following positions (not in any order):

 

1. Offensive Line - Will Williams return? Will Penn retire? Will we re-sign Flowers? What will happen with Scherff (tag?)? Is Roullier good enough to continue being the center? Is Moses capable of stepping up under a new scheme?

 

2. Quarterback - Haskins is completely unknown. He is also the only (healthy) quarterback on the roster.

 

3. Running back - Everyone but Peterson is either a FA, injury prone, or below replacement level.

 

4. Wide Receiver - Need to see if one of the rookies (Harmon) can step up and be a number 2. 

 

5. Tight End - Hentges, Wilson and Sprinkle are the current group. Not completely opposed to this group, but I'd have more confidence with someone a bit more... proven. I have a feeling they're going to try to roll with Davis or Reed (if he doesn't retire) for another season unless they manage to snag a Thaddeus Moss/Cole Kmet type in the draft.

 

6. Outside linebacker - SDH is likely our best option, but he struggled to see the field last year when we had poor LB play. He is definitely better in coverage than others. Reuben Foster is the outlier, but he has a significant injury history and cannot be counted on. 

 

7. Cornerback - Dunbar plays in roughly 3/4 of games/season. Depth is the biggest concern. Moreau is capable depth for the outside spot, but you'd like someone better to start opposite Dunbar. Moreland developed some in the slot. Johnson showed a little promise. But this group is of concern.

 

8. MIKE - Holcomb will likely do better in this role than the role he played last year. But when it comes to Nickel situations he struggled juggling coverage/run reads. I do like him for the 4-3 MIKE role, though. 

 

9. Free Safety - Apke has shown next to nothing and Nicholson is a risk.

 

Some of this will be alleviated by coaching. Some will have players from the draft enter the fray to shore things up. Some will get FA reinforcements. But these are a lot of holes to fill. 

 

It's definitely possible with the right culture that things improve tenfold and some of these guys turn around and this team becomes good overnight. I believe culture solves a lot of issues. But I think it's important to understand that this team has a lot of question marks, too. 

 

I will say this: The Skins will be better next season. I have little doubt about it.

So between draft and Free agency which we should have a lot we can spend in we need like 8 players:

1 Backup Qb

1 RB

1 WR

1 TE

2 O-Lineman

1 CB

1 Safety

 

So in draft we should be able to get Chase Young plus a RB, 1 O-Loneman and backup QB at the very least. That would leave Free agency for WR, TE, O-Line, CB and Safety. Out of those we could spend big money on 2 and medium money on 3 and still have plenty of cap space after. I really dont see it hard to make a huge turn around around in 1 year. Expecially in our division. 

 

So how about if we signed:

 

WR: Robbie Anderson AND AJ Green

Neither would break the bank and we could get for the price of one Top paid WR. T Mac, Harmon, S. Sims, Green, Anderson would be a GREAT WR core.

 

TE: Eric Ebron AND Hunter Henry. Henry to be here long term and Ebron till we can draft a TE high next year. With Sprinkle, Ebron and Hunter we can roll out two TE sets that are not telling defenses that it's a run.

 

CB: Xavien Howard. One of the best CBs in the game. He will take a lot of money but we need him. 

 

Safety: Kevin Byard. One of the best Free Safeties in the game. And I think hes 26. 

 

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15 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Except, here's the rub...

 

Which of the first rounders do you remove from the equation if you're re-doing it?

 

I don't think it's Sweat.

 

*ducks the impending swarm*

 

I wasn't on board with Haskins only because it didn't make sense in the context of Alex Smith's status being uncertain (and his contract being unmovable).  Even if he busts, you could argue he was a reasonable pick at #15.  And he doesn't represent an opportunity cost to future years. 

 

To me, they were both similar in that neither one was ready to play from the get-go.  They both came on strong to end the season, and showed flashes of potential.  Beyond that, what we gave up to get Sweat (now knowing it was a 2020 #34 pick, in addition to 2019's #46) makes him the larger gamble.  As happy as I am to be in a position to draft Young, I'm equally disgusted that no one had the foresight to think about what the value of that 2nd round pick could be if we had a down year.  

 

If we go by a draft board, the #26 pick was worth ~700 points.  The #34 (~560) and #46 (~440) we gave up combined is 1000 points, which is equivalent to the #16 pick.  Maybe we thought we'd be somewhere in the #50 pick range which would've then represented us yielding 880 points (~#19 pick).   This doesn't take into account the value of future year picks (they'd probably be less at draft time).  

 

Hopefully we get back to going BPA.  At least we can look at this trade (whether Sweat works out or not) as the last terrible artifact of a horrible management structure.  Instead of taking Jay's equally terrible advice to draft Sweat at a place no one wanted him (#15), we ended up giving up similar value to get him in the back of the first.  And the majority of that collective value comes from this 2020 #34 pick.  

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Nothing like the off season when you don't have to play actual games. I suggest comparing with the 4 teams that are still playing before getting too optimistic about the 2020 season. The only way to revive this franchise is a new owner and a totally new identity from the top down.  Change the pieces in the puzzle all you want. Its still the same puzzle.

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26 minutes ago, megared said:

 

I wasn't on board with Haskins only because it didn't make sense in the context of Alex Smith's status being uncertain (and his contract being unmovable).  Even if he busts, you could argue he was a reasonable pick at #15.  And he doesn't represent an opportunity cost to future years. 

 

To me, they were both similar in that neither one was ready to play from the get-go.  They both came on strong to end the season, and showed flashes of potential.  Beyond that, what we gave up to get Sweat (now knowing it was a 2020 #34 pick, in addition to 2019's #46) makes him the larger gamble.  As happy as I am to be in a position to draft Young, I'm equally disgusted that no one had the foresight to think about what the value of that 2nd round pick could be if we had a down year.  

 

If we go by a draft board, the #26 pick was worth ~700 points.  The #34 (~560) and #46 (~440) we gave up combined is 1000 points, which is equivalent to the #16 pick.  Maybe we thought we'd be somewhere in the #50 pick range which would've then represented us yielding 880 points (~#19 pick).   This doesn't take into account the value of future year picks (they'd probably be less at draft time).  

 

Hopefully we get back to going BPA.  At least we can look at this trade (whether Sweat works out or not) as the last terrible artifact of a horrible management structure.  Instead of taking Jay's equally terrible advice to draft Sweat at a place no one wanted him (#15), we ended up giving up similar value to get him in the back of the first.  And the majority of that collective value comes from this 2020 #34 pick.  

 

Yes, I see all of that.

 

But that's not what I meant.

 

We don't trade a first rounder and we have one. #15. It sounds like Sweat was in play for that spot. So, we only draft one of Sweat and Haskins. Which do you draft? Choice being only between them...

 

I think I go Sweat and don't look back.

 

Which changes what we do at 2 this year, and likely makes Tua our quarterback.

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3 hours ago, dicksogj said:

You base that opinion on what exactly?  Sweat has good size & speed & was coming on strong at the end of last season.  Used correctly & with other good talent like Young there is no reason to believe that he cannot consistently be a double digit sack player.  That is the role he should be serving - not going back in coverage.  To me that certainly warrants being a 1st rd pick & possibly even a top 15 pick.

It's not an opinion, I was just stating a fact. Sweat was not a top 15 pick, he was pick 26. It is possible in a few years if he plays up to his potential we can then look back and say he should have gone top 15, which will be hindsight at that time but as it stands, he went 26 overall.

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