Hypothetical- Cincy throws a curveball and take Chase. Would you take Joe Burrow?

[volsmet]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If they keep Kerrigan, they can use him inside too.  There was a season where they did that some and he was decent pass rushing from the inside.   Giants back in the day had Osi on one side Strahan on the other.  Tuck would spell them and sometimes rush from the inside on passing downs where you had all three on the field at the same time.   They also had Kiwanuka who played different spots including OLB.

 

I think with Chase, you move him around like Denver does at times with Von Miller, the Bears with Mack where you don't know where he's going to be from play to play.   Right side.  Left side.  Inside.  Hand in the dirt.  Standing up.  Heck watching Ohio State, they had Chase do everything including even play some coverage.  As Urban has said he's a generational talent, well coached and NFL ready. 

 

Del Rio supposedly favors the 4-3 under front.  If so, its a five man front with the OLB typically close to the line of scrimmage, rushing.  You can have Chase playing some OLB perhaps stacked right with another edge rusher.  You can have Sweat and Chase coming at QBs from the same side.  Sky is the limit when you have multiple players who can rush. 

 

 

[lovemaskins]

51 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Apples to oranges.  An exceptional QB can impact a game more than a pass rusher.  For evidence, see what happened to Clemson vs OSU (Young) and then vs LSU (Burrow).  Switch the players and I'd bet anything that OSU would be national champs.  

I tend to disagree with that considering the giants Super Bowls over the Patriots and more recently Vaughn Miller singlehandedly destroying the Panthers.

Which is why I think San Fran wins this year. They get after you.
 

I get your point but elite pass rushers win championships too.  

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Apples to oranges.  An exceptional QB can impact a game more than a pass rusher.  For evidence, see what happened to Clemson vs OSU (Young) and then vs LSU (Burrow).  Switch the players and I'd bet anything that OSU would be national champs.  

An unknown QB transitioning to the NFL can also be the most detrimental thing to happen to a team if he's not up to the task and regardless of how good Burrow looks, or any QB who has ever made the leap, you just never know. No analytics nor stats nor defenses played against in college... nothing can accurately predict whether or not someone is capable until it happens. I'm still not 100% sold on Kyler Murray and if he doesn't pan out for AZ that means two straight years of QB disappointment means the team is back to being the bottom of the barrel again. You can survive if the player in question doesn't play such a premium position (even if DE is crucial).

 

KC and Mahomes thrives because KC had a pretty complete team when they moved up to draft him. They didn't have any glaring holes to fill so they were able to just ease Mahomes in when they felt ready. We're not in that boat and until we fix the rest of the offense we'll always just be setting rookie QBs up to fail.

[dicksogj]

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

No he didn't. Rosen started more games, but was less accurate, threw 11 TDs to 14 INTs, and did not improve throughout the year. Haskins, albeit in a small sample size, improved and showed flashes. Rosen's last 5 games were awful: 54.9 Comp%, 151 YPG 1 TD vs 3 INT. It's not even debatable.

 

Yep & you really can't judge Haskins until sometime next season.  I have no idea if he will pan out, but it is very unfair to simply judge him on this season.  At the beginning of the season he was being directed by a coach who didn't even want him & apparently neglected him.  He came in rusty & unprepared in his initial starts.  All of the while he was working with a less than stellar OL, no TEs worth much, rookie WRs & an injury plagued running corps.  Perhaps only Brady in his prime & Wilson could do anything with that setup.

 

Give him an offseason to work with someone who is motivated to improve him,  add perhaps T. Williams, at least a legit TE, WRs w/ another season under their belt & perhaps some other improvements (as well as solid D to assist them) & it could be a very different story.  This idea of constantly drafting QBs until they get it right is a joke.  The Cards are the exception & who wants to emulate that sorry franchise anyhow.  Again - give Haskins every chance to succeed next season.  If he falls way short then plan on drafting a QB with 1st pick in 2021 - i am sure that there will be more than enough of them to address this need.

[volsmet]

25 minutes ago, lovemaskins said:

I tend to disagree with that considering the giants Super Bowls over the Patriots and more recently Vaughn Miller singlehandedly destroying the Panthers.

Which is why I think San Fran wins this year. They get after you.
 

I get your point but elite pass rushers win championships too.  

Elite pass rushers can change individual games, but the elite pass rushers you noted had a lot of years on dreadful teams too. Great QBs are very rarely leading teams that are abysmal. Von Miller hasn’t led his team anywhere since Peyton left & those Giants teams were both fortunate to even get into the playoffs. That said, once you get into a one & done, the freaks on defense cause more cautious game planning by the opposition & more hesitant play from QBs. All championship teams have great players, you just need fewer of them if the QB is truly elite.

 

 

8 minutes ago, dicksogj said:

 

This idea of constantly drafting QBs until they get it right is a joke. 

Why? Cheap QBs allow you to pay proven commodities in FA.

[dicksogj]

3 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Elite pass rushers can change individual games, but the elite pass rushers you noted had a lot of years on dreadful teams too. Great QBs are very rarely leading teams that are abysmal. Von Miller hasn’t led his team anywhere since Peyton left & those Giants teams were both fortunate to even get into the playoffs. That said, once you get into a one & done, the freaks on defense cause more cautious game planning by the opposition & more hesitant play from QBs. All championship teams have great players, you just need fewer of them if the QB is truly elite.

 

 

Why? Cheap QBs allow you to pay proven commodities in FA.

 

Perhaps cheap salary wise but wasting high draft picks can be even more deadly.  Draft picks are probably the most valuable commodity for most NFL teams.  Also - always wasting picks on a QB just screws up your overall long term planning.  Again - roll w/ Haskins thru next season.  If it doesn't work draft a QB in 2021.  I can't believe that you want to roll the dice with Tua who has shown to be too much of a risk taker & already has injury issues.  Pass.

[volsmet]

5 minutes ago, dicksogj said:

 

Perhaps cheap salary wise but wasting high draft picks can be even more deadly.  Draft picks are probably the most valuable commodity for most NFL teams.  Also - always wasting picks on a QB just screws up your overall long term planning.  Again - roll w/ Haskins thru next season.  If it doesn't work draft a QB in 2021.  I can't believe that you want to roll the dice with Tua who has shown to be too much of a risk taker & already has injury issues.  Pass.

But with $ to burn, you can make the worst pick in nfl history, Trubisky over Watson/Mahomes, & still be a short fg from the conference championship game. 🤨 
 

Mitch Trubisky would be a better olb than qb. 

[dicksogj]

37 minutes ago, volsmet said:

But with $ to burn, you can make the worst pick in nfl history, Trubisky over Watson/Mahomes, & still be a short fg from the conference championship game. 🤨 
 

Mitch Trubisky would be a better olb than qb. 

 

Great.  So using that logic - even if Haskins falls short next season the Redskins could at least be competitive & on the rt path if their D excels & they have at least some semblance of an offense.  They can then grab a QB in the 2021 draft.  The only cap issue w/ QB for them is A. Smith & that will come off the books w/i the next few years.

[PartyPosse]

2 minutes ago, dicksogj said:

 

Great.  So using that logic - even if Haskins falls short next season the Redskins could at least be competitive & on the rt path if their D excels & they have at least some semblance of an offense.  They can then grab a QB in the 2021 draft.  The only cap issue w/ QB for them is A. Smith & that will come off the books w/i the next few years.

After this upcoming season he's gone. If he can be healthy this year than i wouldn't be surprised if we could trade him for a conditional late round pick rather than cut him, Maybe even retain 50% of his 2021 cap (which will pretty much be the same as his dead cap hit) to sweeten the pot for other teams. By then we'll have a good idea what DH is capable of and if we need to draft another QB. 

[volsmet]

55 minutes ago, dicksogj said:

 

Great.  So using that logic - even if Haskins falls short next season the Redskins could at least be competitive & on the rt path if their D excels & they have at least some semblance of an offense.  They can then grab a QB in the 2021 draft.  The only cap issue w/ QB for them is A. Smith & that will come off the books w/i the next few years.

Absolutely. But if I’m the Bears I’d still trade anyone on my roster for Watson. The grades on Tua & Haskins determine what you want to do here, but philosophically ... competent cheap QB play is probably the most valuable attainable commodity in the nfl...... the cheap stud QB is easiest path to a title.  

[volsmet]

If available, I’d probably never draft anything other than an elite QB prospect if one was there when I picked. And I’d probably never keep that Qb beyond his rookie contract. 
 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

[KillBill26]

I think Joe Brady going to Carolina will make the Panthers very aggressive as far as a draft trade goes.  They will want a new QB.  New coach, new hot shot offensive mind, and Rivera has a relationship with the GM.   We might be offered a haul we can't refuse.  I wouldn't get too tied to chase yet.

[mistertim]

22 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

I think Joe Brady going to Carolina will make the Panthers very aggressive as far as a draft trade goes.  They will want a new QB.  New coach, new hot shot offensive mind, and Rivera has a relationship with the GM.   We might be offered a haul we can't refuse.  I wouldn't get too tied to chase yet.

 

#7 to #2 overall is a pretty big leap. We went from #6 to #2 in 2012 and it cost us two arms, a leg, and half a torso. I'd find it pretty hard to believe that a new regime would come in and make that sort of crazy splash for a QB coming off of a huge injury. That's Rhule putting a ton on the line in his very first draft. I wouldn't want to go all the way down to 7 anyway because that would mean Simmons and Okudah are likely both off the board and on a trade down I'd still want to be in a position to get one of those guys. You'd need to give me a serious haul for me to consider that...like, even bigger than the RG3 trade. If I'm not going to be in a position to get Young, Simmons, or Okudah then I'm extremely unlikely to trade down because IMO those three are head and shoulders above the next tier of guys. 

[volsmet]

1 hour ago, KillBill26 said:

I think Joe Brady going to Carolina will make the Panthers very aggressive as far as a draft trade goes.  They will want a new QB.  New coach, new hot shot offensive mind, and Rivera has a relationship with the GM.   We might be offered a haul we can't refuse.  I wouldn't get too tied to chase yet.

Tua running the wild Brady would look nice. 

[volsmet]

13 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

#7 to #2 overall is a pretty big leap. We went from #6 to #2 in 2012 and it cost us two arms, a leg, and half a torso. I'd find it pretty hard to believe that a new regime would come in and make that sort of crazy splash for a QB coming off of a huge injury. That's Rhule putting a ton on the line in his very first draft. I wouldn't want to go all the way down to 7 anyway because that would mean Simmons and Okudah are likely both off the board and on a trade down I'd still want to be in a position to get one of those guys. You'd need to give me a serious haul for me to consider that...like, even bigger than the RG3 trade. If I'm not going to be in a position to get Young, Simmons, or Okudah then I'm extremely unlikely to trade down because IMO those three are head and shoulders above the next tier of guys. 

Trade back, grab Thomas in round 1, Isaiah Wilson in round 2, K.J. Hamler in 3 - get Scherff & Flowers signed up, and we are set with extra draft ammo heading into 2021.

McLaurin  (TE) Thomas Flowers Chase Scherff Wilson/Moses   Hamler  Harmon

                                              Guice Haskins

 

A massive Oline to protect our young QB & speed for days at WR.

 

🧐

[KillBill26]

22 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

#7 to #2 overall is a pretty big leap. We went from #6 to #2 in 2012 and it cost us two arms, a leg, and half a torso. I'd find it pretty hard to believe that a new regime would come in and make that sort of crazy splash for a QB coming off of a huge injury. That's Rhule putting a ton on the line in his very first draft. I wouldn't want to go all the way down to 7 anyway because that would mean Simmons and Okudah are likely both off the board and on a trade down I'd still want to be in a position to get one of those guys. You'd need to give me a serious haul for me to consider that...like, even bigger than the RG3 trade. If I'm not going to be in a position to get Young, Simmons, or Okudah then I'm extremely unlikely to trade down because IMO those three are head and shoulders above the next tier of guys. 

I agree with you on the drop off in talent.  I'm not saying I'm hoping they trade back, I'm saying they might be offered a package they can't turn down.  Bc where i disagree with you is that rhule won't do it bc it's his first year. Moving forward with Kyle Allen can't be very tempting, and neither is dealing with an aging prima donna in cam.  Although I do think their better bet could be to target Herbert at 5, and give up less of a haul in turn.  Would be a lot more palatable and they still get their young QB of the future.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, KillBill26 said:

I think Joe Brady going to Carolina will make the Panthers very aggressive as far as a draft trade goes.  They will want a new QB.  New coach, new hot shot offensive mind, and Rivera has a relationship with the GM.   We might be offered a haul we can't refuse.  I wouldn't get too tied to chase yet.

 

I'd wonder if they'd like someone like Jacob Eason where Brady thinks he can mold the talent into the system like what was done with Burrow.  Eason is raw but oozing with talent.  

[KillBill26]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'd wonder if they'd like someone like Jacob Eason where Brady thinks he can mold the talent into the system like what was done with Burrow.  Eason is raw but oozing with talent.  

True, or maybe a Jordan love or Fromm.  Plug another hole at 7 and see what they can do with a 2nd day guy.

[HTTRDynasty]

 

 

 

 

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

I understand the view of taking Burrow. He’s the hot tamale, the king with the swing. An Unbelievable year. But I think you bag a haul of picks, and you roll with DH. It comes down to, do you believe in Haskins? I think the kid showed mettle, poise, and the ability to improve in almost every facet of his game over 7 weeks.
 

For me his arrow is pointing straight up and sky high.  Are there plenty of questions that remain, yes, but he showed me top end QB production over two games. After really starting from absolute 0. Can he put it all together? I give him the chance and everything he needs to be successful.
 

And I look to grab from Simmons, Jeudy, Okudah and more ballers from the other picks...

[Destino]

11 hours ago, volsmet said:

Elite pass rushers can change individual games, but the elite pass rushers you noted had a lot of years on dreadful teams too. Great QBs are very rarely leading teams that are abysmal. Von Miller hasn’t led his team anywhere since Peyton left

I agree with your point overall, that pass rushers do not improve teams nearly as much as QBs do.  I just want to point out that Manning was terrible that final year in Denver when they won a superbowl.  Not bad, but terrible.  Dead last in the league in Rating.  He's not the reason they won anything.

[Burgold]

After that performance, the question does become more interesting. I think you listen to offers for both Burrows and Haskins. If you are offered a first for Haskins I think you take Burrow. If you are offered 3 firsts and change for Burrow, I think you stay with Haskins.

[KDawg]

11 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

intermediate outside the hash data

 

Ironically, this is also an area where Lamar Jackson struggles.

 

And do you know who doesn't? Dwayne Haskins. Dude has his shortcomings, but he throws the out routes like a man possessed.

4 hours ago, Destino said:

I agree with your point overall, that pass rushers do not improve teams nearly as much as QBs do.  I just want to point out that Manning was terrible that final year in Denver when they won a superbowl.  Not bad, but terrible.  Dead last in the league in Rating.  He's not the reason they won anything.

 

You missed the biggest thing Manning gives you. Leadership and intelligence.

 

Manning gave that team the confidence that they could do anything based on his leadership and preparation. Those are qualities that are overlooked in quarterbacks, but might matter more than any of their physical skills. 

[dicksogj]

A lot of feedback here makes it appear as if the Redskins only issues are at QB & on offense.  Do fans forget how horrible the Skins D has been for the most part over the last 5-10 seasons?  Adding Young alone doesn't change everything, but when it is combined with a new, stellar D coordinator & potential big improvements for players like Sweat, Payne & Allen - well this could have a huge impact on the D (no guarantees I realize but also no sure things at QB).

 

It as if some folks believe that if you switch out the QB all of your problems will be solved & any QB being drafted high this draft is a lock (which certainly isn't the case for Tua).  This is where I really feel good about the new regime since I believe that  Allen & Co likely think like some folks on this bd & are way too focused on the next big splash at QB.  Oh well - should be fun to watch how this unfolds.