Hypothetical- Cincy throws a curveball and take Chase. Would you take Joe Burrow?

[LD0506]

Burrow played a helluva game against Clemson and cemented himself as a first pick prospect, hands down. Cincy needs that and it is unimaginable that they don't take him. 

 

We don't need him the way the Bengals do, and we'd have to make a very different decision about that pick. He represents incredible value, he could bring a huge treasure in picks in return for a trade, and tbh we need more than any one guy. 

 

What I wonder is, Chase being touted as a generational talent and consensus #2 yadda yadda, what trade offers might he bring? Less than Burrow? Probably, but every year we see teams fall in lust with players and do dumb ****, do you even answer the phone?

[ThomasRoane]

After seeing him thrive vs Steele, Saban, and Venables I do whatever it takes to get Burrow.  Aside from Mahomes, he's the best prospect to come out in five years.  Hell, maybe 10!

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, ThomasRoane said:

After seeing him thrive vs Steele, Saban, and Venables I do whatever it takes to get Burrow.  Aside from Mahomes, he's the best prospect to come out in five years.  Hell, maybe 10!

Vinny offered two firsts for an aging Ocho Cinco and Mike Brown refused. There is ZERO chance Mike Brown doesn’t draft Burrow. He’s the cheapest owner in football and he can get the most touted player in years to put butts in seats on a rookie deal. No chance he gives that up. None.

[Boss_Hogg]

Thank the lord none of us on this board are actual football GMs.

 

All of these takes have made appreciate Bruce Allen. 

 

Got damn you for that

[volsmet]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Love Tua.  And he might be but durability issues (even pre his last injury) will dog him until proven otherwise.  The Dolphin interest is ironic as for them figuring out the situation.  Their concerns over Brees injury made them bypass him for Culpepper.  And Tua in some ways (and in some ways not) reminds me of Brees.  

Absolutely, I was the first to bring up durability concerns with Tua in the draft thread, I understand the concerns, but I don’t care about them, QBs just don’t lose careers to injury, the game is designed to protect them & treatments are extraordinary. Tua is a vastly better prospect than Burrow, imo, and he’s an easy choice at #2. It will also be an easy choice to trade him when he’s going to make $40 million....unless he’s a top 3 QB in the league, of course.

 

Burrow is a nice player - a player I hope goes #1. 
 

 

[volsmet]

10 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I dunno. Burrow beat many more highly ranked defenses than Tua did and he just shredded one of the best defenses in the nation for 463 yards and 5 TDs. Even if Tua were healthy I have a feeling Burrow might still go before him at this point. Burrow to Cincy is an absolute lock. Nobody even knows if Tua will ever be the same QB again. 

Burrow shredded Clemson while missing 4+ Easy touchdown passes. I’ve seen average QBs, in advanced schemes, shred everyone they faced. What LSU is doing, nobody has an answer for yet, but they’ll get figured out & the game will become far more difficult on the guy pulling the trigger. Right now I’d be more excited about betting on the next LSU QB to win the heisman than betting on Burrow to be a great nfl QB. There are 100 plays I’ve seen from Tua that I don’t think Burrow makes... watching the game last night I didn’t see anything Burrow did that Tua couldn’t do in his sleep... though, he may need more morphine than Favre just to sleep walk...🤔

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, volsmet said:

Absolutely, I was the first to bring up durability concerns with Tua in the draft thread, I understand the concerns, but I don’t care about them, QBs just don’t lose careers to injury, the game is designed to protect them & treatments are extraordinary. Tua is a vastly better prospect than Burrow, imo, and he’s an easy choice at #2. It will also be an easy choice to trade him when he’s going to make $40 million....unless he’s a top 3 QB in the league, of course.

 

Burrow is a nice player - a player I hope goes #1. 
 

 

 

Tua has sick deep field accuracy and sneaky mobility.  He's also a great dude.  One of my favorite college players of all time.  Heck if I was convinced he was 100% I'd take him myself at #2.  I know that's not going down so it will be an interesting ride in the next few months.

 

It's fun to be in the driver's seat for a change versus wondering who is going to drop to pick #14, etc.  This is going to be fun.  I love Chase Young, I think I said first on the draft thread months back that i wouldn't trade down if I could pick him.  I still lean that way but if someone gives me a crazy haul, I might be interested.  It would have to be a trade with Miami for my taste because i'd want at least two first rounders this year as the launch point.  I might do it for two first rounders (if its their 2 higher round ones) and a 2nd.  I doubt Miami does it though.  They have enough ammunition to push for Lawerence in 2021. 

 

 

[volsmet]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Tua has sick deep field accuracy and sneaky mobility.  He's also a great dude.  One of my favorite college players of all time.  Heck if I was convinced he was 100% I'd take him myself at #2.  I know that's not going down so it will be an interesting ride in the next few months.

 

It's fun to be in the driver's seat for a change versus wondering who is going to drop to pick #14, etc.  This is going to be fun.  I love Chase Young, I think I said first on the draft thread months back that i wouldn't trade down if I could pick him.  I still lean that way but if someone gives me a crazy haul, I might be interested.  It would have to be a trade with Miami for my taste because i'd want at least two first rounders this year as the launch point.  I might do it for two first rounders (if its their 2 higher round ones) and a 2nd.  I doubt Miami does it though.  They have enough ammunition to push for Lawerence in 2021. 

 

 

I love Chase as well, I’ve been a fan since charlatan recruiting analysts tried to convince the world that he was a lesser prospect than his DeMatha teammate Shane Simmons. But, a DE is easier to plan for, we have seen Von Miller & Khalil Mack disappear for months at a time ... months. Young is a better prospect than either, imo, but I’m taking my shot at the next Mahomes/Watson/etc & I like QBs less than anyone in the world does. Cheap QBs on the other hand...

 

We could debate who here was first to want to go to 2nd base with Chase, but you were well ahead of me on Tua — your boy is pretty close to an all in prospect for me. 

Tua

 

[zCommander]

58 minutes ago, Boss_Hogg said:

Thank the lord none of us on this board are actual football GMs.

 

All of these takes have made appreciate Bruce Allen. 

 

Got damn you for that

 

How do you know I would not make a good GM! I have ES and other GM's don't . Bruce would have been smarter if he had an ES account. Think about that. 

 

 

[onedrop]

45 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Absolutely, I was the first to bring up durability concerns with Tua in the draft thread, I understand the concerns, but I don’t care about them, QBs just don’t lose careers to injury, the game is designed to protect them & treatments are extraordinary. Tua is a vastly better prospect than Burrow, imo, and he’s an easy choice at #2. It will also be an easy choice to trade him when he’s going to make $40 million....unless he’s a top 3 QB in the league, of course.

 

Burrow is a nice player - a player I hope goes #1. 
 

 

tell that to joe theismann, or andrew luck or maybe even alex smith.

 

i get what you are saying but it has, does and will happen again.

[volsmet]

14 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

How do you know I would not make a good GM! I have ES and other GM's don't . Bruce would have been smarter if he had an ES account. Think about that. 

 

 

Trivia:

 

How many teams have ever gone winless in a division that was won with a 9-7 record. 

3 minutes ago, onedrop said:

tell that to joe theismann, or andrew luck or maybe even alex smith.

 

i get what you are saying but it has, does and will happen again.

If I respond to this instinctively I’ll get reported. So, I’ll wait for my initial reaction to pass & return in a few to explain what makes that post so ridiculous.

 

 

[volsmet]

Ok, @onedrop - you referenced 3 QBs, one of which was drafted in 1974, & two of whom played over 10 years....thus not losing their careers to injury. If Tua’s legs fall off after 10 years healthy in Washington, I doubt anyone would look back at taking him as a mistake. Well, anyone not on the ES. 

[Skinsinparadise]

52 minutes ago, volsmet said:

I love Chase as well, I’ve been a fan since charlatan recruiting analysts tried to convince the world that he was a lesser prospect than his DeMatha teammate Shane Simmons. But, a DE is easier to plan for, we have seen Von Miller & Khalil Mack disappear for months at a time ... months. Young is a better prospect than either, imo, but I’m taking my shot at the next Mahomes/Watson/etc & I like QBs less than anyone in the world does. Cheap QBs on the other hand...

 

We could debate who here was first to want to go to 2nd base with Chase, but you were well ahead of me on Tua — your boy is pretty close to an all in prospect for me. 

Tua

 

LOL, that definitely goes back before me on Chase.   Chase was my first prospect this previous college season where I watched multiple games fully glued into the specific player.  I have to really dive in before I feel like I got a handle on a player in my own amateur fashion.  I've only done if I recall 6 players or so thus far.  But I'll dive in soon like many of us did last year on the draft thread and start going to town watching players.   It helps kill some time during the long off season. 😀 

 

My instinct before watching Chase like that was he's a sure fire top 5 pick but nothing to move mountains over.  Then, I watched him rep after rep and I was blown away.  And I rarely get blown away by anyone.   I said right after that I am not trading down if we can get him. 

 

Part of it is during the last few off seasons, I've rewatched most of our games with coaches tape and focused a lot on D line play.  And I found that our edge guys are rarely disrupters.  They have their moments but can disappear for most of the game where they are handled.  Kerrigan and Preston and Anderson were rarely doubled.  Heck Tes sometimes could block Kerrigan.

 

Chase was in another orbit.  Granted against easier competition.   It wasn't the sacks that got me about him.  It was that he was almost a nonstop menace.  He can get into the QBs head.  The TE and RB would stay back to chip on him, etc.   It made me envision that with Sweat coming from the other direction.  That's a lot of speed coming off the edge.  Then we got the big dudes up the middle.  The dude just came off like a perfect fit.  I saw somewhere that Ionnaidis got doubled on almost 60% of his snaps last year.  Good luck doing that with Chase in the fold.  I think if you bring in Chase you might have the closest replica to the Giant SB teams defensively. 

 

As for Tua, Alabama I guess is my wheelhouse as for knowing college players.  I've seen them a few times live in the last two seasons.  I am toying with flying up to Baton Rouge later this year to see their matchup with LSU.  I am far from an expert on their roster but I know it better than most other colleges.  And Tua has been my fav players of theirs.  

[volsmet]

Chase can move inside on 3rd downs, he is, as you say, an absolute menace to an OCs sobriety.

 

[onedrop]

2 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Ok, @onedrop - you referenced 3 QBs, one of which was drafted in 1974, & two of whom played over 10 years....thus not losing their careers to injury. If Tua’s legs fall off after 10 years healthy in Washington, I doubt anyone would look back at taking him as a mistake. Well, anyone not on the ES. 

my point was that QB's do get knocked permanently out of the game due to injury. or, like our "beloved" rg3, have those careers drastically altered ending all question of what may have been.  personally i like tua over burrow myself but if i was making the choice his recent injury history would at the very least give pause and a serious discussion about long term viability would be in order.

 

FWIW i wasnt looking at it from the perspective of only the BEGINNING of a QB's career.

 

see, that wasnt too painful....

[volsmet]

1 minute ago, onedrop said:

my point was that QB's do get knocked permanently out of the game due to injury. or, like our "beloved" rg3, have those careers drastically altered ending all question of what may have been.  personally i like tua over burrow myself but if i was making the choice his recent injury history would at the very least give pause and a serious discussion about long term viability would be in order.

 

FWIW i wasnt looking at it from the perspective of only the BEGINNING of a QB's career.

 

see, that wasnt too painful....

Absolutely - there are outliers. 
 

No pain at all, I’m just too used to being sarcastic & talking 🤫 all day which I need to be more careful about here.
 

 

[onedrop]

12 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Absolutely - there are outliers. 
 

No pain at all, I’m just too used to being sarcastic & talking 🤫all day which I need to be more careful about here.
 

im right there with ya my friend.

[mistertim]

50 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Chase can move inside on 3rd downs, he is, as you say, an absolute menace to an OCs sobriety.

 

 

Yeah I remember seeing a few times where OSU stunted and twisted Chase inside and he went up against an OC...it was straight up unfair. The C might as well have just sat down and cried as soon as he snapped the ball; it probably would have been more effective as Chase could have accidentally tripped over him or something. He was absolutely zero match for Chase's speed and hands.

 

When it comes to Tua one of the things I'm worried about is not just how the injury may affect his mobility going forward (as well as potential for future similar injuries), but more importantly whether it will impact his throwing motion. QBs in general (well, good ones) use their core and hips to generate torque in their throws...that goes extra for guys like Tua who are really good at improvising when things break down and hence throw more on the run and/or from odd platforms when they don't have as much of a solid base. If his hip injury affects that it could affect part of what makes him so special. 

 

I still like him a bunch as a prospect, but I'd be really hesitant to pull the trigger on him top 5 without seeing him actually playing in a game again. But that's just me.

[Riggo#44]

On 1/10/2020 at 11:25 AM, SoCalSkins said:

How so?  Rosen had a superior rookie year in comparison. Rosen was a top 10 pick in the draft. Haskins was not.   Rivera has no allegiance to any player on this roster. Maybe a little to Josh Norman. That’s it.

 

No he didn't. Rosen started more games, but was less accurate, threw 11 TDs to 14 INTs, and did not improve throughout the year. Haskins, albeit in a small sample size, improved and showed flashes. Rosen's last 5 games were awful: 54.9 Comp%, 151 YPG 1 TD vs 3 INT. It's not even debatable.

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

Trivia:

 

How many teams have ever gone winless in a division that was won with a 9-7 record. 

 

Let me consult my fellow posters here on ES and get back to you...

 

Hey @volsmet do you know the answer to the above question? Some guy on ES is asking for an answer. Thanks!

 

 

[RandyHolt]

Should RR give any consideration to taking Tua?

 

Trade down a few spots #KingsRansom and LaRon Profit

 

The last time we had 2 young QBs it was a bit of a drama drama but we used and needed both, and FWIW both made the playoffs this year.  I just think pushing all in on drafting a single QB every 5 - 10 years, is just not enough.

 

Would Tua in a full season, likely be ranked ahead of Chase?

 

Two ah. Two ah.

[ThomasRoane]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

Chase can move inside on 3rd downs, he is, as you say, an absolute menace to an OCs sobriety.

 

 

Apples to oranges.  An exceptional QB can impact a game more than a pass rusher.  For evidence, see what happened to Clemson vs OSU (Young) and then vs LSU (Burrow).  Switch the players and I'd bet anything that OSU would be national champs.  

[volsmet]

22 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Let me consult my fellow posters here on ES and get back to you...

 

Hey @volsmet do you know the answer to the above question? Some guy on ES is asking for an answer. Thanks!

 

 

I have no idea what the answer is 🤔 the question come to mind when considering just how bad a job Bruce had done.

3 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Apples to oranges.  An exceptional QB can impact a game more than a pass rusher.  For evidence, see what happened to Clemson vs OSU (Young) and then vs LSU (Burrow).  Switch the players and I'd bet anything that OSU would be national champs.  

 

[volsmet]

6 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Apples to oranges.  An exceptional QB can impact a game more than a pass rusher.  For evidence, see what happened to Clemson vs OSU (Young) and then vs LSU (Burrow).  Switch the players and I'd bet anything that OSU would be national champs.  

Mr Tyrod, though you don’t realize it, you are in agreement with me, apples to twizzlers. 

If we are going apples to apples, Clemson’s offense struggled v zero elite pass rushers last night. 

3 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

After seeing him thrive vs Steele, Saban, and Venables I do whatever it takes to get Burrow.  Aside from Mahomes, he's the best prospect to come out in five years.  Hell, maybe 10!

Not to mention, 21/24 with 3 TDs v Grantham. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

Chase can move inside on 3rd downs, he is, as you say, an absolute menace to an OCs sobriety.

 

 

If they keep Kerrigan, they can use him inside too.  There was a season where they did that some and he was decent pass rushing from the inside.   Giants back in the day had Osi on one side Strahan on the other.  Tuck would spell them and sometimes rush from the inside on passing downs where you had all three on the field at the same time.   They also had Kiwanuka who played different spots including OLB.

 

I think with Chase, you move him around like Denver does at times with Von Miller, the Bears with Mack where you don't know where he's going to be from play to play.   Right side.  Left side.  Inside.  Hand in the dirt.  Standing up.  Heck watching Ohio State, they had Chase do everything including even play some coverage.  As Urban has said he's a generational talent, well coached and NFL ready. 

 

Del Rio supposedly favors the 4-3 under front.  If so, its a five man front with the OLB typically close to the line of scrimmage, rushing.  You can have Chase playing some OLB perhaps stacked right with another edge rusher.  You can have Sweat and Chase coming at QBs from the same side.  Sky is the limit when you have multiple players who can rush.