Voice_of_Reason

The Philosophy Thread: HC First, GM/FO First, or does it matter?

What is your Philosophy?  

86 members have voted

  1. 1. Which do you prefer

    • HC Centric Approach is better. Give the HC the power to choose the FO
    • GM/FO Centric Approach is better. The FO should be in place first and choose the coach
    • It Doesn't Matter


Recommended Posts

My apologies. Was looking at the standings and made a mistake. You can substitutes Eagles there. It's still GM with Roseman after the worse case of HC ever. I think Kelly is the classic example against HC.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The most important part is getting the right guys.  If you bring in the wrong GM-type, you get the wrong coach. If you got the wrong coach, any GM-type you bring in will probably be the wrong GM-type.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really good listen. It will be very interesting to heat what Ron says tomorrow. 
 

I think this is the most detail we’ve had on how things are actually working.  

 

I am going to go listen to it again, but I think I like everything I heard.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Ron’s presser to go along with Kyle’s above.  
 

He kept going back to collaboration, and Kyle and the scouts would give him and the coaches players to evaluate, and he and Kyle had met a bunch on every possible scenario, and will continue to do so.

Edited by Voice_of_Reason

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My motto: Whatever works, works.

 

Above all elevate leaders that have character absent ego that foster an organizational culture where people come together and willingly sacrifice self need to accomplish a unified goal.

 

A synergy of focus and intent towards that most satisfying and illusive of rewards-- winning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love our current structure. I hope that means Kyle Smith gets the GM job and they continue to work exactly like this.

 

It's a breath of fresh air. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I love our current structure. I hope that means Kyle Smith gets the GM job and they continue to work exactly like this.

 

It's a breath of fresh air. 

I kinda think they’re operating as if Kyle is the GM.  There’s no question based on what Kyke said he works for Ron. Specifically when he said something like “Ron took a step back and told me to run the draft the way I wanted to and make the changes I wanted to make.”  (Paraphrased). 
 

However, it’s also clear that Ron has delegated almost all of the traditional GM duties to Kyle.  And then they get in a room “behind closed doors” and make the decision “behind closed doors.” 
 

It sounds like the coaching staff and the scouting department are much more integrated. This is hugely important.

 

So if they keep working this way, I guess I don’t care if he gets the title or not. However if they have success, there’s no reason for him not to get the title since he’s doing the job.

 

I doubt the actual reporting structure changes, Kyle will probably continue to work for Ron technically. I know that bothers some.  But it doesn’t bother me.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

So if they keep working this way, I guess I don’t care if he gets the title or not. However if they have success, there’s no reason for him not to get the title since he’s doing the job.

 

I doubt the actual reporting structure changes, Kyle will probably continue to work for Ron technically. I know that bothers some.  But it doesn’t bother me.  

 

I want him to have the title for two reasons:

 

1) I don't want to try to integrate a new face into the structure.

2) I'm guessing the title comes with a raise. And Kyle deserves a raise for dealing with Bruce Allen for so long. 

 

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I want him to have the title for two reasons:

 

1) I don't want to try to integrate a new face into the structure.

2) I'm guessing the title comes with a raise. And Kyle deserves a raise for dealing with Bruce Allen for so long. 

 

:)

Agree on both counts. 

I’d add a 3rd and 4th:

 

3. he seems to be good at his job and deserves the title to go along with his responsibilities. 
 

4. somebody else could hire him and give him a GM title as a promotion.  If he’s already got the title, that can’t happen.  
 

But again, I doubt anything really fundamentally changes in the structure if he gets the title.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

@thesubmittedone

 

Listened to Keim's podcast today.  If he's correct, it doubles down on what has evolved as my #1 issue with Dan and that is his social life interlinked to his ownership.  

 

Keim talked about it in the context of Alex Smith. He said he doesn't think Dan would release Alex because they are friends and spend a lot of time together.  And then Keim goes Dan needs a pal in the building, someone to hang out with before the games, after the games, etc.  He has some players (don't know if he meant ex-players or current players) that he can hang with but its important to have a non-player to hang with. 

 

So yeah I am not sure i'd want here a GM that is beholden to Dan versus the coach.  Dan's own GM seems to transform to Dan's BFF and bad things tend to ensue from that. 😀

Edited by Skinsinparadise
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

@thesubmittedone

 

Listened to Keim's podcast today.  If he's correct, it doubles down on what has evolved as my #1 issue with Dan and that is his social life interlinked to his ownership.  

 

Keim talked about it in the context of Alex Smith. He said he doesn't think Dan would release Alex because they are friends and spend a lot of time together.  And then Keim goes Dan needs a pal in the building, someone to hang out with before the games, after the games, etc.  He has some players (don't know if he meant ex-players or current players) that he can hang with but its important to have a non-player to hang with. 

 

So yeah I am not sure i'd want here a GM that is beholden to Dan versus the coach.  Dan's own GM seems to transform to Dan's BFF and bad things tend to ensue from that. 😀

 

I got it. I know how to fix this.

 

We change job descriptions.

 

So... General Manager: Responsible for day to day activities within the organization as it pertains to relations with the ownership.

 

VP: In charge of roster management and overall personnel. 

 

Boom. Make Alex Smith the GM and keep Kyle Smith as the VP. 

 

Dan won't know what hit him.

Edited by KDawg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I got it. I know how to fix this.

 

We change job descriptions.

 

So... General Manager: Responsible for day to day activities within the organization as it pertains to relations with the ownership.

 

VP: In charge of roster management and overall personnel. 

 

Boom. Make Alex Smith the GM and keep Kyle Smith as the VP. 

 

Dan won't know what hit him.

 

LOL, yeah Keim even got into that part suggesting Alex would likely be offered a FO position next year -- assuming he can't play.  Keim is assuming he won't be able to play ultimately. 

 

But yeah Keim doubled down on the scuttlebutt that Dan needs a playmate or two at Redskins Park.  To your point on the FA thread, I do agree Alex is a good person for him to play with since he's a classy and smart guy.  Clearly, Dan's previous playmate Bruce Allen wasn't a good influence. 😀

 

From what I've read about Kyle, he's an all business, all football dude.  So I presume hanging out with Dan isn't his thing.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

LOL, yeah Keim even got into that part suggesting Alex would likely be offered a FO position next year -- assuming he can't play.  Keim is assuming he won't be able to play ultimately. 

 

But yeah Keim doubled down on the scuttlebutt that Dan needs a playmate or two at Redskins Park.  To your point on the FA thread, I do agree Alex is a good person for him to play with since he's a classy and smart guy.  Clearly, Dan's previous playmate Bruce Allen wasn't a good influence. 😀

 

From what I've read about Kyle, he's an all business, all football dude.  So I presume hanging out with Dan isn't his thing.  

 

I'm fine with Snyder wanting friends. I'm even more fine with that friend being Alex Smith. Chances are the dude doesn't play again.

 

His salary is worth him being in DC if he is able to keep Snyder busy. I'm not joking. That trade for Smith looks so much better if he keeps Snyder occupied. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I'm fine with Snyder wanting friends. I'm even more fine with that friend being Alex Smith. Chances are the dude doesn't play again.

 

His salary is worth him being in DC if he is able to keep Snyder busy. I'm not joking. That trade for Smith looks so much better if he keeps Snyder occupied. 

 

I am not when it seems to spill over into the team.  Him hanging with RG3 didn't (according to some beat guys) play well with players and the coaching staff.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to piece together that Vinny and Bruce's longevity was much tied to both being BFF's at the time with Dan.

 

And Keim in multiple segments has expressed that Larry Hess was Dan's pal and that factored into him taking his side of things -- spilling into the Trent dispute.  And Dan letting go of Hess was a big deal because Dan was so close to him. 

 

Yeah eventually Dan seems to be able to dislodge himself from his relationships but there tends to be at the very least collateral damage from some of those things.

 

Reading new-clippings about how Dan and Bruce would drink with each other almost every week night at Redskins Park, etc -- why wouldn't a dude like Bruce have longevity?  My drinking buddies from college are unlikely to fire me if I worked for them and especially if they were depending on nightly get togethers and we hung out a lot. 

 

Yeah I agree Alex is a good influence.  But personally I think the image painted about Dan needing a social life driven by the Redskins is a bit odd.  You don't read about Mara going to Vegas with Tiki Barber for example like you do with Dan and Portis, etc. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah I agree Alex is a good influence.  But personally I think the image painted about Dan needing a social life driven by the Redskins is a bit odd.  You don't read about Mara going to Vegas with Tiki Barber for example like you do with Dan and Portis, etc. 

 

We aren't going to change the man. Occupying him with Alex Smith is okay in my book. Hell, we should start a gofundme to pay Smith extra for performing this task.

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

We aren't going to change the man. Occupying him with Alex Smith is okay in my book. Hell, we should start a gofundme to pay Smith extra for performing this task.

 

I agree with all of this.  This being my point, he's not changing.  I am doubling down based on that point that I'd rather have a GM beholden to Rivera not Dan.   Alex is the best type of dude for him to hang with.  Some of his other past buddies weren't the best influencers IMO. 😀

Edited by Skinsinparadise

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

So yeah I am not sure i'd want here a GM that is beholden to Dan versus the coach.  Dan's own GM seems to transform to Dan's BFF and bad things tend to ensue from that. 😀


There are multiple ways to solve this without having to give up on having a legit GM. 

 

For instance, the Niners method would work with both the coach and GM equal in rank and with each having a final “check” from the other regarding their individual responsibilities that ties them to the hip. 
 

Either way, the problem with your position is that Dan can wreak havoc no matter what. What difference does it really make if he’s doing it through a coach as his BFF that he’s given ultimate power to or a GM? I get your thoughts that it’s harder to be a BFF with the coach due to factors involved with the coach’s job versus a GM, but if said coach is essentially GM wouldn’t that still mean he has plenty of opportunity to do that behind the scenes just the same? To me, the problem is with the “who” versus the “what”. It’s not about the positions themselves, it’s about who Dan has occupied them with. 


But what’s really sad to me is that we have to accept this at all because of who Dan is. What you’re saying is that “I’ll just have to accept the set up that has been proven to fail more often than the other set ups because of Dan”. That’s unfortunate. :( 
 

I’d just like to see, for once during Dan’s tenure, a legit GM with personnel chops be given that title with the power associated with it. Just once! If Dan messes that up then I’ll be more inclined to take your position on this, albeit sadly. But we haven’t seen this a single time! It’s mind blowing to think about! He’s either had someone totally unqualified (Vinny and Bruce) who were out of the NFL at the time of their hires and failed at their previous stints or had someone qualified (Scot) that was out of the NFL at the time due to his own personal problems (not to mention having someone like Bruce over the top of him). 


The fact remains that it’s important to have a qualified GM in that position with that power. There is no refuting this (and I know you’re someone who understand this fully, which is refreshing when contrasted to others who even dispute this or attempt to downplay it). The evidence is insurmountable to overcome. Even the teams that Dan and Ron mentioned as taking a “coach-centric” approach almost all have a GM with final say over personnel equal in rank to said Coach. They didn’t take it to mean the HC has ultimate power over everything. The only exceptions to this in terms of sustainable success are the Pats and Seahawks (and there is plenty of evidence to show that Schneider at GM does have that power in all but name). 

So it just sucks. It’s not something I can be satisfied about totally if that’s the case. It doesn’t make me feel better about it because, “welp, Dan is who he is so this is the best for him”. It just means we’re stuck settling for what has been proven to fail at a higher rate than the other methods, and there are plenty of reasons for that as you know very well. 😕 
 

With all that said, it doesn’t mean it won’t work and we won’t be the exception. It’s just too hard to ever be optimistic about Dan’s Redskins being an exception in the NFL. Every time we take that route with our hopes it gets smashed in our faces and we look back at it thinking how stupid we were for falling for it.
 

All I’m saying is for me to have unbridled optimism about this I’d need to see Kyle Smith or someone else qualified assuming that title and having final say over the roster as an equal to Ron. If that doesn’t happen, I’ll be skeptical this is going to work but I’ll damned sure be rooting for it to work every step of the way. I’m not going to hate Ron or anything for this, on the contrary, it’s my concern for him as a coach that has me saying these things. It was the same for Jay. I want them set up to succeed. I think Ron understood what’s best prior to getting hired here by his own words on the matter, I just hope he hasn’t been changed for the worst by Dan. And I want to see that in a formal way where it can’t be questioned. 

Edited by thesubmittedone
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

From what I've read about Kyle, he's an all business, all football dude.  So I presume hanging out with Dan isn't his thing.  


Wouldn’t this be an argument for my position? :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:


Wouldn’t this be an argument for my position? :) 

 

Maybe.  The question though is would Dan co-opt that somehow.   The difference to me with the coach is the coach can't hang with Dan at the stadium before the game and after and certainly not during it.  He's dealing with the team.  Weeknights -- game prep.  The GM on the other hand...

 

1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

Either way, the problem with your position is that Dan can wreak havoc no matter what.

 

Agree, the question to me is where would he inflict the least damage.

 

1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

I’d just like to see, for once during Dan’s tenure, a legit GM with personnel chops be given that title with the power associated with it. Just once! If Dan messes that up then I’ll be more inclined to take your position on this, albeit sadly.

 

I get this.  But I have no faith in him to work this part out well.  In some ways I am actually an optimist about Dan.  For example, I am not one of the people here who thinks we can never win with Dan.  I do think we can get lucky and win in spite of him.  But I've given up on the idea that he's going to change.  I can see him improving some.  And I even buy into the narrative that he doesn't interfere like he used to.  But I still think he can't help himself from interfering some.  I think he has no idea of what good culture means albeit at least he is spouting the right lines on that front in that press conference.  But my theory is his weird need to turn Redskins Park into his own private fraternity (hyperbole some from me to make a point) is never going away.

 

1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:



The fact remains that it’s important to have a qualified GM in that position with that power. There is no refuting this (and I know you’re someone who understand this fully, which is refreshing when contrasted to others who even dispute this or attempt to downplay it).

 

Yeah I agree that its the best model.  But I've started to wonder about that point as to Dan's weird need to make someone in that FO his BFF-ally and that ultimately leads to tension with the coaching staff. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.