The Official ES 2020 Free Agency Thread /Tracker... Kendall Fuller,OG Schweitzer, KP Louis, Thomas Davis, McKissic, TE Logan Thomas, OT Lucas, QB Kyle Allen (trd 5th Rd pick), RB P. Barber, LB Davis, Ronald Darby

[CapsSkins]

9 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

Add Watson, sign ARob

 

You likely cannot do both these things w/ our cap space.

[86 Snyder]

Just now, CapsSkins said:

 

You likely cannot do both these things w/ our cap space.

 

Sure you can.  Cash can neutralize the cap consequence fairly easily.  Im not sure how much cash little Danny actually has, perhaps hes broke, but its not hard to get around the cap constraints with a cash heavy approach.

[CapsSkins]

2 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

Sure you can.  Cash can neutralize the cap consequence fairly easily.  Im not sure how much cash little Danny actually has, perhaps hes broke, but its not hard to get around the cap constraints with a cash heavy approach.

 

Can you explain how this works? I'm not familiar.

[moondog]

5 hours ago, KDawg said:

I’m really not on the “spend for a RB and WR” train... but if we’re going to spend those positions would be a ridiculous upgrade with Jones and Robinson. I do worry about the cap portion with backloaded contracts and our guys coming due... and eventually a QB to pay...

 

I’d prefer a rookie back to be the bellcow. Robinson is CLOSE to being an acceptable spending to me if we get the extra 20M, but I’d rather snag two good ones instead of one high end one if that’s possible.

 

Reynolds and Erickson are two lower tier FAs that improve us in my opinion, too. Retooling the WR group would go a long way.

 

But, the priority is getting a good inside backer. I’d pass on almost everything else besides that. And I’d try to find a way to get the QB done as well. Those are the two areas I’d spend the money IF we’re going to spend it and IF we can get the cap right moving forward. 
 

I think we can sort out RB in FA, WR in draft and FA with lower cost guys, and FS in FA.

 

OL we can figure out in either place. Even lower round picks in some of those spots are going to be an upgrade for us. QB and ILB are the priority in my eyes.

I’m actually pretty surprised you’re down on Gibson as the bellcow. He has almost no mileage out of school and showed through almost 3/4 of the year he has no problem in that role and can carry the workload. AND he’s only going to grow as a 3 down back who already is pretty damn good catching passes out of the backfield. 
 

Turf toe was a kind of a freak thing but he still showed some good ability coming back from it. His vision immensely improved throughout the year and like I said about him as a receiver, he’ll only get better as a runner too. 

 

He looks like a threat to break a 10 yard run every time he gets an inch of room if not more. 
 

I love me some McKissic but he is very clearly not a good every down option backup. I hate Barber as the bellcow if Gibson isn’t available and didn’t like him to begin with but I can’t deny he was money all year in short yardage. 
 

To me, we need an upgrade to Barber that can step in as a temporary bellcow but I’m surprised you seem so aggressive at upgrading RB. That, to me, is probably the last position really needing an upgrade after Dline. 

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, moondog said:

I’m actually pretty surprised you’re down on Gibson as the bellcow. He has almost no mileage out of school and showed through almost 3/4 of the year he has no problem in that role and can carry the workload. AND he’s only going to grow as a 3 down back who already is pretty damn good catching passes out of the backfield. 
 

Turf toe was a kind of a freak thing but he still showed some good ability coming back from it. His vision immensely improved throughout the year and like I said about him as a receiver, he’ll only get better as a runner too. 

 

He looks like a threat to break a 10 yard run every time he gets an inch of room if not more. 
 

I love me some McKissic but he is very clearly not a good every down option backup. I hate Barber as the bellcow if Gibson isn’t available and didn’t like him to begin with but I can’t deny he was money all year in short yardage. 
 

To me, we need an upgrade to Barber that can step in as a temporary bellcow but I’m surprised you seem so aggressive at upgrading RB. That, to me, is probably the last position really needing an upgrade after Dline. 

I love Gibson. But I don’t believe he is a bellcow. I don’t think that’s how he should have ever been used. He is a weapon that can play receiver and back. He can run and catch. And he’s a playmaker. Get him his snaps. Get him on the field as a slot, as an H, as a tail, as a split wide guy. Use him in a variety of ways. Get that man the ball in space and watch him work.

 

Pounding him inside for 20 carries a game will likely bring positive results. Letting him be used as a weapon where he maximizes his reps and is more fresh? A problem for everyone.

 

In the post above I said I’d take care of RB in FA. That’s a mistype. I meant draft.

 

Javante Williams, Najee Harris, CJ Verdell, Jaret Patterson, Michael Carter are all guys I’d love to have. 
 

For a power back it’s Brian Robinson, Jr and Rhamondre Stevenson for me.

[Koolblue13]

I don't want to spend huge on a QB and I'd rather draft one, then trade for one. Build the team first.

[moondog]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I love Gibson. But I don’t believe he is a bellcow. I don’t think that’s how he should have ever been used. He is a weapon that can play receiver and back. He can run and catch. And he’s a playmaker. Get him his snaps. Get him on the field as a slot, as an H, as a tail, as a split wide guy. Use him in a variety of ways. Get that man the ball in space and watch him work.

 

Pounding him inside for 20 carries a game will likely bring positive results. Letting him be used as a weapon where he maximizes his reps and is more fresh? A problem for everyone.

 

In the post above I said I’d take care of RB in FA. That’s a mistype. I meant draft.

 

Javante Williams, Najee Harris, CJ Verdell, Jaret Patterson, Michael Carter are all guys I’d love to have. 
 

For a power back it’s Brian Robinson, Jr and Rhamondre Stevenson for me.

I don’t disagree or agree. I think Gibson has not only the potential but the likelihood to be truly special and just my opinion, I think you maximize that having him as THE guy in the backfield. 
 

Not discounting what you’re saying, but there are just so many other position groups that need attention I just don’t know how we can add to that group in the draft over others. The exception is maybe if Najee falls to us but other than that it becomes so much less worth it to me, especially in the draft. 
 

On a different note. It blows my mind people want to cut Collins. I fully comprehend him not being worth his salary. That is an absolute truth. However, he is still a very solid player. From what I understand, whether it’s a cap hit one year or the next, however you break it down we basically only make a few million overall by cutting him. In no world does are we better off over the next year or so with a few million in cap vs him on our defense. 
 

As you’ve said, even out of position he and Curl on the field are our best safety option. And then in nickel and sub packages you get creative. He’s not worth the contract but he’s worth far more than what we get from cutting him. Not to mention insurance against injuries. Dude can play and JDR can figure out how to maximize having playmakers like that - Collins just needs to be put in positions to best benefit the defense. In my mind, he’s not even a consideration to cut. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, moondog said:

I don’t disagree or agree. I think Gibson has not only the potential but the likelihood to be truly special and just my opinion, I think you maximize that having him as THE guy in the backfield. 
 

Not discounting what you’re saying, but there are just so many other position groups that need attention I just don’t know how we can add to that group in the draft over others. The exception is maybe if Najee falls to us but other than that it becomes so much less worth it to me, especially in the draft. 
 

On a different note. It blows my mind people want to cut Collins. I fully comprehend him not being worth his salary. That is an absolute truth. However, he is still a very solid player. From what I understand, whether it’s a cap hit one year or the next, however you break it down we basically only make a few million overall by cutting him. In no world does are we better off over the next year or so with a few million in cap vs him on our defense. 
 

As you’ve said, even out of position he and Curl on the field are our best safety option. And then in nickel and sub packages you get creative. He’s not worth the contract but he’s worth far more than what we get from cutting him. Not to mention insurance against injuries. Dude can play and JDR can figure out how to maximize having playmakers like that - Collins just needs to be put in positions to best benefit the defense. In my mind, he’s not even a consideration to cut. 

Najee would be my primary target. If not him we can get a very serviceable back that can carry a load in the 3-6 range. There are going to be some stud backs falling. I don’t think using a draft pick is tying up resources and I think getting a bellcow would do wonders for us AND Gibson’s health.

 

Having said that... your point about so many holes is exactly why I’m not comfortable trading massive resources for a QB.

 

Cutting Collins is silly. 
 

 

[86 Snyder]

1 hour ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Can you explain how this works? I'm not familiar.

 

The short answer is you give a huge signing bonus, which can be spread over up to 5 years, and backload the base salary.

 

Example: 5 yrs, $100M

 

A: $20M signing bonus with base salary of $16M each year. 

 

Cap hit is $20m each season.

 

 

B: $50M signing bonus with escalating salary of 2m, 5m, 10m, 13m, 20m

 

Year 1 cap hit: $12m

Year 2 cap hit: $15m

Year 3 cap hit: $20m

 

At this point the player has collected $67m of the total $100m contract.

 

The key is making the signing bonus, which is gauranteed and paid immediately, big enough to entice the player to sign.  Perhaps you can then make the last year or two voidable.  

 

So for that example, the 5 yr/100m contract is actually 3yr/67m with the last two years voidable.

 

Dangle a big enough carrot and cap hell never comes.  You gotta have the cash though and its debateable whether or not little danny does.

[CapsSkins]

2 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

The short answer is you give a huge signing bonus, which can be spread over up to 5 years, and backload the base salary.

 

Example: 5 yrs, $100M

 

A: $20M signing bonus with base salary of $16M each year. 

 

Cap hit is $20m each season.

 

 

B: $50M signing bonus with escalating salary of 2m, 5m, 10m, 13m, 20m

 

Year 1 cap hit: $12m

 

The key is making the signing bonus, which is gauranteed and paid immediately, big enough to entice the player to sign.  Perhaps you can then make the last year or two voidable.  

 

Dangle a big enough carrot and cap hell never comes.  You gotta have the cash though and its debateable whether or not little danny does.

 

How does voiding the contract affect dead cap for those back years? Bc isn't this just backloading the cap hit? In that case, you still have to pay the piper eventually.

[86 Snyder]

2 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

How does voiding the contract affect dead cap for those back years? Bc isn't this just backloading the cap hit? In that case, you still have to pay the piper eventually.

 

The remaining signing bonus would be dead cap.  If the player is still productive, you restructure.  If the player is no longer productive, you eat it.

 

Outside of a pandemic, the cap always goes up, so its not the end of the world to eat some dead cap.  I wouldnt advocate this strategy be used all the time, but it definitely makes sense at times.  Its how teams like New Orleans have survived.

 

Im saying Watson and Arob, two of the very best at their position in the league, are worth dumping the necessary picks and cash for.  We would be immediate Super Bowl contenders in my view.

 

I'd put the chances of us doing what it takes to get Watson at around .0003% though lol, so its a moot point.  

[CapsSkins]

3 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

The remaining signing bonus would be dead cap.  If the player is still productive, you restructure.  If the player is no longer productive, you eat it.

 

Outside of a pandemic, the cap always goes up, so its not the end of the world to eat some dead cap.  I wouldnt advocate this strategy be used all the time, but it definitely makes sense at times.  Its how teams like New Orleans have survived.

 

Im saying Watson and Arob, two of the very best at their position in the league, are worth dumping the necessary picks and cash for.  We would be immediate Super Bowl contenders in my view.

 

I'd put the chances of us doing what it takes to get Watson at around .0003% though lol, so its a moot point.  

 

But in your example, isn't that like $20M dead cap if you void after year 3? And if it's after year 4 instead, you're paying a $23M cap hit. 

 

Not saying you're wrong per se, I'm just trying to get the details down so I see what you're saying fully accurately.

[86 Snyder]

13 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

How does voiding the contract affect dead cap for those back years? Bc isn't this just backloading the cap hit? In that case, you still have to pay the piper eventually.

 

To take it to an extreme, just to illustrate the point...

 

Same deal 5 yr 100m, 30m signing bonus, last 4 years voidable.  Year 1 salary is $1m.  Year 1 cap hit is $7m.  Player collects $31m for one season, team voids contract after that year and eats $6m in dead cap for the next 4 years.

 

The real deal was $31m for one year.  The intent was always to void the last 4 years and eat the 6m per.  Player is happy.  He got 31m and is a free to sign another big deal.

 

If your owner is Bezos and all he wants to do is win and light money on fire, you can.

[CapsSkins]

4 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

To take it to an extreme, just to illustrate the point...

 

Same deal 5 yr 100m, 30m signing bonus, last 4 years voidable.  Year 1 salary is $1m.  Year 1 cap hit is $7m.  Player collects $31m for one season, team voids contract after that year and eats $6m in dead cap for the next 4 years.

 

The real deal was $31m for one year.  The intent was always to void the last 4 years and eat the 6m per.  Player is happy.  He got 31m and is a free to sign another big deal.

 

If your owner is Bezos and all he wants to do is win and light money on fire, you can.

 

Got it. Thanks!

[86 Snyder]

8 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Got it. Thanks!

 

Im now questioning myself whether the remaining dead cap wiuld accelarate into the next season after the contract voids.  Bottom line though, even if it does, its in a future year where the increased cap should be more than the dead cap charge.

 

Main point is, there are options.  

[KillBill26]

4 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Got it. Thanks!

Crunching numbers is a great book for explaining nfl contracts and the salary cap.  It came out a few years ago, and they have a new cba since then, but I'm pretty sure the info on there is still relevant with today's system.  There might be some minor tweaks.  The author of the book runs over the cap website.

[CapsSkins]

2 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

 

Im now questioning myself whether the remaining dead cap wiuld accelarate into the next season after the contract voids.  Bottom line though, even if it does, its in a future year where the increased cap should be more than the dead cap charge.

 

Main point is, there are options.  

 

I thought the prorated signing bonus money accelerated into the next year. So in your example it would mean a $24M dead cap penalty in year 2. Then I figured I was wrong. but now I think you're wrong again. LOL

[KillBill26]

2 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

I thought the prorated signing bonus money accelerated into the next year. So in your example it would mean a $24M dead cap penalty in year 2. Then I figured I was wrong. but now I think you're wrong again. LOL

I don't think I've read the whole exchange between you two, but when the prorated signing bonus is charged depends on when you cut/trade: if it's before June 1st, it's in the upcoming year.  After June 1st, any future hits are charged the following year.  Now you don't even have to wait until June 1st if youre trying to spread out the cap hit, you can make the cut right away and designate it as a june 1st cut.

[CapsSkins]

6 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

I don't think I've read the whole exchange between you two, but when the prorated signing bonus is charged depends on when you cut/trade: if it's before June 1st, it's in the upcoming year.  After June 1st, any future hits are charged the following year.  Now you don't even have to wait until June 1st if youre trying to spread out the cap hit, you can make the cut right away and designate it as a june 1st cut.

 

Ahh makes sense - thanks for the clarification!

[CommDownMan]

2 hours ago, KillBill26 said:

I don't think I've read the whole exchange between you two, but when the prorated signing bonus is charged depends on when you cut/trade: if it's before June 1st, it's in the upcoming year.  After June 1st, any future hits are charged the following year.  Now you don't even have to wait until June 1st if youre trying to spread out the cap hit, you can make the cut right away and designate it as a june 1st cut.

 

In the case explained having 30 mill SB over 5 years after 1 year 24 million remains.  6 over 4 if player remains.

 

If cut pre-June first you'd have all 24 mill hit as dead cap to immediate year.

 

If cut post-June 1st (or designated as a post June 1st) then 6 mill hits current year and 18 million dead cap applies to following year. 

 

You are right that at some point you need to pay the piper.  I think the general idea is when the window is open you worry a bit less about it.  By trading 3 1sts and some extras we'd have fewer low cost guys and quite a bit to pay coming up (that would also be harder to allow to walk with like likelihood of replacement in waiting).  We would have to hope we did a good job in the lower rounds and UDFA (which we have lately at least...). 

 

edit: Just FYI I'm agreeing with you KillBill, was just doing the math with the last example.

 

[CommDownMan]

Also, a trade for Watson, year 1 would be a 10 mill cap hit.  It then would go 35, 37, 32, 32 mill. 

 

Texans would be eating 21.6 million.   Their 2021 cap space is negative 18 mill current (based 176 mill I believe).

 

ARob at 4yr/80mill doing something like 20 mill SB, 5 mill/15/18/22 would give a year 1 10 mill hit. 

 

If you could manage that, 20 mill year one leaves room for other things.  55 mill year 2 would be a big jump for just 2 players, but that's about what I think it would look like to get both.

[NickyJ]

No thanks for Watson. Cool dude, but I don't want to blow everything we have on him after 1 feel good season. I love Rivera, I like where the team is going, but we were 7-9 and 1 Sudfeld away from missing the playoffs. We have too many holes to deal with before throwing tons of cash and draft picks at one player and calling our next 3 offseasons done.

[Rskins91]

12 hours ago, Redskins Reparations said:

Regarding Deshaun Watson...Amazing talent but do you really want a player who is going to the media and expressing his desire to be traded due to not being involved in the GM/Coach hiring process?  I believe Coach Rivera could reign him in but in my opinion it’s a very bad look for Watson.

1000%. Trade the farm. 
 

Also, it’s one thing to want to be involved. It’s another to get a promise that you’ll be consulted, and then have that promise broken. That’s the real kicker. Owner could have easily told him no, but instead he said yes and then broke the promise. 
 

That and Easterby sounds like a complete loon. 

[FootballZombie]

If you got a shot at D Wat you take it. 25 yrs old, elite QB. Many good senior QB Prospects coming out of college are around that age (J burrow is 24 I think)

 

You cant find a guy like that. Its nearly impossible to draft a guy like that. This dude can be your QB for the next 15 years, and he is built to do the things you'd want a modern NFL QB to do rather than being molded from past QBs.

 

And he would be on a deal that avg 29.5 Mil a year... for a QB... for 5 more years.

 

The cost is nearly irrelevant. If you can go out and secure this guy, he easily and by far becomes Off season QB option A.

 

 

[86 Snyder]

If anyone questions trading a fortune for Watson, would you do it for Mahomes?  Because theres a neglible difference between the two.  

 

Watson is elite elite.  Put him on KC and they dont skip a beat.  Its a damn shame seeing him get wasted in Houston and I hope he gets to go to a team where the deck isnt stacked against him.

 

Personally I think there's virtually no chance we gun for him.  Lets go get ARob though.  He is also elite elite.