OC - Scott Turner incoming

[Rex Tomb]

15 minutes ago, Panninho said:

Yeah I didn't get that impression at all. And as I said, I dont think Rivera would have just accepted it that way.

Agreed - I'm pretty sure Rivera would have put Haskins in his place if that were the case.  No more Camp Cupcake here.

4 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

The days of coddling players needs to end with Rivera. It starts with not coddling the QB who has a friendly personal relationship with the owner. This is how Shanahan was undermined. KOC is not worth the drama retaining him brings. 

So, you're in Rivera's head? You know he's coddling Haskins?  Is it possible that Rivera seems to know just how widely respected KOC is and he wants to make sure he gives him a shot at the job, while not just naming him OC (which would look like a Danny Boy move), and doesn't want to just clean house like he did with everyone else on the coaching staff.  You seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions. 

[skinny21]

As has been said, O’Connell built a rapport with Haskins and was able to get him comfortable in the pass game.    He moved away from the run, run, pass while still committing to the run when possible.  

 

I like the wrinkles O’Connell installed - using Sims in the run game (and his COD on routes), the qb keepers, etc. - as well as getting guys involved in the pass game and working on screens.

 

In the Cowboys game, I liked that O’Connell saw the pressure Keenum was under and called screen plays and ends rounds to try to slow the pass rush.  Didn’t like that they failed miserably... but I felt that was a personnel issue.   Ran a rollout to the left that worked.  Point being, he saw an issue and called plays to try to mitigate the issue, and that’s a nice change.  
 

Still can’t believe how rough we looked on offense when Dallas didn’t even have Byron Jones or Lawrence in the game.  Yikes.  
 

Anyway, if we’re able to shore up the oline, get guys like Guice and Love healthy, and get further development from our young qb and wrs... I have faith the O’Connell is smart enough to take advantage of that talent.  If he doesn’t, so be it, we’ll move on next year.  This year is a “get right” and learning year anyway, IMO.  

Edited January 1, 2020 by skinny21

[skinsfan212689]

13 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

KOC really helped Haskins grow when he took over play calling duties the last few games.   I think continuity is important for young QB's.  And Haskins seems to work well with him.  And all of us saw improvement with Haskins and something to build on.

 

Has Sean really cooled off or is it more about the D not being very productive this year and some problems on offense? Lots of points given up.  And on the offensive side Gurley has simply not been that good this year and they are paying him a lot of money.  They were 26th in the league in the run game.  You have to be able to establish the run and I did not see much of that from the Ram's this year.    And maybe because of that and the lack of rhythm i did not see it as a great year for Goff either.   Some are saying the O line play was not good. I don't know but I suspect McVay will fix it.  

 

I respect your opinion on this but I disagree on both points. 
 

First, McVay is the head coach not just the offensive coordinator so the team failure is on him. Also his offense wasn’t as good as it was the year before in my opinion the league had a lot more film on him to study hence the drop in offensive production. This definitely lead to some of the defensive struggles as they didn’t always have a lead to start. This year they were playing from behind more than before. 
 

Secondly, I do agree KOC and Haskins gain some sense of chemistry and that is really good but as I stated I’d more more inclined if there was a guy that could maximize the entire offense. That may very well be KOC but if RR has a guy he’s more sure of I’m all for it. 
 

HTTR

[SoCalSkins]

5 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

Agreed - I'm pretty sure Rivera would have put Haskins in his place if that were the case.  No more Camp Cupcake here.

So, you're in Rivera's head? You know he's coddling Haskins?  Is it possible that Rivera seems to know just how widely respected KOC is and he wants to make sure he gives him a shot at the job, while not just naming him OC (which would look like a Danny Boy move), and doesn't want to just clean house like he did with everyone else on the coaching staff.  You seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions. 

If the QB gets placated people will say it is more of the same and it’s different rules for Dan’s buddy. Putting him in his place involves not keeping KOC. Even if Rivera wants to keep him it’s a mistake. Perception quickly becomes reality. Can’t have the perception of Dan interference or special rules for Haskins. KOC has to go. Simple as that.

[Renegade7]

16 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

The days of coddling players needs to end with Rivera. It starts with not coddling the QB who has a friendly personal relationship with the owner. This is how Shanahan was undermined. KOC is not worth the drama retaining him brings. 

 

I don't think its'a about coddling, its about not giving him different offensive coordinators in the last three years of him playing football.  I can see bringing KOC back if antyhing just to keep that from affecting his development, then if KOC doesn't run away with it, get the best OC money can buy.

[Rex Tomb]

12 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

If the QB gets placated people will say it is more of the same and it’s different rules for Dan’s buddy. Putting him in his place involves not keeping KOC. Even if Rivera wants to keep him it’s a mistake. Perception quickly becomes reality. Can’t have the perception of Dan interference or special rules for Haskins. KOC has to go. Simple as that.

 

So, let me get this straight.  Kevin O'Connell has shown himself to be a very promising OC, is widely respected around the league, would get 5 or 6 offers within minutes of being let go, and you want to get rid of him simply because Haskins has openly stumped for his OC to be retained?  Not sure if I agree with that strategy.  I think you'd be letting someone very valuable to the organization go just to prove a point and hurting the organization in more than one way.    

Edited January 1, 2020 by Rex Tomb

[MartinC]

24 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

The days of coddling players needs to end with Rivera. It starts with not coddling the QB who has a friendly personal relationship with the owner. This is how Shanahan was undermined. KOC is not worth the drama retaining him brings. 

We disagree on what constitutes ‘coddling’, if ‘coddling’ is taking place and the ‘drama’ of retaining KOC exists in the heads of some fans.

 

if Rivera wants to retain him he will retain him. If he doesn’t he doesn’t.  I see no parallel with Shanahan - Dan Snyder is not the only person who needs to let go of the past.

[SoCalSkins]

5 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

 

So, let me get this straight.  Kevin O'Connell has shown himself to be a very promising OC, is widely respected around the league, would get 5 or 6 offers within minutes of being let go, and you want to get rid of him simply because Haskins has openly stumped for his OC to be retained?  Not sure if I agree with that strategy.  I think you'd be letting someone very valuable to the organization go just to prove a point.  

He has called 5 games. Let’s not anoint him anything. Dan’s qb buddy has basically demanded he be retained. If he is that will be viewed by many inside and outside of the organization as more of the same. Callahan is far more highly regarded as an o line coach than KOC is as an OC and they let him go without issue. Retaining KOC will undermine Rivera from day 1. You want to change culture? You put Dan’s buddies on the roster in their place. There are no special rules and it’s a new regime. That doesn’t happen with KOC on staff.

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by SoCalSkins

[skinsmania123]

9 minutes ago, skinsfan212689 said:

I respect your opinion on this but I disagree on both points. 

I appreciate that. There are posters that i agree with on many things and then the same posters I disconnect with on other things.  So its all cool.  That is what I like about this board.

 

9 minutes ago, skinsfan212689 said:

 

First, McVay is the head coach not just the offensive coordinator so the team failure is on him. Also his offense wasn’t as good as it was the year before in my opinion the league had a lot more film on him to study hence the drop in offensive production. This definitely lead to some of the defensive struggles as they didn’t always have a lead to start. This year they were playing from behind more than before. 

 

He is the HC and he has to fix it now. Last year it was all working fairly well because their D performed well.  But their D did not perform well this year and frankly that was on Wade Philips.  Then they went after Jalen Ramsey, hoping to making a run, and clean up the back end, but now, they just have to pay him...LOL!.   I don't think they took Ramsey because  Talib got injured, because they were struggling on the backend even before that.

 

 Between the poor O line play, which led to the paltry 86 run yards per game, and Goff being off, which really IMO shows how damn important good O line play is, it is on McVay to now fix it.  

 

 I think they are going to have a lot of turnover, meaning he is going to let some of these guys go, probably even Philips.

 

But I will say this.  They have a lot of players they need to pay that are on rookie deals.  Hope they have a great numbers person in house.   

 

9 minutes ago, skinsfan212689 said:

 

Secondly, I do agree KOC and Haskins gain some sense of chemistry and that is really good but as I stated I’d more more inclined if there was a guy that could maximize the entire offense. That may very well be KOC but if RR has a guy he’s more sure of I’m all for it. 
 

HTTR

Who would you suggest?  I agree if there is someone better who could continue to help Haskins grow and maximize potential I am all for it. 

[Rex Tomb]

2 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

He has called 5 games. Let’s not anoint him anything. Dan’s qb buddy has basically demanded he be retained. If he is that will be viewed by many inside and outside of the organization as more of the same. Callahan is far more highly regarded as an o line coach than KOC is as an OC and they let him go without issue. Retaining KOC will undermine Rivera from day 1. You want to change culture? You put Dan’s buddies on the roster in their place. There are no special rules and it’s a new regime. That doesn’t happen with KOC on staff.

 

Ahhh, I see what this is about.  Your agenda is showing.

[SoCalSkins]

4 minutes ago, MartinC said:

We disagree on what constitutes ‘coddling’, if ‘coddling’ is taking place and the ‘drama’ of retaining KOC exists in the heads of some fans.

 

if Rivera wants to retain him he will retain him. If he doesn’t he doesn’t.  I see no parallel with Shanahan - Dan Snyder is not the only person who needs to let go of the past.

That’s the rub, if he doesn’t retain him then he obviously has full control. If he does, it raises questions. Therefore it’s far better move to not retain him in order to put any doubts to rest.

[ShredSkins]

1 minute ago, SoCalSkins said:

He has called 5 games. Let’s not anoint him anything. Dan’s qb buddy has Basically demanded he be retained. If he is that will be viewed by many inside and outside of the organization as more of the same. Callahan is fat more highly regarded as an o line coach than KOC is as an OC and they let him go without issue. Retaining KOC will undermine Rivera from day 1. You want to change culture? You put Dan’s buddies on the roster in their place. There are no special rules and it’s a new regime. That doesn’t happen with KOC on staff.

Is not possible Rivera liked the progress he saw between KOC and Haskins towards the end of the season? Ron obviously really wanted this job because he didn't even entertain any others. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I can understand what you are saying and that type stuff has happened in the past. So it's easy to assume Dan is up to it again. I don't believe that's the case this time. 

[skinsmania123]

1 minute ago, SoCalSkins said:

That’s the rub, if he doesn’t retain him then he obviously has full control. If he does, it raises questions. Therefore it’s far better move to not retain him in order to put any doubts to rest.

All speculation aside don't you think Haskins improved with KOC calling the plays and working with him?   Isn't it best to have some continuity here?

 

Everyone knows I think Dan is a meddling moron but in this case, Haskins took some growth steps when KOC started play calling for him.

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, ShredSkins said:

Is not possible Rivera liked the progress he saw between KOC and Haskins towards the end of the season? Ron obviously really wanted this job because he didn't even entertain any others. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I can understand what you are saying and that type stuff has happened in the past. So it's easy to assume Dan is up to it again. I don't believe that's the case this time. 

This is a unique situation where the perception is Dan is involved with the players and they can go around the coach to get what they want. RG3 being the best example with Shanahan. Retaining KOC keeps that perception alive in my opinion. The dude is not that special even if he is it’s not worth undermining a great new start. Hit the complete reset and let’s all be happy. But if you let Callahan walk as o line coach and retain KOC after Haskins demanded it, something will smell fishy...

[Jericho]

1 hour ago, skinsfan212689 said:

I have to be honest, I get the feeling some (not all) people only want to keep KOC because of the Sean McVay leaving affect. 
 

Honestly Sean has cooled off a bit rather quickly as defenses got a chance to really study him. That Rams team is loaded and has no real excuse for the drop off (missing the playoffs). 
 

Back to KOC. Yes he and Haskins showed some signs late in the year and I’m grateful of that. But if there’s a offensive guy out that that RR feels can do even more to enhance “the entire offense, not just Haskins” then I’m all for it. 
 

Hail

 

I agree with you. It's up in the air how great McVay is. People always raved about him, and I'm sure he's at least a competent head coach. But he also inherited a really good situation with the Rams. How much of that is him and how much of that is the talent around? Not sure. But let's call him a genius. What are the odds the Redskins were keeping two really young great minds? If there's "another McVay" out there, odds are really, really strong he isn't here. And it does seem like people don't want to lose another young coach on the mere possibility he might be another McVay. Which isn't the best rationale. 

 

On the other hand, it's entirely possible Rivera thinks KOC is the best option out there. I guess we'll see...

[SoCalSkins]

1 minute ago, skinsmania123 said:

All speculation aside don't you think Haskins improved with KOC calling the plays and working with him?   Isn't it best to have some continuity here?

 

Everyone knows I think Dan is a meddling moron but in this case, Haskins took some growth steps when KOC started play calling for him.

No it’s best to have a complete change in culture. Let the past die. Start completely new.

[ShredSkins]

Just now, SoCalSkins said:

This is a unique situation where the perception is Dan is involved with the players and they can go around the coach to get what they want. RG3 being the best example with Shanahan. Retaining KOC keeps that perception alive in my opinion. The dude is not that special even if he is it’s not worth undermining a great new start. Hit the complete reset and let’s all be happy. But if you let Callahan walk as o line coach and retain KOC after Haskins demanded it, something will smell fishy...

Shanahan was forced into the RG3 situation after he was hired. Ron has walked into this QB situation. I think that's the biggest difference I can see.

 

Callahan leaving was probably mutual considering he showed interested in the H.C. job. 

[skinsfan212689]

18 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

Who would you suggest?  I agree if there is someone better who could continue to help Haskins grow and maximize potential I am all for it. 

It’s tough but I personally think Haskins best chance would be is more of a spread type offense. I understand KOC has a west coast back ground which is definitely fine but I liked Haskins when we were in the hurry up and spreading things out and letting him read the field. I don’t have a particular OC in mind but I like the idea of keeping an open mind as they are now. 
 

Hail

Edited January 1, 2020 by skinsfan212689

[skinsmania123]

4 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

No it’s best to have a complete change in culture. Let the past die. Start completely new.

But you would agree if Rivera decides to keep him that he is doing it because he wants to, and not based  upon perception or pleasing Danny right?  I mean he is just not the kind of coach who is going to bring KOC along to kiss Danny's ass. He is just not which is what makes him perfect for this team at this juncture.

[SoCalSkins]

Just now, skinsmania123 said:

But you would agree if Rivera decides to keep him that he is doing it because he wants to, and not based  upon perception or pleasing Danny right?  I mean he is just not the kind of coach who is going to bring KOC along to kiss Danny's ass. He is just not which is what makes him perfect for this team at this juncture.

No. If Rivera keeps him it’s because Dan pretty much insisted on it. That will be the perception. The only way Ron can show this is indeed a new chapter and new culture is to get rid of him. Even if he thinks he’s qualified. Doesn’t matter. At this point KOC has to go.

[MartinC]

21 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

That’s the rub, if he doesn’t retain him then he obviously has full control. If he does, it raises questions. Therefore it’s far better move to not retain him in order to put any doubts to rest.

I just fundamentally disagree. 
 

The single most important factor that will make Rivera a success here is the development of Haskins. This is his offense next season and we go as he goes. The progress of his game under KOC and the improvement in offensive production in the last couple of starts was extremely encouraging. The biggest jump a young QB makes (heck ANY QB makes) in a new system is year two. 
 

Now this is an offense that was 32 in passing yardage and 32 in 3rd down conversions so it’s fair for anyone (including Rivera) to have doubts. But there is also a ton of logic in retaining KOC and the continuity. But to think Rivera took this job if retaining KOC was a condition is just a fantasy conspiracy theory as far as I am concerned and firing KOC just so some fans don’t run with that would be a nonsense.

6 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

No. If Rivera keeps him it’s because Dan pretty much insisted on it. That will be the perception. 

Well it might be your perception.

[skinsmania123]

11 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

No. If Rivera keeps him it’s because Dan pretty much insisted on it. That will be the perception. The only way Ron can show this is indeed a new chapter and new culture is to get rid of him. Even if he thinks he’s qualified. Doesn’t matter. At this point KOC has to go.

Wow you see this buys into my perception of Dan as a control freak if you are correct and he has not abandoned this tactic.  This is not a good sign and is a rinse and repeat of the past if he insisted.  Same story slightly different plot.  Which would mean he learned nothing from the "committee of advisors" he assembled if he is pushing this and Rivera is only placating him.   Historically since he took ownership Danny has meddled, backroom style.  Everyone knows this.

 

Again I hope you are wrong.   Personally I think KOC has been great with Haskins.  

Edited January 1, 2020 by skinsmania123

[klwilkins1977]

No O.C. announcement tells me Rivera may be waiting on some of these playoff teams to get eliminated.  KOC is not a lock imo.

[TheBlueIndian]

10 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Retaining KOC keeps that perception alive in my opinion.

 

Haskins demanded it

 

Keeping KOC around in any capacity would be viewed by others as a sound move to continue the young man's development at the QB position. At this point from what we have been told RR is in charge so I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt when it comes to the staff he assembles. If he keeps KOC in the fold it dosen't signify all this meddling owner rg3 big baby conspiracy BS. If he let's him go ...same thing.

 

Did I miss something? Has Haskins demanded that KOC be retained  ? If so that's a bit over the top for the performance he has displayed up to this point. I did see him tweet support for KOC a couple of days ago,  but that hardly sounds like a demand.

[klwilkins1977]

Question:  Did KOC help Haskins or did Haskins start preparing better when he got the starting spot?  

 

The answer to this this question is important because if Haskins improved by merely changing his mind set on his own, or the first team reps improved his outcomes, then the KOC helped Haskins argument is a lot weaker.

Edited January 1, 2020 by klwilkins1977