4-3 Starting Lineup

[MartinC]

On 2/6/2020 at 5:09 AM, KDawg said:

I also think Kerrigan needs to be kept at this point. He's a Redskin through and through. Restructure him and keep him. 

Id keep him as well - rotational player and great locker room guy who leads by example. But I think that restructure will have to be a reduction in both salary and cap number to make it happen.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

Id keep him as well - rotational player and great locker room guy who leads by example. But I think that restructure will have to be a reduction in both salary and cap number to make it happen.

I dunno.  I would see if anybody wanted to trade for him, and if so, I’d be ok trading him.  I just doubt he has a lot of off-season trade value.  
 

This is the last year on his contract. right?  
 

My guess is nothing happens with Kerrigan and they let him play on his current deal.  I don’t think they want to release him or extend him, and I doubt he just renegotiates for less money.  Unless they extend him, and again, I don’t think this regime would do that. I think the previous regime would try and lock him up at a big money deal because he’s a “core Redskin.”  Especially if they think they are drafting Young, and with Sweat here, I just don’t see them extending Kerrigan.  

[MartinC]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I dunno.  I would see if anybody wanted to trade for him, and if so, I’d be ok trading him.  I just doubt he has a lot of off-season trade value.  
 

This is the last year on his contract. right?  

 

Yep last year of his deal. $11M salary and cap number. We can save all $11M if he’s cut or traded. 
 

But like you I don’t think he would have much value in a trade. And he’s coming off a down year and seems to have lost a step.

 

I would not keep him at his current salary. Part of a culture change needs to be not keeping players based on sentiment. He does have value as a rotational player and someone to set a tone around the younger players - but not $11M of value.

 

If he would not take a cut in salary - maybe with an extra year on his deal I’d release him after the draft if we do take Young.

[Voice_of_Reason]

47 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Yep last year of his deal. $11M salary and cap number. We can save all $11M if he’s cut or traded. 
 

But like you I don’t think he would have much value in a trade. And he’s coming off a down year and seems to have lost a step.

 

I would not keep him at his current salary. Part of a culture change needs to be not keeping players based on sentiment. He does have value as a rotational player and someone to set a tone around the younger players - but not $11M of value.

 

If he would not take a cut in salary - maybe with an extra year on his deal I’d release him after the draft if we do take Young.

I think you and I are in complete agreement.  
 

I get the feeling the team won’t agree with us.

 

I think Ron wants to have strong leaders on the team and Kerrigan is that.  And he’s in the last year of his deal, so I could see Ron essentially just deal with it for a year and then be done with it.  Is it expensive? Yes.  But the justification would be its worth it for some continuity (and in Kerrigan’s case, good continuity), it’s short term, and will help with veteran leadership to being Young and Swear along.

 

And If I’m Kerrigan, I am not renegotiating for lower money this year.  Unless they add 2 years and guarantee a lot of it, there’s no benefit.  
 

Which Is why I think in the end it’s going to be status quo.  I don’t see Ron releasing Kerrigan.  I think he’s going to believe there is value in having him on the team.

 

If it was me, I would move him, renegotiate his deal for a lower, non-guaranteed amount, or release him.  But it’s not me.  

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Unless they extend him, and again, I don’t think this regime would do that. 

 

Not sure about that.  Rivera loves his vets, especially on the lines.  I'd be surprised if we just let him play out the last year of his current deal without trying to trade or restructure.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Not sure about that.  Rivera loves his vets, especially on the lines.  I'd be surprised if we just let him play out the last year of his current deal without trying to trade or restructure.

Rivera loves HIS vets who he has loyalty to.  Not sure about vets in general. 
 

We’ll see.  I don’t see them extending Kerrigan for big money.  I could see them adding years at a lower salary which could be mutually beneficial, give him a few more years and dollars but also lower the cap hit.  However I’m not sure Kerrigan would want to do that unless virtually all of it was guaranteed.  I think he’s be more inclined to play out the last year and go into free agency.  But I could be wrong.  

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Rivera loves HIS vets who he has loyalty to.  Not sure about vets in general. 

 

He had no loyalty to Julius Peppers, who was a shell of his former self and 37 years old, when he signed him in FA in 2017.

 

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

We’ll see.  I don’t see them extending Kerrigan for big money.  I could see them adding years at a lower salary which could be mutually beneficial, give him a few more years and dollars but also lower the cap hit.  However I’m not sure Kerrigan would want to do that unless virtually all of it was guaranteed.  I think he’s be more inclined to play out the last year and go into free agency.  But I could be wrong.  

 

I agree Kerrigan won't and shouldn't be extended for big money.  I doubt he would expect that, given the situation.  I definitely think we go the route of adding years at a lower salary or trading him to a contender this offseason if an agreement can't be reached.

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[Anselmheifer]

On 12/30/2019 at 4:25 PM, KDawg said:

I don’t know. I think if you’re judging on potential I think CB is much more sound than ILB. 

How do you feel now?

 

 

 

I think I underestimated this signing. He was quite productive last year in terms of tackles and still looks faster and more violent than I would expect at his age. Especially given his injury history. Is he a SAM or a WILL here?

[HTTRDynasty]

 

 

[KDawg]

You’d think a quality control assistant at Kentucky would even get that right.

 

Oh wait.

[HTTRDynasty]

So, after FA, assuming we draft Young, and assuming R. Foster is healthy, I think it's:

 

RDE: C. Young. / R. Anderson 

3-tech: J. Allen / M. Ioannidis

1-tech: D. Payne / T. Settle

LDE: M. Sweat / R. Kerrigan

 

WLB: S. Hamilton / K. Pierre-Louis

MLB: R. Foster / J. Bostic

SLB: C. Holcomb / T. Davis

 

RCB: R. Darby / J. Moreland

SS: L. Collins / D. Everett

FS: S. Davis / T. Apke

NCB: K. Fuller / J. Moreland

LCB: F. Moreau / G. Stroman

 

I think we'll draft at least one rookie CB and LB.

[Burgundy Yoda]

 

 

 

48 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

So, after FA, assuming we draft Young, and assuming R. Foster is healthy, I think it's:

 

RDE: C. Young. / R. Anderson 

3-tech: J. Allen / M. Ioannidis

1-tech: D. Payne / T. Settle

LDE: M. Sweat / R. Kerrigan

 

5 years ago I would have been happy with the backups as our starters. This is outstanding to look at. 

[KDawg]

3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

So, after FA, assuming we draft Young, and assuming R. Foster is healthy, I think it's:

 

RDE: C. Young. / R. Anderson 

3-tech: J. Allen / M. Ioannidis

1-tech: D. Payne / T. Settle

LDE: M. Sweat / R. Kerrigan

 

WLB: S. Hamilton / K. Pierre-Louis

MLB: R. Foster / J. Bostic

SLB: C. Holcomb / T. Davis

 

RCB: R. Darby / J. Moreland

SS: L. Collins / D. Everett

FS: S. Davis / T. Apke

NCB: K. Fuller / J. Moreland

LCB: F. Moreau / G. Stroman

 

I think we'll draft at least one rookie CB and LB.

 

I think we're fairly close here... (I won't assume Young, even though I think it's a good bet)

 

Base:

 

DE: Kerrigan/Orchard

DE: Sweat/Anderson

3T: Allen/Ioan/Settle

1T: Payne/Ioan/Settle

 

WILL: Davis/SDH/JHC

MIKE: KPL/Bostic

SAM:Foster/Holcomb

 

CB: Darby/Johnson

CB: Moreau/Stro

FS: Fuller/Davis

SS: Collins/Reaves/Everett

 

Nickel:

 

DE: Kerrigan/Anderson

3T: Allen/Brailford

1T: Ioan/Settle

DE: Sweat/Anderson

 

SAM: Davis/KPL

WILL: Foster/SDH

 

Nickel: Fuller/Moreland

CB: Moreau/Stro

CB: Darby/Johnson

FS: Davis/Apke

SS: Collins/Reaves/Everett

[HTTRDynasty]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

I think we're fairly close here... (I won't assume Young, even though I think it's a good bet)

 

Base:

 

WILL: Davis/SDH/JHC

MIKE: KPL/Bostic

SAM: Foster/Holcomb

 

 

Interesting.  I agree we're close here.

 

I'm just not sure I agree with this LB lineup.  Trying to understand your reasoning.

 

From my understanding, Davis played SAM in base the majority of his time in Carolina, with Keuchly at MIKE and Shaq Thompson at WILL.  For SAM, you want someone who can be a force taking on blocks at the LOS, cover short zones, and match-up on TEs.  I don't think Davis is fast enough anymore to be the guy you want flying around unblocked and occasionally covering slot WRs like you'd generally want your WILL to do.  The WILL is usually the most athletic LB on the field.  I don't think that's Davis in this defense.

 

If anything, I could definitely see Foster at WILL so he can fly around and make plays without having to worry about making calls and consistently taking on OL.  The reason I had Foster at MLB though was because I don't think KPL is big enough to play that position at 6'0" 230 and I don't think Bostic should be a starter.  I do NOT want KPL taking on blocks from pulling guards.  At WILL, I started SDH over KPL because, while I think they're both our best coverage LBs, I think SDH has more upside as an all-around player at this point.

 

I know the coaches like Holcomb a lot and don't see him at MIKE, so I would assume they'd put him at SAM, where he'd excel vs the run.  I wouldn't put him at WILL given his issues in coverage.

[KDawg]

I’m confusing the **** out of myself. Long day.

 

I put him at WILL because we have SAM candidates but no real WILL guys.

 

The problem we kind of have is we don’t have many WILL backers. It’s a perfect spot for an Akeem Davis-Gaithers/Isaiah Simmons (we’re not getting Simmons obviously). A Kyle Dugger could play there, too. 
 

We have an abundance of SAM guys. Foster at SAM means your physical coverage guy is locking down tight ends. 
 

As far as MIKE... we simply don’t have one. Could it be Foster? Ya. He can play every LB spot. But how long will he be healthy? Our best MIKE candidate is a guy that isn’t going to play MIKE reportedly (Holcomb).

 

I think our LBs are overall weak, but we have to take advantage of Foster’s athletic ability and leaving him at MIKE isn’t best for him or the team. 
 

KPL taking on second level blocks sure as **** isn’t ideal, but it’s better than Bostic.

 

Our linebackers are a mess. 
 

Davis can play both outside spots. He was a WILL until 2012, then switched to SAM. But since we don’t have any WILLs, really... WILL isn’t ideal for an aging vet. But we don’t have many options. If there are three receivers I imagine we’re Nickel and Davis is out or kicker inside. 

 

We get Davis-Gaither or somehow Simmons (again, we won’t)? Davis is the SAM. Foster plays in the middle. 
 

We really need a MIKE more than anything.

 

Its why I’d love a trade down with Miami. If we could get 5/18 we can snag Murray at 18. Talk about a difference maker for a D? He can play inside and outside. 
 

But...

 

Young is tough to pass on. 

[HTTRDynasty]

Can you explain why you think SDH and KPL wouldn't make good WILLs?

[skinny21]

With no offense intended to the above educated guesses, it’s kind of amazing that we basically have no idea which linebackers will start or which positions they’ll play.  Foster is the only one that probably automatically earns a starting spot, but 1) he could play any of the 3 spots, and 2) with his health concerns, who knows if even plays.  Crazy.  

[KDawg]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

Can you explain why you think SDH and KPL wouldn't make good WILLs?

KPL maybe. SDH I’m not sold on his tackling. Sure, he can cover a little, but his open field tackling leaves something to be desired. Your WILL has to have some range to him. SDH is slower than you’d like as your WILL, both in gym shorts and on the field. He doesn’t have the speed to hang with slots in man. He runs a 4.65.

 

He actually fits better as a SAM, but his coverage skills are better than the other backers. Holcomb’s speed fits better as a WILL, but he’s not a great cover guy (maybe Del Rio and Rivera can fix that?).

 

KPL runs a 4.51 40. But he’s been on 5 teams in 7 seasons. So there’s something missing there.

 

Foster is a 4.56 guy with a LOT of instinctual speed. He plays fast... if he’s healthy. Big question there. So I wouldn’t want him at WILL, either. 
 

Murray runs a 4.52 and is sideline to sideline like Foster. 
 

Even Davis Gaither is projected to be slower. So he may be more of a SAM candidate, but we don’t know because he hasn’t run yet. He plays fast on tape. 
 

Simmons runs a 4.39.

 

Without injuries factored in the 3 backers I have the most faith in are Foster, Holcomb and Davis. Holcomb should be the MIKE in that group. But he likely won’t be.

 

With injuries it’s just Holcomb and Davis. And Davis probably isn’t here for more than a year and Holcomb has coverage issues. 
 

This team needs a home run at MIKE if they want to be successful. Or spend a lot of time in Nickel, which is likely our best personnel package anyways. 
 

 

3 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

With no offense intended to the above educated guesses, it’s kind of amazing that we basically have no idea which linebackers will start or which positions they’ll play.  Foster is the only one that probably automatically earns a starting spot, but 1) he could play any of the 3 spots, and 2) with his health concerns, who knows if even plays.  Crazy.  

As you know, I’ve been harping on this for months. Linebacker is a major problem area for this team that is overlooked so often. It’s an issue.

 

I’d say Davis starts. For sure. But the combination of where/who/how long/2-down vs. 3 down is rough.

[HTTRDynasty]

14 minutes ago, KDawg said:

KPL maybe. SDH I’m not sold on his tackling. Sure, he can cover a little, but his open field tackling leaves something to be desired. Your WILL has to have some range to him. SDH is slower than you’d like as your WILL, both in gym shorts and on the field. He doesn’t have the speed to hang with slots in man. He runs a 4.65.

 

Yeah, I just don't agree about SDH.  He ran a 4.65 in HS.  Most prospects improve their times from HS to college due to their college nutrition and strength training programs.  Regardless, there are plenty of successful WILLs that have run in the 4.6 range or higher:

 

KJ Wright - 4.75

Dre Greenlaw - 4.73

Sean Lee - 4.71

Lavonte David - 4.65

Shaq Thompson - 4.64

 

Regarding missed tackles:  Last year, SDH had a missed tackle rate of 7.5% and Thomas Davis has a missed tackle rate of 11.1%.

 

I agree with you about not having a true MIKE, which sucks.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Yeah, I just don't agree about SDH.  He ran a 4.65 in HS.  Most prospects improve their times from HS to college due to their college nutrition and strength training programs.  Regardless, there are plenty of successful WILLs that have run in the 4.6 range or higher:

 

KJ Wright - 4.75

Dre Greenlaw - 4.73

Sean Lee - 4.71

Lavonte David - 4.65

Shaq Thompson - 4.64

 

Regarding missed tackles:  Last year, SDH had a missed tackle rate of 7.5% and Thomas Davis has a missed tackle rate of 11.1%.

 

I agree with you about not having a true MIKE, which sucks.

Missed tackle rates can be misleading. From the games I saw, which wasn’t all of them obviously for the Chargers, but some, Davis was in position to make more plays. He missed more. 
 

%s would seem to be a clear picture, but one bad day, one nasty receiver and your percentage gets skewed fierce. And in football, the more times you’re in a spot, the more times you’re going to miss (obviously).

 

Davis has proven he can be reliable. SDH hasn’t. 
 

You absolutely CAN be a slower WILL. And, one play from last season stands out in particular for SDH - he triggered on a bubble, got downhill like he was shot out of a cannon and lit the guy up. But when he has to think or range he wasn’t as fast. It was when he played with instincts that he made an impact. That version of SDH can play WILL. Not the hesitant version we saw too much of. 
 

Greenlaw, in my opinion, was an unrecognized cog in the SF D last year that made the engine purr. He shadowed Cook in that playoff game and was a big reason he never got going. He was a key factor in the pass rush being effective because how he took Cook away. He plays fast. I don’t see that from SDH on a regular basis.

 

Again, if the coaches can get him to play with instinct I think he can do it. Question is: Do old habits die hard?

 

@Master Blaster likes JHC and doesn’t like SDH. I’m flipped on his stance but he thinks SDH will be cut. I’m not sure on that. But he’s got a lot to prove and fast. 
 

The team needs to be faster at linebacker. Both linearly and game speed wise. If they can’t range the best pass rush in the league isn’t going to help. Being able to make a run read and still get to a coverage assignment is a big deal for a linebacker. 
 

I think SDH is a slower KPL. And again, I mean game speed and linear. But he may be a better KPL. I’m not sure yet. But 7 years and 5 teams sounds like he’s a good hand, willing to do anything, loved by coaches... but not a key cog.

[98ORAKPO98]

My 2020 Redskins roster.

 

Defense:

 

RDE: C. Young (1st round draft) / J. Brailford 

3-tech: J. Allen / M. Ioannidis / C. Brantley

1-tech: D. Payne / T. Settle

LDE: M. Sweat / R. Kerrigan / R. Anderson

 

WLB: C. Holcomb / K. Pierre-Louis

MLB: R. Foster / J. Bostic

SLB: T. Davis / SDH <- (Backup MLB also)

 

RCB: R. Darby / D. Johnson / G. Stroman

SS: L. Collins / D. Everett

FS: S. Davis / T. Apke / J. Reaves

NCB: K. Fuller / J. Moreland

LCB: F. Moreau / J. Moreland

 

*Fuller may start at RCB in base defense and slide to NCB in nickle defense.

 

Offense:

 

RT: M. Moses / C. Lucas

RG: B. Scherff / W. Schweitzer 

C- C. Roullier / R. Pierschbacher

LG: W. Martin / W. Schweitzer 

LT: D. Penn (fa signing) / G. Christian

 

QB: D. Haskins / K. Allen

RB: A. Peterson / D. Guice / B. Love / J.D. McKissic

WR1: T. McLaurin / C. Sims

WR2:  Chase Claypool (2nd round draft pick in trade for TW) / K. Harmon

SWR: S. Sims Jr. / T. Quinn

TE: Harrison Bryant (3rd round draft) / H. Hentges / L. Thomas

 

Special Teams:

 

K: D. Hopkins

P: T. Way

LS: N. Sundberg

 

I hope we draft a safety, cornerback or inside linebacker (BPA) and inside offensive lineman with our 4th round picks and 5th round pick and go BPA with our two 7th round picks. Hopefully can trade Trent William's for a 2nd round pick, (then can draft BPA T, WR, or TE). Maybe sign another free agent or two, make a big trade before the year starts, and find a gem or two undrafted free agents. So the depth chart may look a little different before the season starts, but if the roster looks similar to the one above, we can compete for a Super Bowl title next year if we stay healthy and Haskins keeps progressing like he did towards the end of last season.

 

There's a lot of potential stars on the above roster if they can stay healthy and the depth looks good at most positions. The 10 above defensive lineman would be the best and deepest DL in the league. Young, Allen, Sweat can be all pro's, with Young having DPOTY potential, most of the others have pro bowl potential. The starting linebackers have the potential to be very good, Davis is still a solid player and Holcomb and Foster can be star players. Collins can be a star if used right at SS and the rest of the young secondary can be very good if they stay healthy. Potential is there to be the top defense in the NFL.

 

Offensively, Haskins has the arm, talent and potential to be a very good QB. AP is very solid still and Guice and Love if they can stay healthy can be superstars. Love can be the Redskins version of Christian McCaffrey and will be the biggest surprise player I believe. The offensive line should be adequate until further addressed next year in free agency and the draft. They can be solid if we sign a player like Penn or Peter's in FA to play LT. McLaurin is a budding superstar and Sims Jr. is an electrifying player in his own right. If we can draft Chase Claypool and Harrison Bryant or similar players, the offense has the potential to be explosive.

 

The specialty players, K, P, LS are solid, especially the P.

 

Our 3 peat Super Bowl quest starts this year. 😄

 

Dang I counted 54 players on the above roster, my fellow ESers, who gets the axe? 😄 I say either D. Everett or G. Stroman, I like both but someone has to go. Everett might stick because he's the special teams captain.

[Master Blaster]

15 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

@Master Blaster likes JHC and doesn’t like SDH. I’m flipped on his stance but he thinks SDH will be cut. I’m not sure on that. But he’s got a lot to prove and fast. 
 

The team needs to be faster at linebacker. Both linearly and game speed wise. If they can’t range the best pass rush in the league isn’t going to help. Being able to make a run read and still get to a coverage assignment is a big deal for a linebacker. 

 

 

I'm not necessarily bigger on JHC than SDH.  I just think he offers more as a backup than SDH because he has elite athleticism (not the greatest instincts) for an ILB to utilize on ST's and in specialty packages.

To piggyback off your point, JHC is more Greenlaw whereas SDH is more of a plugger.  For this system, I don't see the benefit of a plugger.  I hope the easier system allows JHC to use his athletic abilities much more than the old system did.

[KDawg]

Just now, Master Blaster said:

 

 

I'm not necessarily bigger on JHC than SDH.  I just think he offers more as a backup than SDH because he has elite athleticism (not the greatest instincts) for an ILB to utilize on ST's and in specialty packages.

To piggyback off your point, JHC is more Greenlaw whereas SDH is more of a plugger.  For this system, I don't see the benefit of a plugger.  I hope the easier system allows JHC to use his athletic abilities much more than the old system did.

 

Interesting. I didn't see Greenlaw in JHC at all. But I'll have to take another look at JHC now. I'll fire GamePass up later and see what I see.

 

Thanks.

[HTTRDynasty]

15 hours ago, KDawg said:

Missed tackle rates can be misleading. From the games I saw, which wasn’t all of them obviously for the Chargers, but some, Davis was in position to make more plays. He missed more. 
 

%s would seem to be a clear picture, but one bad day, one nasty receiver and your percentage gets skewed fierce. And in football, the more times you’re in a spot, the more times you’re going to miss (obviously).

 

Davis has proven he can be reliable. SDH hasn’t. 
 

You absolutely CAN be a slower WILL. And, one play from last season stands out in particular for SDH - he triggered on a bubble, got downhill like he was shot out of a cannon and lit the guy up. But when he has to think or range he wasn’t as fast. It was when he played with instincts that he made an impact. That version of SDH can play WILL. Not the hesitant version we saw too much of. 
 

Greenlaw, in my opinion, was an unrecognized cog in the SF D last year that made the engine purr. He shadowed Cook in that playoff game and was a big reason he never got going. He was a key factor in the pass rush being effective because how he took Cook away. He plays fast. I don’t see that from SDH on a regular basis.

 

Again, if the coaches can get him to play with instinct I think he can do it. Question is: Do old habits die hard?

 

@Master Blaster likes JHC and doesn’t like SDH. I’m flipped on his stance but he thinks SDH will be cut. I’m not sure on that. But he’s got a lot to prove and fast. 
 

The team needs to be faster at linebacker. Both linearly and game speed wise. If they can’t range the best pass rush in the league isn’t going to help. Being able to make a run read and still get to a coverage assignment is a big deal for a linebacker. 
 

I think SDH is a slower KPL. And again, I mean game speed and linear. But he may be a better KPL. I’m not sure yet. But 7 years and 5 teams sounds like he’s a good hand, willing to do anything, loved by coaches... but not a key cog.

 

Yeah, we just have to agree to disagree on SDH.  I think he is fast and very instinctive and I would want him to start at WILL if Foster doesn't start there.