4-3 Starting Lineup

[KDawg]

4 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

 

If we're switching from 3-4 to 4-3, it seems like we will need less linebackers

 

Only if you look at that number as gospel. 

 

4-3, 3-4... labels. Nothing more.

 

In our 3-4, we only really used two linebackers. And then the other 2 of the 4 were defensive ends dropping into coverage. In nickel, it was mostly two linebackers.

 

In the 4-3, we need 3 actual linebackers on the field at all times.

[carex]

7 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I have a hard time seeing Foster as a MIKE from the mental side. Calling plays and getting guys into position is one of the jobs of the MIKE backer and Foster has never been in that position. It was SDH at Bama who was the brains of the operation and did all of that. Foster was the instinctive play maker who was always flying to the ball. I have no doubt he could do it physically, but I'm just not sure he has enough experience on the mental side of it to be successful at that position. I could certainly be wrong though. 

 

MLB being the signal caller is the tradition, not the rule

[Koolblue13]

20 hours ago, dicksogj said:

 

Great idea here & some other good ideas in this thread.  Folks have to resist the urge to badmouth current players & write them off.  It may be a matter of thing being used incorrectly by Manusky & others & not having the rt mix of players. Can't wait to see how these players will be used in the coming season perhaps mixed in with a few new players.

Check rule #14, before you get in trouble.

[dicksogj]

54 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Check rule #14, before you get in trouble.

 

LOL - are you serious?   That is my name - not a reference to anything else.  I have had this acct for years & have just not had the chance to change it or perhaps add a new screen name.  Thx

[CTskins]

On 12/30/2019 at 11:27 AM, ntotoro said:

Hate to jump too off-tangent, but I listened to the Junkies this morning to see what updates there were and they blasted Snyder for wanting a 4-3 DC with the next HC. I mean... take Snyder out of the picture and look at this in a vacuum. This team has never had the proper 3-4 personnel and never even properly tried. Just that switch alone would take better advantage of the existing personnel. It's not exactly a dumb idea, even if it comes from Danny Snyder.

I thought Rivera was granted Belichick-like control!?! What happened to The Owner stepping back, observing from his Box on game day, and collecting his money?

 

While correlation does not precisely equal causation, I think it has played out over the last 20+ years that whatever Ownership wants, Football Ops. should do the opposite. 

 

"Summer of 'George,'" Baby!!

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, dicksogj said:

 

LOL - are you serious?   That is my name - not a reference to anything else.  I have had this acct for years & have just not had the chance to change it or perhaps add a new screen name.  Thx

Is that what rule 14 is?

[dicksogj]

19 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Is that what rule 14 is?

 

Help me out here - this is what I saw for Rule # 14:

 

14. Refrain from posting explicit material in your signature and avatar.
This includes sexually explicit or implicit (hardcore/softcore pornography, animated pictures, written language, etc.) content. There shall be no full/partial frontal or full rear nudity. This rule is strictly enforced.

 

Am I looking at the wrong set of rules?  If not - what exactly am I violating?   Being sincere - thanks.

 

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, dicksogj said:

 

Help me out here - this is what I saw for Rule # 14:

 

14. Refrain from posting explicit material in your signature and avatar.
This includes sexually explicit or implicit (hardcore/softcore pornography, animated pictures, written language, etc.) content. There shall be no full/partial frontal or full rear nudity. This rule is strictly enforced.

 

Am I looking at the wrong set of rules?  If not - what exactly am I violating?   Being sincere - thanks.

 

Sorry, maybe it was rule 11. There was a sticky about it recently, about quoting pics, videos and large blocks of text. Trying to be helpful and doing a bad job at it.

[dicksogj]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Sorry, maybe it was rule 11. There was a sticky about it recently, about quoting pics, videos and large blocks of text. Trying to be helpful and doing a bad job at it.

 

NP - appreciate it.  I will simply edit quotes like this in the future & remove most of the large pics, quotes, etc.  That is a good rule.  Pretty funny misunderstanding....

[Llevron]

On 12/30/2019 at 11:36 AM, KDawg said:

 

One of the smart people can answer after my reply...

 

But typically:

 

SAM/WILL - Need to be versatile. Likely will come off the field in a lot of modern NFL sets (with our current set up, but ideally these are the guys who stay on the field in Nickel unless you have Ray Lewis or Brian Urlacher). They are coverage responsible for a TE (SAM) or slot receiver (WILL, but this can be the FS or SS depending) in man , and hook to curl (or curl to flat in zone.

 

EDIT: Ideally you want linebackers who can be sound at the point of attack and cover. The more of them you have the better you'll be. Foster (again, if he's healthy) will likely stay on the field in nickel situations to be one of the two inside guys. The other inside guy is a similar issue to the SAM/WILL issue.

 

And if Foster isn't healthy we're in a similar situation backer wise to this season.

 

So I have let you pollute my mind over the last few days. Before I thought because of how other people have talked about him Young was the clear cut answer for us @ 2. But now I am starting to wonder if even though Young is the better talent, Simmons is the better fir for our squad. 

 

Because of this, I have begun to wonder which position is more important for the style of defense we want to run. In particular, which one will make attacking the opposing QB as often as possible a realistic strategy for us. Obviously the pass rusher rushes, but the LB gives us the ability to be versatile and show blitzes, which is almost as important, and still cover. That last sentence is my rudimentary understanding so please correct where it is wrong. 

 

So ignoring BPA logic draft status and honestly the players at this point - which position do you think is most important in a 4-3 for allowing us to attack consistently? When I say us I mean this roster. Which position in the 4-3 does THIS roster need to be successful at harassing Jones for the rest of his God forsaken life?  

 

I know - I word these ideas in my head the weirdest ways lol

[KDawg]

14 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

So I have let you pollute my mind over the last few days. Before I thought because of how other people have talked about him Young was the clear cut answer for us @ 2. But now I am starting to wonder if even though Young is the better talent, Simmons is the better fir for our squad. 

 

Because of this, I have begun to wonder which position is more important for the style of defense we want to run. In particular, which one will make attacking the opposing QB as often as possible a realistic strategy for us. Obviously the pass rusher rushes, but the LB gives us the ability to be versatile and show blitzes, which is almost as important, and still cover. That last sentence is my rudimentary understanding so please correct where it is wrong. 

 

So ignoring BPA logic draft status and honestly the players at this point - which position do you think is most important in a 4-3 for allowing us to attack consistently? When I say us I mean this roster. Which position in the 4-3 does THIS roster need to be successful at harassing Jones for the rest of his God forsaken life?  

 

I know - I word these ideas in my head the weirdest ways lol

 

Edge.

 

Always edge and DL. 

 

I think we have good edges, but I'm not sure how you pass on Young. It's just scary to think of him on the DL.

 

But I think safeties are incredibly important, too. So FS gets highlighted. 

 

OLB and corner you need guys who can do their jobs well. Not necessarily studs.

 

The reason Simmons is so intriguing is he can play OLB in the base, but can play slot or as a safety role (while still being labeled an OLB) in nickel sets. Gives you more ability to hide what you're doing, which makes pressure packages more effective as you're not changing personnel to defend things.

 

So it's not so much the position that Simmons plays that makes me like him. It's what he brings to the table. His versatility. His skills. His talent. He can fill holes at FS/CB/OLB as one dude. Obviously not in all positions at all times, but in spots.

 

But in a 4-3 you need decent OLBs who can fulfill a role. You don't need studs there. If you're picking a LB spot where you need a beast it's the MIKE spot.

[HTTRDynasty]

 

The majority of our defensive snaps will be in Nickel, and I think it makes sense to keep Collins in the box on those snaps, which is what JDR did with T.J. Ward in Denver (shown below). 
 

Our coverage on the backend would be so much better if we had SDH and Collins at LB in Nickel with two coverage safeties on the back-end. Maybe Montae or Apke could even excel in that role, as they’d only have to cover one half of the field instead of playing single-high. That would give us less of a need to sign a high-priced LB in FA. 
 

I guess the biggest concern would be our run defense, but it seemed to work well in Denver. I think we should give it a shot. 

 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

The majority of our defensive snaps will be in Nickel, and I think it makes sense to keep Collins in the box on those snaps, which is what JDR did with T.J. Ward in Denver (shown below). 
 

Our coverage on the backend would be so much better if we had SDH and Collins at LB in Nickel with two coverage safeties on the back-end. Maybe Montae or Apke could even excel in that role, as they’d only have to cover one half of the field instead of playing single-high. That would give us less of a need to sign a high-priced LB in FA. 
 

I guess the biggest concern would be our run defense, but it seemed to work well in Denver. I think we should give it a shot. 

 

 

 

OR you get Isaiah Simmons and leave him in on nickel and don't worry about getting all fancy

 

I like the premise... but I do worry about the run D in nickel situations with SDH and Landon Collins in the box as run defenders.

[HTTRDynasty]

20 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

OR you get Isaiah Simmons and leave him in on nickel and don't worry about getting all fancy

 

I like the premise... but I do worry about the run D in nickel situations with SDH and Landon Collins in the box as run defenders.

 

The Broncos were the 3rd ranked rush defense in DVOA the year they got TJ Ward, so I would trust JDR to know how to make it work.

 

Yeah, Simmons would be a great consolation if we miss out on Young.  If that happened, I may still prefer Simmons in deep coverage over Collins...

[Silvernon]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Edge.

 

Always edge and DL. 

 

I think we have good edges, but I'm not sure how you pass on Young. It's just scary to think of him on the DL.

 

But I think safeties are incredibly important, too. So FS gets highlighted. 

 

OLB and corner you need guys who can do their jobs well. Not necessarily studs.

 

The reason Simmons is so intriguing is he can play OLB in the base, but can play slot or as a safety role (while still being labeled an OLB) in nickel sets. Gives you more ability to hide what you're doing, which makes pressure packages more effective as you're not changing personnel to defend things.

 

So it's not so much the position that Simmons plays that makes me like him. It's what he brings to the table. His versatility. His skills. His talent. He can fill holes at FS/CB/OLB as one dude. Obviously not in all positions at all times, but in spots.

 

But in a 4-3 you need decent OLBs who can fulfill a role. You don't need studs there. If you're picking a LB spot where you need a beast it's the MIKE spot.

 

This would be a tougher decision if they were at pick #3 on the outside looking in at Young. 

 

What you said regarding the 43 is correct, however I do believe there are two operating assumptions going on: 1) Foster returns healthy, and 2) the safety market is strong. 

 

With Dion-Hamilton showing well in coverage last year, and Anderson remaining as a run-stopping sub, I think you can add to the mix at SLB (late draft, e.g. Holcomb) and be okay for the year.

 

Foster at MLB and Holcomb at WLB should be a very good pair. Particularly Holcomb at WLB working behind Chase Young cleaning up behind him. 

 

Tre Boston seems an obvious fit to fill the temporary hole at FS.

 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[MartinC]

On 1/9/2020 at 9:30 AM, dicksogj said:

 

NP - appreciate it.  I will simply edit quotes like this in the future & remove most of the large pics, quotes, etc.  That is a good rule.  Pretty funny misunderstanding....

 

You are allowed to use your own name 🙂

 

You should not quote large blocks of text or include videos or pictures when you quote posts. We are starting to get stricter on applying that rule as most members access the site now using mobile devices and having to scroll through (and download) tons of pictures can make it a frustrating experience. 

[dicksogj]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

 

You are allowed to use your own name 🙂

 

You should not quote large blocks of text or include videos or pictures when you quote posts. We are starting to get stricter on applying that rule as most members access the site now using mobile devices and having to scroll through (and download) tons of pictures can make it a frustrating experience. 

 

Appreciate it.  Like I said now that I know I will make sure to keep the quoted material to a minimum & not include pics, videos, huge amts of text ,etc..

[Voice_of_Reason]

I am going back to this because this is an awesome post I never had a chance to reply to.  

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, KDawg said:

So after letting things sink in a little, here would be my lineup (it's not all that different from my original, I'm also not assuming who we draft)

 

DE: Sweat, Orchard

DE: Kerrigan, Anderson

1-Tech: Payne

3-Tech: Allen

MIKE: Holcomb (off the field in NICKEL looks)

SAM: Foster/Anderson when Foster inevitably gets hurt

WILL: Dion-Hamilton

CB: Dunbar

CB: Moreau

NICKEL: Moreland

FS: Apke

SS: Collins

So I know you are just using folks who are on the team to fit them into positions. But I've highlighted the folks above who I don't think will either be on the team or starting. 

 

I see Foster more of the MIKE than the SAM.  If healthy, he's got a lot of range, and he was a sure tackler.  Didn't he play MIKE in SF?  Or am I messing that up.  

 

In today's NFL, I think you need a guy who can really run at the SAM, because they often have responsibility for the TE.  And the TEs are turning into glorified, bigger slot receivers.  So you need somebody big enough to match a TE, but also fast enough to cover a bit. My gut tells me the best fit is Holcomb, who I see as a guy who really flies around.  Maybe I'm wrong.

 

I see Anderson as more of a Will.  He can cover a bit (at least he has been asked to), and he can rush the passer. 

 

The secondary is just a mess.  Dunny and Collins are set, they absolutely need to get another DB and a FS.  

 

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, KDawg said:

Ioan would spell both the 1/3 Tech spots and likely wind up with more or similar snaps to the two "starters". Will once again be one of our better defensive players due to his flexibility. Though we could use another large body 1-technique guy to spell Payne. 

I agree, I think you'd see basically a rotation of the 3 of them inside, probably even with Settle or another DT in there every now and then.  

 

However, in certain situations, you might be able to kick Allen out to DE, and have all three on the field at the same time.  He's big for a 4-3 DE, but it might work.  

 

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, KDawg said:

Ioan had 839 snaps as a DL this season. That's 10th in the NFL. Payne 766. Allen 730.  Their % of defensive snaps, though, isn't all that crazy. They were on the field too much. The defense will be aided by a good offense. Significantly so. 

The Greek Freak is going to get his.  They won't be able to keep him off the field, nor will they want to. I feel Ron and Jack are going to want to bring in fresh guys in waves to attack the offense. 

 

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, KDawg said:

Now, looking at this I see significant weakness at linebacker, FS and corner, which we knew. 

Yes.  This is the "water is wet, the sky is blue" obvious situation.  They NEED to upgrade these positions.  

 

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, KDawg said:

Anderson right now is penciled in as a DE, but if the team drafts Young, he likely moves to a 7-tech/OLB role. 

I don't see Anderson as a DE.  I really think he's the LB that could stay a LB.  Especially if (when?) they draft Young.

 

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, KDawg said:

Dunbar plays in ~12 games/season. Not awful. But depth is a concern. And really, another starting caliber corner where Moreau is pushed to a backup role (and likely to play in place of Dunbar) is an ideal situation.

I love Dunny, but availability is an issue.  I'm not sold on Moreland.  But he's a rookie, and he's competitive.  It's tough to tell what he would do better at, playing outside or inside, because the defense was such trash for most of the year, and so poorly coached.  I am hoping they can get something out of Dunny, Moreau and Moreland, and then add 2 or 3 guys to compete and at least one legitimate starter.  

 

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, KDawg said:

Free safety is the actual worst single position of this group. I have no faith in Apke or Nicholson. Maybe they prove me wrong. 

FS is the weakest spot on the entire team. By a country mile.  And you could make an argument that has been the case since November 27, 2007.  

 

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, KDawg said:

SDH is a TOTAL wildcard. Good in coverage, doesn't attack downhill very well in the run game, tackles well, excellent instincts. Holcomb is not good in coverage, doesn't attack downhill, but he's a smart player who gets to the ball (down the field more than I'd like, but this could be remedied from playing in Del Rio/Rivera's 4-3 MIKE spot), tackles well. Foster I 100% do not count on at all. Anderson in coverage is a nightmare.

This really is what JDR and RR and the staff are going to have to figure out.  Foster, if healthy, is a very solid player, at least he was.  When he wasn't getting arrested or hurt.  I see him as a MIKE, and if he stays healthy (big if) and not arrested/suspended (maybe less of an if), he could be a very good one.

 

Anderson in coverage is a problem.  But especially if they draft Young, he's going to have to stay at LB.  If I remember my 4-3 theory, the WILL has the most varied responsibilities.  They are off the TE, so they could drop into a zone, they could play run, or rush.  I think that if you basically had Anderson as the WILL, and the scheme said, "play the run or rush the QB" that might work.  

 

I THINK there are 4 guys who can play, in SDH, Holcomb, Anderson and Foster (again, caveat, if if if).  Which is not to say they might add a few bodies to that mix.  

 

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, KDawg said:

SLIGHTLY CONTROVERSIAL:

As far as the draft goes: I think this team drafts Chase Young. He's a tremendous player who can change a game. He will be the BPA at our pick unless Cincy takes him. I do not, under any circumstances, advocate passing on him if he's available. But part of me kind of wants Cincy to take him. Forgetting the possibility of a trade back, or a quarterback, That leaves us with Simmons or Okudah as the BPA... And both of them fill a significant need.

So I'm not sure what the hell about that was controversial. 

 

Though, with the benefit of the last 7 days since you posted this, I think Burrow already has retained a real estate agent in Cincinnati, and has contacted movers.. Burrow's girlfriend Oliva graduated from OSU, where they met.  This is too perfect for the Bengals NOT to draft Burrow.  Midwestern kid, went to OSU for a period, family roots, it's about as sure a lock as you can get.

 

And then the second lock is that Chase Young is looking at real estate in Ashburn.  

 

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, KDawg said:

Our depth at the DE position is enough to be relatively successful with them rushing more.

They will probably line up Sweat and Young on the outside and rotate Kerrigan in.  There's just no way Kerrigan stays at LB, and he is just not going to be as good a DE as Sweat or Young at this stage in his career.  I would absolutely look to move him for picks if somebody wanted him.  I like him a ton, even have been bike riding with him back at one of Lorenzo Alexander's community events.  But there might not be a place for him except as a backup.  Though, he'd be an awesome backup. 

 

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, KDawg said:

So, to sum it up:

 

Assuming Cincy takes Burrows, my draft board looks like this:

 

1. Chase Young

2. Isaiah Simmons

2b. Okudah

It's Young.   

 

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, KDawg said:

I kind of want Cincy to pull the trigger on Young, though. NOT THAT I DON'T WANT HIM, he changes games by his presence alone and it's extremely difficult to pass on a pass rusher of his caliber... So you absolutely do not pass on him. But I think we get a stud at 2 regardless.

 

Olivia Holzmacher (aka Joe's lovely girlfriend) is measuring for drapes and looking for a bed in Cincy.  It's all done but the hugging of Goodell.  

[skinny21]

@Voice_of_Reason Typically, your WILL is your most athletic linebacker. They’re often the ‘playmaker’ with the SAM and Mike more often taking on blockers to keep the WILL free.  Usually are the lightest/fastest of the 3.  I think it will be Foster, or SDH if Foster is healthy and plays MIKE.  Outside chance at Holcomb fitting here - he’s got decent enough speed, and plays the run pretty well, but I don’t know that it’s the right fit for him.
@KDawg makes a good point about whether SDH can produce as a downhill player.  I think he can, but that’s mostly based on a handful of plays he slipped blocks to get TFLs on screens.  
SAM is the tricky one.  They have to be able to handle blocking TEs, plug gaps (two areas Anderson can work), but also cover TEs and backs (and even receivers on occasion)... and this is where he is likely a big liability.  

[KDawg]

Foster can play MIKE, but his injury concerns then mean your primary play caller has an injury history. So skirt tradition and play him at MIKE and let someone else call plays.

 

Problem there is: Holcomb is not good in coverage. Like... at all. So who plays SAM? Anderson? Not sure he’s a fit for that role on the regular. Same issue for coverage. Leaves SDH for that role, but I haven’t seen him play downhill yet. 

 

Holcomb isn’t sideline to sideline fast enough/fast enough reactor to play WILL, which is your playmaker.

 

And, this isn’t accounting for Foster’s injury risk.

 

The best play, with the current roster, is Holcomb at MIKE. Less coverage, less reads, more downhill and allows him to do what he does best: tackle and play smart.
 

Foster, when healthy, can play WILL or SAM. He’s actually capable of all 3 LB spots. 
 

SDH can play WILL or SAM.

 

SO, if Foster is healthy (don’t count on it) Foster/SDH at OLB and Holcomb at MIKE makes the most sense at the moment.

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@Voice_of_Reason Typically, your WILL is your most athletic linebacker. They’re often the ‘playmaker’ with the SAM and Mike more often taking on blockers to keep the WILL free.  Usually are the lightest/fastest of the 3.  I think it will be Foster, or SDH if Foster is healthy and plays MIKE.  Outside chance at Holcomb fitting here - he’s got decent enough speed, and plays the run pretty well, but I don’t know that it’s the right fit for him.
@KDawg makes a good point about whether SDH can produce as a downhill player.  I think he can, but that’s mostly based on a handful of plays he slipped blocks to get TFLs on screens.  
SAM is the tricky one.  They have to be able to handle blocking TEs, plug gaps (two areas Anderson can work), but also cover TEs and backs (and even receivers on occasion)... and this is where he is likely a big liability.  

Yeah, the issue is Anderson.  He’s a complete mess in coverage. At least he has been.  He’s not going to be a DE.   It ge can be solid against the run and can rush the passer a bit. 

 

Whatever they do with Anderson, they need to limit the amount of time he is in coverage.  Or maybe they can coach him up better and he approves 
 

And the wildcard is Foster’s health.  

 

 

[RandyHolt]

I see a tweet from Bowen has data I have been looking for.  I don't expect to ever consistently see pass coverage data as detailed as this, what with the snails pace that the NFL world embraced "advanced" statistics, but its refreshing nonetheless. As an avid viewer from the comforts of home, I and most others rarely to never get to see coverages used or explained during the game, and before this I have never even seen anything as specific as red zone tendencies. I do hope our new staff embraces compiling and using data like this. And of course, charting what defense is run on a play, should not be considered "advanced". Its the most basic of data that could be gathered.

 

https://twitter.com/MattBowen41/status/1217541647208198145?s=20

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bakedtater1]

On 1/9/2020 at 6:55 AM, Koolblue13 said:

Check rule #14, before you get in trouble.

For what?..having the name dicks so soggy?..that's what I see when I see his name anyway lol

[HTTRDynasty]

One Breakout Player of the Year candidate at each position for the 2020 NFL season

 

LB SHAUN DION HAMILTON, WASHINGTON REDSKINS

This offseason, we wrote that Hamilton was in a position to break out in the wake of Reuben Foster’s knee injury. In a part-time role, he did play well, earning a 74.9 overall grade on 387 defensive snaps. Most importantly, he was excellent in coverage. Hamilton’s 89.7 coverage grade this season ranked second among all qualifying linebackers, sandwiched between Lavonte David and the recently retired Luke Kuechly for the best marks in the NFL. It’s an area of his game that was a strength coming out of Alabama, and it has flashed at the NFL level.

 

Jon Bostic and rookie Cole Holcomb both saw significantly more snaps than Hamilton, but both were outplayed by the second-year player. If he is able to carve out a larger role next season alongside the returning Foster, his coverage ability makes him an intriguing breakout candidate in addition to his teammate Guice on the other side of the ball.