sabbath1981

4-3 Starting Lineup

Recommended Posts

I don’t recall consensus on drafting a LT. First round really should be BPA

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 12/30/2019 at 12:48 PM, philibusters said:

Is Holcomb really worse than somebody like Ryan Anderson in coverage?

Quit dogging on Anderson how do you know he won’t thrive in this new scheme dude is a beast.  I’d put him at MLB.  He’d be a starter on the Steelers and he’s not good enough to play here you got to be kidding me. 

Edited by wtfskins
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, wtfskins said:

Quit dogging on Anderson how do you know he won’t thrive in this new scheme dude is a beast.  I’d put him at MLB.  He’d be a starter on the Steelers and he’s not good enough to play here you got to be kidding me. 


Okay, you’ve got me. 
 

I can’t tell if this is satire or serious. 
 

You win. Well done.

  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

We have a talented bunch of players on defense.  I don’t dog on any of them.  They have been playing the wrong scheme for years.  We can not get rid of guys just cause we have to many D lineman and linebackers.  We keep them all the best teams in the league have players who spell them.  
 

Imagine Chase Young , and Sweat being spelled by Kerrigan and Anderson.  And Ionadis and Payne being spelled by Settle and Allen.  
 

We can afford all these guys next year why would we want to drop guys this year?  Keep them all let Jack Del Rio develop a defense teams are afraid of.  
 

Quit with the rumors of dropping Kerrigan and other dudes cause they don’t fit.  Believe me Jack will plug them in to come downhill we could be a force but not if we get rid of these guys.
 

 1 more year let’s let them get comfortable and play together.  

Edited by wtfskins
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, KDawg said:

I don’t recall consensus on drafting a LT. First round really should be BPA

 

I would say there were discussions that we needed a tackle in the height of the Trent hold out. I saw no other position discussed, other than my occasional throwing out the idea about following the Arizona model, and drafting another QB.

 

If there weren't that knee jerk reaction, we wouldn't be extremeskins.

Edited by RandyHolt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

I mean, I would too, who wouldn't.  But finding two safeties with versatile overlapping skills is kind of hard.  Generally, the teams that use interchangeable safeties, play more Cover 2 schemes as that's more forgiving than playing Single High in Cover 1/3.

 

You can also have polar opposite safeties.  Earl Thomas and Kam Chancellor had like no overlapping skillsets.  That's sort of more what we should be looking for.  Landon Collins is more in the Kam Chancellor mold, although he profiles as better in underzones, robber roles, etc.  But Landon Collins would be poorly used if we're trying to drop him into Single High to rotate the FS down to surprise the passing offense.

 

Landon Collins is someone, who while not being an interchangeable safety, he can "interchange" with a linebacker whose sent on a blitz, or he can blitz himself, or he can do normal strong safety-esque things.  That's still valuable.

That is correct, while in Seattle Earl Thomas was purely a FS, but in Baltimore he does both because of all the coverages Don Martindale has in that defense.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wish London Fletcher was 28 years old and he was still on our squad. Great linebacker. Also wish I had a new pair of Nikes.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 1/3/2020 at 1:23 AM, HTTRDynasty said:

Any projection that doesn't have Matt I. as a starter in the new 4-3 is doing it wrong.

 

 

I disagree, but it's a nitpick and a caveat:

 

The term starter on the defensive line is grossly overused. It's the most rotated position in football. Backups get close to as many snaps as starters, and that's when they're not that good. Right now, we have an abundance of studs at the 1/3-Tech spots.

 

I strongly believe Payne should start at the 1 and Allen the 3. That leaves Ioan on the bench. NOT because he's not a great player. But there are two spots, and he's the biggest spark plug of the three of them. He can play the 1 or the 3 in my opinion, and be on the field more snaps than both of the other guys as a "back-up". I'd argue he would flourish in that spot. He'd also keep Payne and Allen relatively crisp, and he'd stay relatively fresh. Settle can also spell a little.

 

I don't think we as fans or the coaches should get too caught up on the starter label. But I do think, if by starter you mean plays a lot, you're on the money. He needs to be on the field. :)

 

EDIT: I can't delete the pic from the damn quote, for the record. I have tried. More than once. On phone. On desktop. On different desktop.

Edited by KDawg
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, wtfskins said:

Believe me

Jack will plug them in to come downhill we could be a force but not if we get rid of these guys.

 


“Believe me”, color me convinced.....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Allen can play DE, cant he?  and Kerrigan played 4-3 in college...

 

I could see Payne, Ionnitus, Settle as your DT rotation with Allen, Sweat, Kerrigan, and Chase Young as DE rotation.

 

Starting?  I think it will be Allen, Payne, Ionnitus, and Sweat.

 

I could see the team moving on from Kerrigan at this point...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, illone said:

Allen can play DE, cant he?  and Kerrigan played 4-3 in college...

 

I could see Payne, Ionnitus, Settle as your DT rotation with Allen, Sweat, Kerrigan, and Chase Young as DE rotation.

 

Starting?  I think it will be Allen, Payne, Ionnitus, and Sweat.

 

I could see the team moving on from Kerrigan at this point...

 

On occassion Allen at end would be fine. But he is a prototypical 3-technique. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Move on from Kerrigan are you guys crazy that guy is a beast he will kick our ass if we let him go.  Let’s keep him til his contract is up.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/3/2020 at 8:26 AM, KDawg said:

 

The term starter on the defensive line is grossly overused. It's the most rotated position in football. Backups get close to as many snaps as starters, and that's when they're not that good. Right now, we have an abundance of studs at the 1/3-Tech spots.

 

agree with you 100%.  We should be focusing more on snaps played than starts.  Looking at the snap numbers for the delay good defensive lines the past several years, it's clear that the ideal number for all but the Aaron Donalds of the world is somewhere between 450 and 600 for a season.  That means your guys are staying fresh and your defense is getting off the field.  Look at our bottom ranked rush defense snap counts and Payne and Allen are well over 700 and Io is almost 900.  Third most in the league in total snaps.  That is way too many, and speaks directly to why our rush d struggled and why we got lower quality reps from them than we are accustomed too.

 

The high workload also means we got fewer special teams snaps from Allen and Payne than other teams get from their DLs.

 

If the defense plays well, we should be getting all three of those guys in the 500 snap range and Settle should be at 400.  It doesn't really matter who starts or who plays where, except that Allen should not play zero or one technique on short leverage downs.  The other guys can play each spot on the line.  Just have to make sure our rotation is smart and that we've got all of the packages we need to keep fresh legs on the field as much as possible.  We really should be one of the best run defenses in the NFL, not the worst.  Hopefully the new staff runs a better defense.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/2/2020 at 12:19 PM, stevemcqueen1 said:

Re: Keim's tweet about Kerrigan, he feels like a luxury if we draft Chase Young.  It'd be nice to have a third edge rusher whose better than Ryan Anderson, so we could keep the snap counts of all of them from climbing too high.

 

But given that he'll be an expiring contract, that kind of depth is for a team with real superbowl aspirations.  I don't see a 49ers-esque defensive turnaround coming for next season, they have way more really good defensive backs than us and more offensive line talent.  So getting a draft pick for Kerrigan instead of watching him walk for nothing after a season that will probably top out at 7 or 8 wins would be nice.

 

I'd always assumed we'd hold onto him for too long, given our managerial tendencies, but with new management, maybe that isn't so.  I don't see us getting that much for Kerrigan. What do you think his value is?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/3/2020 at 10:39 AM, illone said:

Allen can play DE, cant he?  and Kerrigan played 4-3 in college...

 

I could see Payne, Ionnitus, Settle as your DT rotation with Allen, Sweat, Kerrigan, and Chase Young as DE rotation.

 

Starting?  I think it will be Allen, Payne, Ionnitus, and Sweat.

 

I could see the team moving on from Kerrigan at this point...

 

I could maybe see Allen as a possible LDE on obvious run downs but that's it. I watched a bunch of his game cutups before and after we drafted him. Saban moves guys around a lot so there were times when I watched Allen play DE in a 4-3 look.......and he kinda sucked at it. Very mediocre compared to when he was inside. Decent at setting the edge but very little pass rush to speak of. He just doesn't have the flexibility to bend the edge, speed or burst to get around decent Tackles, and he doesn't really have the length to keep a good Tackle's hands off of him. IMO it's basically a waste to put him there. Dude is a straight up pure 3 tech. I'd start Sweat over him at LDE in a 4-3. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

So after letting things sink in a little, here would be my lineup (it's not all that different from my original, I'm also not assuming who we draft)

 

DE: Sweat, Orchard

DE: Kerrigan, Anderson

1-Tech: Payne

3-Tech: Allen

MIKE: Holcomb (off the field in NICKEL looks)

SAM: Foster/Anderson when Foster inevitably gets hurt

WILL: Dion-Hamilton

CB: Dunbar

CB: Moreau

NICKEL: Moreland

FS: Apke

SS: Collins

 

Ioan would spell both the 1/3 Tech spots and likely wind up with more or similar snaps to the two "starters". Will once again be one of our better defensive players due to his flexibility. Though we could use another large body 1-technique guy to spell Payne. 

 

Ioan had 839 snaps as a DL this season. That's 10th in the NFL. Payne 766. Allen 730.  Their % of defensive snaps, though, isn't all that crazy. They were on the field too much. The defense will be aided by a good offense. Significantly so. 

 

Now, looking at this I see significant weakness at linebacker, FS and corner, which we knew. 

 

Anderson right now is penciled in as a DE, but if the team drafts Young, he likely moves to a 7-tech/OLB role. 

 

Dunbar plays in ~12 games/season. Not awful. But depth is a concern. And really, another starting caliber corner where Moreau is pushed to a backup role (and likely to play in place of Dunbar) is an ideal situation.

 

Free safety is the actual worst single position of this group. I have no faith in Apke or Nicholson. Maybe they prove me wrong. 

 

SDH is a TOTAL wildcard. Good in coverage, doesn't attack downhill very well in the run game, tackles well, excellent instincts. Holcomb is not good in coverage, doesn't attack downhill, but he's a smart player who gets to the ball (down the field more than I'd like, but this could be remedied from playing in Del Rio/Rivera's 4-3 MIKE spot), tackles well. Foster I 100% do not count on at all. Anderson in coverage is a nightmare.

 

SLIGHTLY CONTROVERSIAL:

As far as the draft goes: I think this team drafts Chase Young. He's a tremendous player who can change a game. He will be the BPA at our pick unless Cincy takes him. I do not, under any circumstances, advocate passing on him if he's available. But part of me kind of wants Cincy to take him. Forgetting the possibility of a trade back, or a quarterback, That leaves us with Simmons or Okudah as the BPA... And both of them fill a significant need.

 

Our depth at the DE position is enough to be relatively successful with them rushing more.

 

So, to sum it up:

 

Assuming Cincy takes Burrows, my draft board looks like this:

 

1. Chase Young

2. Isaiah Simmons

2b. Okudah

 

I kind of want Cincy to pull the trigger on Young, though. NOT THAT I DON'T WANT HIM, he changes games by his presence alone and it's extremely difficult to pass on a pass rusher of his caliber... So you absolutely do not pass on him. But I think we get a stud at 2 regardless.

 

Edited by KDawg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to laugh when anyone even listens to the thoughts of the Junkies as opposed to the views & plans from a successful coach like Del Rio.  I have confidence that this guy will figure it out.  How?  Who the hell knows - that is why they are paid & we are fans.

 

Remember Rivera & Del Rio don't necessarily have loyalty to the current group of players.  If they feel changes need to be made I am sure that they will make them moving fwd. The fact is the previous coaches using various schemes failed miserably & I don't believe that it was simply a matter of lacking talent on D.  I also have to laugh at folks here who seem to be in such a rush to get rid of Jon Allen.  Please - let's see how this D plays next season before jumping to rash conclusions like that one.

 

And again I would assume that the plan is to rebuild this over the course of the next several years & not simply to have everything in place by 2020.  As mentioned by others they should show some improvement on D next season (to the pt of being competitive in most games), but this will not be the final product.  If needed they can get standout CBs and safeties in 2021.  I am not sure how this D will improve over the next few seasons, but I have total faith in Del Rio & don't give a damn about opposing viewpoints from couch potatoes who are fortunate to have a platform on talk radio.  Time will tell.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/3/2020 at 1:10 PM, wtfskins said:

Move on from Kerrigan are you guys crazy that guy is a beast he will kick our ass if we let him go.  Let’s keep him til his contract is up.  

 

 

Im actually all for keeping Kerrigan, but not at the number he's due this year.  He's got an $11.7 mil cap hit.  I would rather renegotiate that and get to something like $14mil over the next 2 years, $7 mil guaranteed, and let Kerrigan rotate in at DE in passing situations. 

 

Just as a reference, he's got a $0 dead cap number so it costs us nothing to move on.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't mind bring back Zach Brown. We need a ton of linebackers

 

If we draft Chase Young we should  take a page from the eagles regarding having a stacked D Line -  keep them all fresh and make them your team identity. Kerrigan is running on fumes but he may be able to put up 10+ sacks as a situational pass rusher.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

 

Great idea here & some other good ideas in this thread.  Folks have to resist the urge to badmouth current players & write them off.  It may be a matter of thing being used incorrectly by Manusky & others & not having the rt mix of players. Can't wait to see how these players will be used in the coming season perhaps mixed in with a few new players.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well if hamilton is indeed best set up for Will then we might get an all Alabama LB core, him on one side, Anderson on the other and Foster in the middle

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, carex said:

well if hamilton is indeed best set up for Will then we might get an all Alabama LB core, him on one side, Anderson on the other and Foster in the middle

 

I have a hard time seeing Foster as a MIKE from the mental side. Calling plays and getting guys into position is one of the jobs of the MIKE backer and Foster has never been in that position. It was SDH at Bama who was the brains of the operation and did all of that. Foster was the instinctive play maker who was always flying to the ball. I have no doubt he could do it physically, but I'm just not sure he has enough experience on the mental side of it to be successful at that position. I could certainly be wrong though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.