Welp...have we seen enough..?

[Cooleyfan1993]

Just now, SoCalSkins said:

no in that scenario he was never a bust.

So IF that scenario were to happen, and he’s then not a bust, that goes entirely against your claim that it is “irrelevant when the label is attached”. 

[bakedtater1]

5 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

So what you’re saying is that even if he wins Us a super bowl or two, and takes us to the playoffs more often than not, that he’ll still be a bust since he was called a bust after two starts? You know how silly that logic is, right? I bet colts fans were calling manning a bust after throwing all those interceptions in his rookie year. Yet do people call him a bust still, years later? No.

First of all, that was year 1 of Jay Gruden, that has zero to do with shanahan 😂😂😂 

 

and that wasn’t his first start. His first start was against the browns in 2012. 

Well Shanahan drafted kirk to rub it in the snyders face...and yes your right Kirk's first start was in Cleveland where the skins escaped with a win thanks to the running game...alot of good memories with kirk here..and that's all I'm saying lol..good memories.

[Cooleyfan1993]

Just now, bakedtater1 said:

Well Shanahan drafted kirk to rub it in the snyders face...and yes your right Kirk's first start was in Cleveland where the skins escaped with a win thanks to the running game...alot of good memories with kirk here..and that's all I'm saying lol..good memories.

“Escaped with a win”? We DESTROYED the browns. That’s very different than “escaping with a win”.

[SoCalSkins]

6 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

So IF that scenario were to happen, and he’s then not a bust, that goes entirely against your claim that it is “irrelevant when the label is attached”. 

You are a bust or you are not a bust. I would be wrong for claiming he was a bust. My point being that if you call him a bust 12 to 36 months from now he would be a bust from the moment he was drafted. 
 

I gave you pretty good reasoning why I believe he is a bust and I don’t need to see another snap to be certain. History and stats are on my side. It’s not even close. The guy is cartoonishly bad. An SNL skit of what a bust is. You want more information to draw the same conclusion. However, that’s about you and what you want to see doesn’t change the underlying fact he’s a bust at this very moment.

[Cooleyfan1993]

Just now, SoCalSkins said:

You are a bust or you are not a bust. I would be wrong for claiming he was a bust. My point being that if you call him a bust 12 to 36 months from now he would be a bust from the moment he was drafted. 

That goes ENTIRELY against the scenario on if he leads us to playoff seasons and Super Bowls. How are you not getting this? 

 

You’re saying “if you call him a bust 12-36 months from now, he will be a bust from the moment he was drafted”, while at the same time, saying he would then NOT be a bust at the same time, if he wins us Super Bowls. 

 

This is the SILLIEST argument I’ve ever had, and i dont even know why I’m still having it. You’re obviously never going to change your mind, no matter what the guy does, so there’s zero point 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

[SoCalSkins]

He is not going to do that. It’s a fantasy. He is a bust. Like every other Redskin QB drafted in the first round since 1970.

 

You want to have your fan fiction? Play madden and win the super bowl with him because in real life he is a bust. 

[bakedtater1]

11 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

“Escaped with a win”? We DESTROYED the browns. That’s very different than “escaping with a win”.

Huh...I don't remember destroying them..maybe its worth a Google lol

[Cooleyfan1993]

Just now, bakedtater1 said:

Huh...I don't remember destroying them..maybe its worth a Google lol

Score was 38-21. And it wasn’t even as close as the score indicates. 

2 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

He is not going to do that. It’s a fantasy. He is a bust. Like every other Redskin QB drafted in the first round since 1970.

 

You want to have your fan fiction? Play madden and win the super bowl with him because in real life he is a bust. 

Yes, i agree he will most likely not do any of what i listed. But IF he (somehow) ends up winning us games in these next two seasons and taking us to the playoffs, you agree you will say you were wrong, right? 

[SoCalSkins]

3 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Score was 38-21. And it wasn’t even as close as the score indicates. 

Yes, i agree he will most likely not do any of what i listed. But IF he (somehow) ends up winning us games in these next two seasons and taking us to the playoffs, you agree you will say you were wrong, right? 

Yes I will absolutely admit I was completely wrong and you all should ridicule me. However, by the same token, don’t be reluctant to write a player off early in the future when it goes the way I am claiming...

[SkinsFTW]

2 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:

 

He is going to be destroyed and he will never recover. He has no future in the NFL that’s without a doubt, hopefully he can live out the rest of his life out of football without too much PTSD. Poor guy.

 

[KDawg]

8 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:

Yes I will absolutely admit I was completely wrong and you all should ridicule me. However, by the same token, don’t be reluctant to write a player off early in the future when it goes the way I am claiming...

 

From a personal point of view, I have no issues with your general take - Haskins doesn't seem like he has it. My personal problem with your take is that you are in such a rush to declare it and get it out there and continually repeat the same thing over and over - which I understand to a degree - but what I don't understand is: Why?

 

Why be hasty with this? Why not let him continue to play and see if he can show some improvement? Why not give him the opportunity to fix his mistakes? The team is done. He is getting a lot of football lessons and let's not forget, baptism by fire in terms of character lessons. 

 

He certainly looks like a bust, but what's the rush? 

[SoCalSkins]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

From a personal point of view, I have no issues with your general take - Haskins doesn't seem like he has it. My personal problem with your take is that you are in such a rush to declare it and get it out there and continually repeat the same thing over and over - which I understand to a degree - but what I don't understand is: Why?

 

Why be hasty with this? Why not let him continue to play and see if he can show some improvement? Why not give him the opportunity to fix his mistakes? The team is done. He is getting a lot of football lessons and let's not forget, baptism by fire in terms of character lessons. 

 

He certainly looks like a bust, but what's the rush? 

Because the sunk cost fallacy has already started and we are going to waste time on him beyond this year. Which means a scrub coach like Zorn. No legitimate coach will take the job to be tied to this bust. None (maybe Urban Meyer if you consider him a legit NFL coach), If there is a fan revolt and he is booed rest of the year in the stadium, it will force Bruce and Dan’s hand. In the other thread you basically said his upside is Jason Campbell. I have not interest in that personally. I want to get back to winning and getting there as fast as possible. Which means a competent coach and making brutal player evaluations regardless of round picked and whether it was a Dan pick or not.
 

I don’t want to hear about his flashes because he threw for some yards in garbage time with the game having been decided far earlier. The excuses for his play are already piling up. The kid sucks at NFL football. Probably the worst QB to ever start for the Redskins in the modern era since 1970. He’s not going to improve from that to a  franchise player. It’s not possible: Time to end the fantasy. You don’t improve a team by overvaluing you’re assets and pretending that your fantasy of what a player will be will come to fruition. This is a performance based business with careers averaging less than 3 years. You don’t perform you don’t play. In no meritocracy is that dude on a roster as a starter or second string.

 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, SoCalSkins said:

Because the sunk cost fallacy has already started and we are going to waste time on him beyond this year. Which means a scrub coach like Zorn. No legitimate coach will take the job to be tied to this bust. None (maybe Urban Meyer if you consider him a legit NFL coach), If there is a fan revolt and he is booed rest of the year in the stadium, it will force Bruce and Dan’s hand. In the other thread you basically said his upside is Jason Campbell. I have not interest in that personally. I want to get back to winning and getting there as fast as possible. Which means a competent coach and making brutal player evaluations regardless of round picked and whether it was a Dan pick or not.
 

I don’t want to hear about his flashes because he threw for some yards in garbage time with the game having been decided far earlier. The excuses for his play are already piling up. The kid sucks at NFL football. Probably the worst QB to ever start for the Redskins in the modern era since 1970. He’s not going to improve from that to a  franchise player. It’s not possible: Time to end the fantasy. You don’t improve a team by overvaluing you’re assets and pretending that your fantasy of what a player will be will come to fruition. This is a performance based business with careers averaging less than 3 years. You don’t perform you don’t play. In no meritocracy is that dude on a roster as a starter or second string.

 

 

But the sunk cost fallacy can wait until after giving him the rest of this season, can't it? 

 

I agree - IF Haskins continues down the path he is on - IF the Skins hire a coach specifically for Haskins anyways, we have a major problem. 

 

But those are still ifs. Granted, with this franchise those ifs are fairly likely. But they are still not absolutes.

 

Priorities should be:

 

1) Player evaluation at all positions

2) New GM (:ols:) - Hired for his ability to build a franchise, not a stadium.

3) New HC (hired for his ability to build a team, not a single player)

4) Setting a plan on free agency/draft

5) Executing it.

 

Right now, Haskins playing is giving everyone a full sample size of datum. 

[NoCalMike]

Alex Smith was thought of as a bust for at least the first 3-4 seasons of his career.  Now you could make the argument that because he was taken #1 overall and is not a "difference maker" at the QB position, that he still technically is a bust as far as value vs. where he was drafted, but he still turned out to be a solid NFL QB, it took him awhile, it took time for the 49ers to build a team around them, they went threw a couple coaches before Harbaugh was hired and seemed to put in an offense that made everything click.

 

I am not making any kind of judgement or statement that Haskins will take this same route and turn into a solid QB, just saying that it is way too early to make a final judgement about a QB that was known not to be NFL-ready when he was drafted, yet because the team has been so awful, he's been thrust into the starting QB role anyway. 

[HTTRDynasty]

Wonder if the fanbases "saw enough" from these QB's in their first starts to declare them busts.

 

Alex Smith

 

Drafted: No. 1 overall by the San Francisco 49ers in 2005.

First start: Loss (28-3) to the Colts in Week 5 of 2005; 9 of 23 (39.1 percent) for 74 yards, zero touchdowns, four interceptions, five sacks and a passer rating of 8.5.

Smith is very smart, but it took time for that to translate to the NFL gridiron. He had a horrifically bad rookie year, taking 29 sacks and throwing 11 picks in just nine games (seven starts) while posting a sub-40 passer rating four times. Smith didn't find the end zone until the final game of the season, a 20-17 win over Houston. He seemed reluctant to throw downfield and didn't break out of checkdown mode for years.

It wasn't that Smith, who was neck and neck with Aaron Rodgers in my pre-draft scouting as a prospect, lacked talent. I think a key factor was that he just didn't get as lucky as other guys did in terms of the kind of coaching he received as a rookie. When Jim Harbaugh arrived in 2011, he turned Smith into a good quarterback, and the signal-caller has continued to thrive with the Chiefs under Andy Reid. Just look at his numbers since '11: 38-15-1 record with a TD-to-INT ratio of 71:23.

 

Troy Aikman

 

Drafted: No. 1 overall by the Dallas Cowboys in 1989.

First start: Loss (28-0) to the Saints in Week 1 of 1989; 17 of 35 (48.6 percent) for 180 yards, zero touchdowns, two interceptions, two sacks and a passer rating of 40.2.

Aikman -- whom I helped scout and draft -- was thrown right into the mix as a rookie. While he didn't seem lost or overwhelmed at all in that first game, he finished his first season -- which was interrupted by a broken finger that cost him five games -- with nine touchdowns against 18 interceptions while averaging just 5.9 yards per pass. Those are not very good numbers. In fact, it wasn't until his third year in the NFL that he managed to throw more touchdowns (11) than picks (10).

 

So what -- aside from playing for a team that finished 1-15 a year after going 3-13 -- held Aikman back in that first start and the rest of Year 1? I think, in general, a lot of rookie quarterbacks are surprised by the complexity of the game at the pro level and the sophistication of their opponents -- how well people disguise coverages and how effectively they exploit weaknesses. Even while he struggled, though, Aikman still threw a big ball and showed excellent accuracy. Norv Turner -- Aikman's offensive coordinator from 1991 to 1993 -- will tell you he's never seen a quarterback as accurate as this guy.

 

John Elway

 

Drafted: No. 1 overall by the Baltimore Colts in 1983 (traded to Denver Broncos).

First start: Win (14-10) over the Steelers in Week 1 of 1983; 1 of 8 (12.5 percent) for 14 yards, zero touchdowns, one interception, four sacks and a passer rating of 0.

Elway's debut was marred by an elbow injury that forced him out of the game, but his second start (9 of 21 for 106 yards, zero touchdowns and three sacks) wasn't much better. He went on to have a relatively rough rookie season -- 7:14 TD-to-INT ratio and 28 sacks in 11 games -- in which he was benched after three consecutive losses. But he also was part of a team that made the playoffs that year, and he ended up leading the Broncos to three Super Bowl appearances, five playoff berths and six winning seasons over the next nine years. Still, in many ways, the jury was still out on the quarterback, who threw just one more touchdown pass (158) than he did picks (157) from 1983 to 1992. He was kind of like a wild colt, so to speak, in that he would run around and scramble somewhat recklessly and make risky throws across his body.

 

In 1993, he seemed to turn a corner, and he really took off in 1995, when Mike Shanahan -- who spent two previous stints on Denver's staff during Elway's career -- became the Broncos' head coach. In the final four years of his career, Elway posted a record of 43-16, threw 101 touchdown passes against 49 picks and, of course, won two Super Bowls.

 

Peyton Manning

 

Drafted: No. 1 overall by the Indianapolis Colts in 1998.

First start: Loss (24-15) to the Dolphins in Week 1 of 1998; 21 of 37 (56.8 percent) for 302 yards, one touchdown, three interceptions, four sacks and a passer rating of 58.6.

Manning has, of course, become one of the premier quarterbacks in the game, earning 13 Pro Bowlnods and five MVP awards in 14 years with the Colts and two-plus years with the Denver Broncos. And though he set what was then a rookie record with 3,739 yards, he also went 3-13 in his first year with Indy -- and believe me when I tell you that a lot of people were asking whether he was good enough to hack it. In fact, after a less-than-stellar performance in a Week 5 victory over Ryan Leaf's Chargers that season, there were even some folks hollering that Indy should've taken Leaf instead of Manning with the first overall pick in the 1998 NFL Draft. 

 

That Manning -- who was very well coached at Tennessee and has such a great understanding of the game -- stumbled out of the gate like that just illustrates how hard it is to start right away as a rookie, especially with the competitive balance being so great in the NFL. Of course, Manning was a tireless worker even then, and, with the help of assistant Tom Moore, grew into the all-time talent we know today.

 

Steve Young

Drafted: No. 1 by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in the 1984 supplemental draft.

First start: Win (19-16, OT) over the Lions in Week 12 of 1985; 16 of 27 (59.3 percent) for 167 yards, zero touchdowns, zero interceptions, six sacks and a passer rating of 77.2; 10 carries for 60 yards.

 

Young wasn't exactly a rookie when he entered the NFL, having spent two years with the Los Angeles Express of the USFL before going to Tampa Bay. Perhaps Young became used to the lesser competition he saw in his first pro league, because he struggled with the Bucs, compiling a record of 3-16 as a starter while throwing nearly twice as many interceptions (21) as he did touchdown passes (11). Tampa Bay shipped him to San Francisco for a second- and a fourth-round pick in 1987 -- laying the groundwork for his career to take off into the stratosphere. 

 

Even that took time, of course, as Joe Montana was entrenched at quarterback when Young joined the Niners. But ultimately, coach Bill Walsh and his West Coast system shaped Young into the man who won two MVP awards and helped San Francisco score the third-most points in Super Bowl history in a 49-26 win over San Diego.

[SoCalSkins]

On what planet does the garbage mechanics, crappy attitude. Ineptitude and overall suckage despite having training wheels on the play calling turn into competent play? The guy is putridly bad not run of the mill bad like others before him. It’s cartoonishly outlandish. If you wanted someone to overact as a bust, their performance would be identical to Haskins. He is so horrible it’s starting to cross over into comedy.
 

It’s laughable to me that any of you think that out of all the QBs that have been busts here, your unicorn is Haskins. That somehow he will overcome complete incompetence on every level from preparation to leadership and overall play and will  emerge as a competent player or franchise player. He won’t. Write it in stone.  Give up your unfounded optimism. You have seen this since 1993. Get real. You guys are smarter than that.

[UK Skins]

I thought he looked a lot better against the Jets. He is still throwing off his back-foot or jumping or whatever is wrong with his delivery but there was some promise I thought. I said during the game his first three plays were identical, not sure if that was awful play-calling or he took the check-down each time but I was glad to see him air it out a bit. The play with the McLaurin catch which was called back for holding looked awesome. We knew he was raw when he was drafted and he is going to need time, but hopefully with the remaining games and then a good off-season he could still be what we are all looking for. Then we don't have to draft QB again 🙂

[NoCalMike]

6 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

It’s laughable to me that any of you think that out of all the QBs that have been busts here, your unicorn is Haskins. That somehow he will overcome complete incompetence on every level from preparation to leadership and overall play and will  emerge as a competent player or franchise player. He won’t. Write it in stone.  Give up your unfounded optimism. You have seen this since 1993. Get real. You guys are smarter than that.

 

Not sure who this is specifically addressed to, but I think I fall into Camp #3 which is simply saying......We don't know yet.

[SoCalSkins]

2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

Not sure who this is specifically addressed to, but I think I fall into Camp #3 which is simply saying......We don't know yet.

 

We do know. He is a bust. Period. You want more information to confirm it. That's your issue. Doesn't change the fact he is a bust.

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

On what planet does the garbage mechanics, crappy attitude. Ineptitude and overall suckage despite having training wheels on the play calling turn into competent play? The guy is putridly bad not run of the mill bad like others before him. It’s cartoonishly outlandish. If you wanted someone to overact as a bust, their performance would be identical to Haskins. He is so horrible it’s starting to cross over into comedy.
 

It’s laughable to me that any of you think that out of all the QBs that have been busts here, your unicorn is Haskins. That somehow he will overcome complete incompetence on every level from preparation to leadership and overall play and will  emerge as a competent player or franchise player. He won’t. Write it in stone.  Give up your unfounded optimism. You have seen this since 1993. Get real. You guys are smarter than that.

 

I get the feeling this is aimed at me, based on the fact you and I are conversing.

 

He's certainly not "my unicorn". Just hastily reacting now doesn't help us at all. Whereas by playing it out, it aids our decision. Letting him play could be as simple as a PR move to get the fan base behind changing quarterbacks. It could also be based on actual development. See what he can do. Put film on him. Let smart football people evaluate him. Let the new GM  and new HC make a decision on him based on film. They won't see him in practice. So film is their spot.

 

Ideally, if he continues to play like he is the team can do a few things... 1) trade him to a team offering a ton or 2) keep him. Let him sit as an inactive 3rd QB next season. Let him develop. See if he becomes a guy. In the meantime, they'd need a real quarterback to take the reigns, however. Treat him like a 4th round or later. 

 

There's a lot of scenarios that can play out. Again, I don't disagree that he is quickly heading towards a bust. But let it play out is all I'm saying.

[SoCalSkins]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I get the feeling this is aimed at me, based on the fact you and I are conversing.

 

He's certainly not "my unicorn". Just hastily reacting now doesn't help us at all. Whereas by playing it out, it aids our decision. Letting him play could be as simple as a PR move to get the fan base behind changing quarterbacks. It could also be based on actual development. See what he can do. Put film on him. Let smart football people evaluate him. Let the new GM  and new HC make a decision on him based on film. They won't see him in practice. So film is their spot.

 

Ideally, if he continues to play like he is the team can do a few things... 1) trade him to a team offering a ton or 2) keep him. Let him sit as an inactive 3rd QB next season. Let him develop. See if he becomes a guy. In the meantime, they'd need a real quarterback to take the reigns, however. Treat him like a 4th round or later. 

 

There's a lot of scenarios that can play out. Again, I don't disagree that he is quickly heading towards a bust. But let it play out is all I'm saying.

 

I threw it out generally. If you think it applies to you it does. Same for everyone else. Lol. 

 

The one great thing about being incompetent as an organization is our assets are not necessarily seen as broken, possibly just mismanaged. So we might find a sucker stupid enough to trade for him. I agree.

 

 

[KDawg]

Just now, SoCalSkins said:

 

I threw out generally. If you think it applies to you it does. Same for everyone else. Lol. 

 

The one great thing about being incompetent as an organization is our assets are not necessarily seen as broken, possibly just mismanaged. So we might find a sucker stupid enough to trade for him. I agree.

 

I don't think it does. I actually think that post was wildly off-base and wanted to clarify my position. 

[SoCalSkins]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I don't think it does. I actually think that post was wildly off-base and wanted to clarify my position. 

 

You claimed Jason Campbell is a good QB. Yesterday! There is nothing more wildly off-base bro! And you are generally one of the smart ones. That was more of a surprise to me than Haskins being a bust. I had greater expectations of you!

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

 

You claimed Jason Campbell is a good QB. Yesterday! There is nothing more wildly off-base bro! And you are generally one of the smart ones. That was more of a surprise to me than Haskins being a bust. I had greater expectations of you!

 

Wait, what?

 

 

 

I said he was one of the better QBs we've had here recently, and even a caveat that isn't setting the bar very high at all. I think I may have used the word scary? Not sure. And in context it was saying that was Haskins CEILING. Like as high as he could go with mechanical improvements.

 

You're a trip, man. 

 

 

[Unbias]

12 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

And yes I am enjoying seeing all those who were saying "ya crowder and p smith needs to go" eating crow now 

 

Actually in retrospect we have been fairly good at drafting. It's our culture that disallows players to reach their potential. 

 

That should give no one comfort because it's way worse.