JoggingGod

In what way is Kyle Smith GM material

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On 11/3/2019 at 8:48 PM, Thinking Skins said:

The problem with Kyle is that he's improved our drafts from being in the D/F range to being in probably a C+/B- range. We are good at getting depth guys and having a full 53 that's not overly lapping in gaps, but not forming a strong unit or a strong team. Our DL was supposed to be dominant but its just OK. Before Kyle we'd get a first rounder who was generally a good pick and then almost nothing, save a special teamer here or there. Now we're getting constant contributions from 6th and 7th rounders but its not like its stuff that's going to take us to the playoffs. Its stuff that says, "oh he's a good center who in a re-draft may be a 4th rounder". 

 

And the thing real bad thing is that we've been in such a draft drought that we're calling these mediocre drafts as great.

 

I still think he's the best guy for the job, but he's not the best guy in the league or anything like that. 

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here per say, but I think there are a lot of additional factors we, as fans, can’t see/know.  How often has Kyle been overriden?  When he was, who did he want instead and how have they performed?  Are any of his picks underperforming due to coaching issues?  How many of his guys have developed and/or performed well?  How many have been slowed by injury (this point goes both ways of course).
 

A competent FO should have a book on all of their scouts and decision-makers to be able to dissect their evaluation ability.  
 

Then they need to factor in personality/character.  Does he work well with others?  Does he communicate well?  Do colleagues respect/trust him?  Does he have (good) relationships around the league?  And of course, if they were to interview him for the position, does he have a long term plan in mind?

 

I have no problem with posters saying he hasn’t shown them enough to earn the job, just like I have no problem with others saying he’s got to be better than Allen.  However, to the former group, I would say it’s impossible for us to judge him as outsiders.  To the latter group, they’re absolutely right, but that bar can’t be much lower.  
 

So, I’d take Smith in a heartbeat if Allen was removed from power, but I’m not sure if he’s the answer (as in, I literally have no idea).  A competent FO should have the answer to all of the above already.  Our FO though?  Who knows, but I’m almost certain they **** it up.  
 

My 2 cents anyway.  

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1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

A competent FO should have a book on all of their scouts and decision-makers to be able to dissect their evaluation ability.  

This is something I've been saying for a while. My point way back in the day when I was pro-Bruce was that it didn't matter so much about the title "GM" and stuff because as long as we had good scouts and were listening to our scouts, and kept a book on our scouts, the organization could (?would?) improve. 

 

I still believe that to an extent, but my problem with Bruce is outside of the FO stuff,  the shenanigans and the publicity stunts, the revenge seeking stuff, the stuff not in the best interest of the team.

 

And honestly thats something we don't know about Kyle either. Lombardi was on the Junkies this morning and he brought up an idea of how to fix the FO if he was hired. I don't know exactly what he was calling for because it initially sounded like he wanted a firing of everybody, but then it seemed like just a set of training classes that taught them what a winning culture is.

 

But there's something that Doc seems to focus on. We have so much instability and backstabbing going on in this culture that you have to ask yourself how can a person with morals and decency work here? And beyond that, if they're promoted to the lead dog, what confidence do we have that they'll do it any differently? Cal is doing things different than Gruden, but why couldn't the two work together? And how is the chemistry with KOC? So I'm forced to question what the relationship between Kyle and Allen is? Kyle and Williams? Kyle and Snyder? And what do they say/do when the team embarrasses themselves again? Because, as representatives of the organization, how can they hold their head up high after some of the things going on? 

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Kyle may be the white speck on top of this pile of crap, but when you look closely it is still just crap.  I'm for completely cleaning house.

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@Thinking Skins

 

No idea/opinion on Lombardi, though if that’s all he’s got... he sounds like an idiot, lol.

 

Yeah, no idea about the relationships you mention/question, and no idea if Smith would change things culturally.  Part of me thinks he has to be an improvement in that I can’t see him having Allen’s level of ego, stubbornness, vindictiveness, but who knows.  I somewhat addressed the idea of how different is Smith when I mentioned you’d want to look at how he is perceived by his colleagues. Obviously you’d be looking for superlatives rather than “he’s a good guy” or “he’s smart”.  
 

Frankly, I don’t know how it would work anyway in terms of Snyder conducting a search.  Can’t imagine putting himself in charge and I tend to doubt he has a trusted lackey beyond Bruce.  Some have mentioned an outside group handling the search and I think that makes total sense.  I’d hope they wouldn’t just write off Smith without vetting him first, but I’d also be happy to go outside the org.  The main reason I’d want Smith to at least be considered is the flip side of your point about how tainted might he be.  Namely, that he has seen the issues firsthand and therefore might have a better grasp of what needs to be changed.  In some ways, I think we’re seeing a somewhat parallel situation with Callahan replacing Gruden (though this is a thorny point as we see in GHH’s thread).  
 

As to how someone in this org can hold their head high... it’s a good point.  With only 32 teams in the league, and therefore very limited spots, I can understand sticking somewhere to build your resume and relationships, even if you see disfunction running rampant.  It’s a risk to be associated with said disfunction, but it’s also a risk to cut ties and hope to latch on elsewhere.  I think Allen, somewhat ironically, provides cover to those working under him.  If you manage to shine a bit, or at least look competent, and/or build your reputation and relationships to some degree, maybe you parlay your job into a more preferable one down the road.  I could maybe argue the proof is in the pudding when you look at Schneider, McVay, Shanahan, Lafluer(sp?), etc.  

 

To be clear, this is not me arguing for Smith to be promoted.  To me, giving him the GM role would be the minimum type of change I’d like to see (along with Allen being fired, because I don’t trust him if he’s just moved to a pure Team President role).  It might be a good move for the team, or it might be a minuscule step in the right direction and hardly change much of anything.  I’d far prefer a third party conducting an outright search.  If Smith is somehow at the top of their list, so be it.  

Edited by skinny21
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Skkkkeeeeeerrrrddddd!!!!

Pump the mother****in breaks!!!! Kyle is the son of A.J. Smith....a long time friend of Bruce Allen. This is how Kyle got the ****ing job in the first place. Its also the reason for this bull**** ass narrative about Kyle being the next best thing since hemp in the first ****ing place. I don't want one single remnant of Bruce in the building after his ass is gone. Stop it!!!

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, joeken24 said:

Skkkkeeeeeerrrrddddd!!!!

Pump the mother****in breaks!!!! Kyle is the son of A.J. Smith....a long time friend of Bruce Allen. This is how Kyle got the ****ing job in the first place. Its also the reason for this bull**** ass narrative about Kyle being the next best thing since hemp in the first ****ing place. I don't want one single remnant of Bruce in the building after his ass is gone. Stop it!!!

 

 

 

Yup...only fools are believing kyle smith hype...this isnt a mcvay shanahan situation two people brought here by others than bruce. Kyle Smith has shown me nothing and needs to be gutted along with anyone else associated with bruce allen, what are his accolades? We have one late rounder doing work in how many years?? Not good enough please leave...

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21 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

Yup...only fools are believing kyle smith hype...this isnt a mcvay shanahan situation two people brought here by others than bruce. Kyle Smith has shown me nothing and needs to be gutted along with anyone else associated with bruce allen, what are his accolades? We have one late rounder doing work in how many years?? Not good enough please leave...

That's still better than Bruce and Vinny united!

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6 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

That's still better than Bruce and Vinny united!

I guess thats somewhat correct i dont know how we got stuck with such losers for so long

 

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Smith is probably one of the more capable people over in Ashburn. But IMO I really don't care. Everyone needs to go. We need a complete and total reboot.

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9 hours ago, Alexa said:

Smith is probably one of the more capable people over in Ashburn. But IMO I really don't care. Everyone needs to go. We need a complete and total reboot.

Smith is apparently adequate in the position he currently holds. You don't know if he know anything about maneuvering salaries, negotiating contracts, dealing with agents, dealing with the media, dealing with Dan and the public, dealing with season GMs for trades, etc. The only thing out on Kyle is a narrative.

So yes, you're right......total reboot.

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13 hours ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

I guess thats somewhat correct i dont know how we got stuck with such losers for so long

 

 

I didn't know that it was a secret but here is the answer

 

_dev_pubsys_images_1290037123_m_cover_il

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Probably not cool to post an image that the man himself sued a newspaper over and called anti-Semitic, @SkinsFTW.

 

We have tons of reasons to feel a personal burning hatred for the man, so don't take it as a rebuke in that way. I just don't think we need to be using that image. 

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On 11/5/2019 at 7:59 AM, skinny21 said:

As to how someone in this org can hold their head high... it’s a good point.  With only 32 teams in the league, and therefore very limited spots, I can understand sticking somewhere to build your resume and relationships, even if you see disfunction running rampant.  It’s a risk to be associated with said disfunction, but it’s also a risk to cut ties and hope to latch on elsewhere.  I think Allen, somewhat ironically, provides cover to those working under him.  If you manage to shine a bit, or at least look competent, and/or build your reputation and relationships to some degree, maybe you parlay your job into a more preferable one down the road.  I could maybe argue the proof is in the pudding when you look at Schneider, McVay, Shanahan, Lafluer(sp?), etc.  

 

Yeah, this is kinda what I hold onto. I know that (again comparing this to grad school) I REALLY wanted a PhD. But in order to do so I had to work with someone who already had a PhD, and worked in an area I was interested in. Those two were MUST HAVES. The first, I couldn't get a PhD without. The second, I would probably quit before graduating. I thought a third was that I have to "like" the person. But I really tested that theory with one guy I was thinking of working with. I saw how brilliant and how he could do math and it was inspiring. But I also saw how he treated people, particularly people who asked "dumb questions" or couldn't figure out a math property as quickly as he could. And it really wore on me. It got to the point where I just walked away from him and said there's got to be somebody else. Luckily for me there was and the guy who became my advisor was also brilliant but a lot more patient. 

 

I look at this organization (the Redskins) and I see people like Kyle Shanahan who was here, went on to Cleveland and then to ATL before getting the coaching job at SF. So its not like it was a major stain on his resume here. There are others like Riddick who went on to Philly, but now is out of the league. Is that because of Washington or because he just wasn't good at his job or just a combination of things? Like, one thing about Snyder is that if you're in "the crew", you've got some job security. Even Scott Campbell stayed a long time and I was never impressed with his skills but always leaned on the excuse that he's probably not given enough power. Now we see another guy in Smith doing a similar role and doing it much better than Campbell, so I'd assume that Smith can look at that and think he has a chance to be here a long time if he wants. 

 

But then it gets to his ego again. Whats the saying, that everybody gets promoted to one level above where they should be. If he's doing so well right now then he can probably stay here forever if he wants, until he wants more (and is offered more). Then there will be serious discussions about what happens. We know his dad (Lord of No Rings) is know for being an arrogant prick, known for penny pinching ways similar to ol Bruce. So will his dad, who is Bruce's best friend (and was once not a fan of Snyder over RG3, but I wonder if thats still true) will inflate his ego and tell him he deserves to be leading the ship and not first mate. 

 

I do care because this is my team, but this is all a bunch of superficial offseason stuff that sounds great because its outside the margins. What really happens is on the field and I don't care if we name a pair of die and a dead man to GM if they're picking the right players and setting us up to win it all. 

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4 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Probably not cool to post an image that the man himself sued a newspaper over and called anti-Semitic, @SkinsFTW.

 

We have tons of reasons to feel a personal burning hatred for the man, so don't take it as a rebuke in that way. I just don't think we need to be using that image. 

 

I might agree yet I don't believe that Dan believes that it's anti semitic any more than he believes that the team name and logo is anti native American. He just didn't like being the butt of the joke. And that is pretty clear, just look at the picture.

 

Which makes his reaction to Trent Williams not being able to wear the Redskins helmet even more ridiculous considering he ridiculously faked this himself about a decade earlier. :ols: He just wanted that article to go away just like Trent wants the Redskins to go away.

 

But it appears that I'm not the first to find his claim ridiculous:

 

"The lawsuit is ridiculous on many levels, but mostly because it is a classic frivolous action. Snyder is a public figure, and in Washington, D.C., an owner of the Redskins is mentioned in the newspapers as often as President Obama. Proving defamation when the target of criticism is as famous as Snyder is almost impossible, and when the individual’s fame comes under regular scrutiny from the indelicate sportswriting establishment, it is harder than that. Well, perhaps I take this back; maybe the most ridiculous thing in the lawsuit is Snyder’s Anti-Semitism claim. The graphics for the article were photos of Snyder defaced graffiti-style (See here and here), with crude scribbling, mustache, beard and horns drawn over his face. Any rational person, of course, would recognize the City Paper’s art as representing the Redskins fans’ disgust and anger at Snyder."

 

https://ethicsalarms.com/2011/02/03/frivolous-charge-of-the-month-runner-up-redskins-owner-and-ethics-dunce-dan-snyder/amp/

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5 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

I might agree yet I don't believe that Dan believes that it's anti semitic

 

You're most likely right based on the discourse back then. If you're comfortable making that call for someone else, nothing else to say on the matter and I'll drop it. 

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This is an organization that had Sean McVay, Kyle Shanahan, and Matt Lafleur on a 3-13 team. All three of these guys are coaching playoff contenders right now.

 

It can be tough to evaluate who the young stars are when the top if so rotten.

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I thought I'd bring this up again because in light of our winning streak, I've got to look at Smith again. 

 

@Skinsinparadise and I often discuss this stuff and talk about the FO (and Kyle in particular) being able to find pretty much middle of the pack players but not superstars. And we're seeing a philosophy emerge from the style of players that Smith (and the scouting dept) normally goes after:

 - players whose draft stock is dropped because of an injury, (SDH, Love, Moreau)

 - raw players with talent but who need to be developed, (Christian, Apke)

 - team captains (although this may have been a Scot thing - i forget

 - small school guys who performed well (Moreland, Holcomb)

 

Clearly this is not the all encompassing thing, but some questions I have about Smith are things like how sure are we that these guys (or the guys we've drafted aren't superstar level)? I'll say first of all that the mere existence of superstars is rare, which is why they're superstars. And we saw McLaurin emerge this year as a contender for that name before somewhat coming back down to earth in the last 5 weeks. But is that because of our developing QB play, joined with our new coach, joined with a new playcaller who is getting a feel for both calling plays and working with the new QB and the new coach? I mention Holcomb who started the season looking like a contender for DROY before cooling off and showing some holes in his game. Even still he's putting up a good year and making plays. 

 

 

Then there's Moreau who was considered a bust for the longest time but the past two weeks has emerged as a legit starter and with his 3 and close to 4 pics, he may be showing that playmaker ability. The same can be said for Montez Sweat who has 3.5 sacks in the last 4 games. Then there's Sims who wasn't drafted, but has made two explosive plays this year and emerged last week as a reliable slot option. We saw Apke make an Int in his first game of the season. Guice just emerged as a legit RB in the draft who again has some big play ability. 

 

So in a sense he is shining here and we have this winning streak that can be attributed to the young guys, which I think should be a feather in the cap of Smith. And there should be possibly a question of whether we weren't doing a good enough job previously of playing (sometimes due to injury) and developing these guys. 

 

And this kinda ignores the playmaking contributions of people like Allen, Payne, Ioannidis, Nicholson, Dunbar, etc. 

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How about the job Alex Santos has done, eh?  Collins, Bostic, Flowers, Penn, Orchard, Hentges, Odom, Burton... that’s quite mishmash of unknowns and has-beens playing above their pay grade (aside from Collins, who’s playing quite well, but is also getting paid a lot of dough).  
 

 

@Thinking Skins Yeah, I have to credit Smith for the way a lot of youngsters are contributing.  
I will say that this also backs up a belief of mine that given the right opportunity and circumstances, many late round/UDFA types can succeed in the NFL.  The problem is (for them), teams usually lack patience to let them develop, they’re competing against similar talent level guys for a starting gig, and teams will always look to upgrade from anyone that isn’t a superstar.  Our young guys - Holcomb, Harmon, Apke, Sims, Christian, Moreland, etc. - are getting those chances.   

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On 11/9/2019 at 11:41 PM, ConnSKINS26 said:

Probably not cool to post an image that the man himself sued a newspaper over and called anti-Semitic, @SkinsFTW.

 

We have tons of reasons to feel a personal burning hatred for the man, so don't take it as a rebuke in that way. I just don't think we need to be using that image. 

 

Agreed.  At minimum we should be careful what spots we put the mods in concerning this is technically his website we posting on right now.

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If you think McLoughan was GM material, Kyle Smith's drafts have been demonstrably better.

 

His father AJ Smith put together the most talented roster by far in the NFL...and then squandered it badly by hiring Norvo the Clown to coach them.

Pioli did great things with personnel in KC, but blundered horribly as well in coaching hires, and the franchise was doomed by a player committing a murder/suicide.

 

Whatever happens, there MUST BE a complete break with the current decision making structure where everyone evades accountability for bad mistakes. The GM, not the coach, must put together the roster. The GM, not the owner, must hire the HC.  The GM must select and run the scouting department. The HC must pick his staff.  There must be a clear chain of accountability/responsibility to be held inviolate.

 

Unfortunately I have no confidence such a structure will ever be implemented, let alone respected under Lord Farquaad's stewardship.  Callahan will either be succeeded by big name over the hill coach who is granted absolute power, or we will hire another discredited enabler like Riddick.

Edited by Riggo-toni
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On 11/9/2019 at 10:15 PM, SkinsFTW said:

 

I didn't know that it was a secret but here is the answer

Doesn't even look like him.

Here's a better picture.

fdf21fcb90e55859c1da1fff8b6a9aa9.jpg

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1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

Then there's Moreau who was considered a bust for the longest time but the past two weeks has emerged as a legit starter and with his 3 and close to 4 pics, he may be showing that playmaker ability. The same can be said for Montez Sweat who has 3.5 sacks in the last 4 games. Then there's Sims who wasn't drafted, but has made two explosive plays this year and emerged last week as a reliable slot option. We saw Apke make an Int in his first game of the season. Guice just emerged as a legit RB in the draft who again has some big play ability. 

 

So in a sense he is shining here and we have this winning streak that can be attributed to the young guys, which I think should be a feather in the cap of Smith. And there should be possibly a question of whether we weren't doing a good enough job previously of playing (sometimes due to injury) and developing these guys. 

 

And this kinda ignores the playmaking contributions of people like Allen, Payne, Ioannidis, Nicholson, Dunbar, etc. 

 

I think Kyle is good at drafting.  I've said multiple times (pre Sunday's game) that my feeling is if he's going to break the team's long streak of not having star players (aside from Trent) it would be Guice.  And after watching him on Sunday, I am doubling down on that point.  You might recall me whining about them taking Payne over Derwin James in 2018 but I said I still love that draft anyway mainly because of Guice.  My feeling on that hasn't changed one whit. 

 

As for maybe we got hidden gems that our coaches haven't gotten the best out of?  I can see that on defense not so much on offense.  And there is evidence all over the place if you dissect it that can take you in different directions.

 

For example, according to multiple articles I've read -- Holcomb and Ioannidis was all Jay, that was his scouting.  He asked for them to take them.  There was a long article about how Jay spotted Holcomb that I posted months back on the Holcomb thread.  Norman is playing poorly.  And supposedly Jay wanted to dump in the off season and the FO disagreed.  They finally benched Norman this season and that's improved the secondary.   McLaurin has played better with Jay than with Callahan but I think that along with most things are pure coincidence.  

 

If you recall Jay took some heat for wanting to start Guice and Peterson was inactive.  He ended up looking bad in part because Guice got hurt so Jay looked like the fool with Peterson being the last man standing.  In his shoes, I'd have kept Peterson active but I totally got the mindset of starting Guice.  I and a few others defended Jay for going hard for Guice to be that dude.  It wasn't because I didn't like Peterson.  I love Peterson but Guice is young and can be superstar and he also is a better pass catcher and pass blocker IMO.

 

Jay has made some bad calls, too.  We got Preston killing it in GB.   But bringing up that it's not really that cut and dry as the coaching aspect of this.   I think for the most part the talent is the talent for better or worse. 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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27 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

Jay also wanted to draft Trey Quinn in the 4th round.  He's gotten some right, he's gotten some wrong.

 

As for the 4th round, I heard that Jay started talking him up then but really pushed hard for him to be drafted in the 6th.  I think it was Finlay who shared that if I recall.  But heck most 4th-7th rounders are busts.  Stats show that in a big way.   I don't fault anyone Jay, Kyle or even Bruce for those late picks.  Also Russell said Jay was upset that they let Crowder go in FA and if so I wonder how sold he was on Quinn really.  I wouldn't say he's a bust yet, its his first season playing but agree he's been "meh".

 

My point was I don't think we can place it on Jay as for Kyle not hitting on superstars.    I think Jay is a mixed bag.  An ESPN article about a year ago had a section where they asked other personnel guys around about who are the best evaluators on each team, and the personnel guy said the Redskins best evaluator was Jay.  I posted that article at the time.  So it should be interesting to see how much help or not Kyle got from Jay.   

 

It's hard for me to even summon this point since its been the refrain from the few FO homers over the years but this has been a mediocre team for years not a bad one.   We got off to a bad start this season with a mostly rough schedule and now we are reaching our normal (of late) stage of being mediocre playing an easier schedule then the beginning of the year.  It just doesn't feel to me that we've turned a major corner but instead we are finding our way back to the 2015-2018 range which I've felt is overrated and likewise I feel this 3-4 run is likewise overrated.   I am not saying you are suggesting otherwise but I am just explaining my mindset. 

 

To your point specifically.  As far as what's been out draft wise from what I can recall, it's been those 3 players along with talking Dunbar into converting to CB.  Dunbar said publicly when Jay left that he owes him his career.    Manusky I feel differently about.  The defense to me has clearly underacheived.  I am not suggesting they have some secret superstars in the mix but I bet many on D can play better. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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