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Welcome to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State


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I really like a lot of Haskins' abilities and potential, but it seems obvious to me that Haskins has maturity issues, a stubborn streak, smart guy arrogance, or whatever you want to call it. I know what those qualities look like and sound like, because I've dealt with the same **** in myself while having to grow up and mature.

 

He is not playing the way Rivera wants him to play and he told guys over and over again that if you play my way I'll take the blame, if you don't that's on you. Personally, I think Rivera is trying to do what he can, to avoid airing out the conflict happening behind the scenes, but it's obvious that Dwayne isn't handling this as well as he could and that absolutely has to be factored into the evaluation of this situation.

 

Is there some immature **** happening on the coaching side of this? It's highly likely, but I can only gleam so much from what media is available and have no idea what the mixture of immaturity and non-constructive behavior is between the two sides and who is doing what in which camp. But, what I do have is history. Rivera has shown with Cam Newton that he can develop a quarterback with an out-sized personality and adapt to him as long as puts in the work and maintains trust. Why would he suddenly change from that with Haskins? Haskins also has history regarding immaturity that just can't be dismissed as all rumors.

 

We have to thread the needle with all the information available, while also respecting the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns.
 

 

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2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Same. But, the body language, tweets and other items big time lead credence to reports.

Totally agree and feel the same. I would also add the Thomas Davis clip from one of the practices as more evidence that you can clearly hear how DH reacts to someone trying to help him. 

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2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

you can say that but as long as nobody is putting their name behind it there is nobody to blame if tomorrow Ron or Kyle or Scott comes out and says all these reports are false. Rhiannon Walker said that she couldn't verify those rumors and didn't want to speculate on them. We say all the time that scouts get things wrong and they're lucky if they get 3/7 or whatever. Batters are lucky if they hit 1/3 or 3/10. QBs are lucky if they hit 6/10 or 7/10. I'm just saying I don't expect reporters, even the best reporters to be hitting 100%, especially when it comes to leaks. 

 

Same goes the other way though, man. 

 

Again, the eye test tells me a lot. And Haskins clearly has some maturity issues. And his agent certainly tweeted. Those are facts (to my eyes). The other reports corroborate my thoughts. Not the other way. 

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23 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Same. But, the body language, tweets and other items big time lead credence to reports.

 

That's why I buy in more to the reports.

 

Agree.  Lets say Keim and Standig and Carpenter and Russell and Paulsen among others including national reporters are just conspiring against Haskins for no good reason -- as wild as that thought might be to believe but still lets play with it and ignore all their stories.  Still....

 

A.  you got the Ohio state reporter mentioning he saw the other QBs make fun of him in the Qb room for not knowing the playbook

 

B.  You got Doug in an interview at the beginning of the year more or less spelling out exactly what Haskins needs to do, in short work harder -- clearly suggesting that's not what he did last year.

 

C.  You got the stories about him before the draft as to work ethic concerns which I posted here.

 

D.  You got the anoyomous personnel guy from another team saying recently they had his work ethic red flagged before the draft

 

E.  You got the Peterson story from last year where he supposedly urged him to study more.  Then the recent WP story where a player urged him to work harder and model Alex Smith. 

 

F.  You got the agent tweet, you got the weird body language last year when he didn't seem interested in looking at plays during the game with O'Connell unlike other back ups who seemed engaged. 

 

G.  I've noticed myself and commented on it on the game threads that Haskins in multiple games looked oddly really happy after some loses -- so the story about him rubbing some players in the locker room the wrong way on that front to me makes plenty of sense. 

 

This stuff isn't some new narrative about Haskins coming out of the blue.  It's been a story after story that has been going on for well over a year.  You read some of these posts here you figure none of that happened.   Haskins was fine until Rivera arrived.  😁  What does it say that Haskins now has been at odds according to some with two coaching staffs in a row?  

 

I get that some people are so locked in and posted so much on the dude that they aren't backing off now.  But yeah i think you really have to have a blind eye to ignore the intangibles argument about Haskins.  I give some credit to Sheehan and Galdi because they were big time pro Haskins is the dude people before the season but recently have come off of that stance and indeed believe all these stories -- since as they say too many reputable reporters are talking about the same thing when it comes to Haskins and if so he should be benched.  They changed their position on him.  It's ok to be wrong especially when more information enters the picture. 

 

Part of the reason why i love listening to Cooley's takes on players is he's willing to admit when he is wrong.  Everyone is mortal as for player evaulations.   We are all wrong at times. 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And Keim and all these reporters are on some wild witch hunt against Haskins and are just making things up for kicks. 

Its no bias against Keim. Its that there is a known bias by Gruden against Haskins. He even said before the draft why he didn't want him. Its not to ignore what Haskins did wrong. But its like hiring me as a trucker and then once I'm on the job not giving me any instructions other than "get to work". All I've got is a liscense, I'm not ready for an 18 wheeler. But they wanted no parts of getting him up to par. Why is the conversations we had all last offseason and this time last year about how Gruden was setting him up to fail is now being ignored because Ron has problems with him?

 

Ron's problems may be completely different than Gruden's, but because we've heard this narrative before its easy to repeat it. I'm not saying that Keim is making it up but just that it could be coming from some of the same sources. And there's a whole different statement between Kyle didn't want Haskins in the first and Kyle didn't want Haskins at all. I haven't heard which one of these is true and its another one that I've been waiting for more on. If we were in the second or third and Haskins was on the table, are you saying that Kyle wouldn't have drafted him there? Would we still be in this same situation, with two coach who didn't want him? 

 

Look at the other QBs drafted in 2019 - 
Murray - a clear number 1 pick in the draft
Jones - went before us so not really an option
Lock - has shown talent and has made mistakes and has gotten hurt (133/218 for 1445 8TD 5Int)
Finley - (41/87 474, 2TD 2Int) 
Grier - (28/53 228, 0TD 4Int)
Minshew - looks like the second best QB out of this bunch, but I've got a statline view and don't see him play. 

 

So we haven't gotten to who Kyle likes ahead of Haskins. He was probably the next QB on his board - whether we picked him in the first, second or third. And he is definitely playing better than Grier and Finley. 

 

So Occum's razor just says that Haskins is the odd man out here. Its kinda like it was for Case last year. We (fans) didn't want Haskins playing weeks 1-5 beacuse it was a murders row of opponents. Ron probably didn't want Allen playing weeks 1-4 because we had a murders row of opponents. Now we have a soft spot in the schedule so Allen can look good and he can justify naming him the starter for the rest of the season. But I think he was hoping that first Haskins would have more games like that Cleveland game and second that Allen would win that NY game. 

 

When these two things didn't happen and we've got two QBs who look eerily similar and all we as fans see is that a coach went out of his way to criticize one QB for playing this way, and then went and praised the guy who replaced him for playing very similarly. 
 

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Haskins has a qbr that is 20 points lower than Daniel jones, 10 points lower than the 2nd worst qb in the league. His advanced metrics are awful. Was saying from week 2 that if he continues playing like he is Ron would have no choice but to bench him, especially with the way they were playing and the division the way it is. Ron made a move to compete for the division and even though they lost to the Giants, the offense still moved better than they have all year. So they're one win away from the Cowboys from being right back in the driver seat of the east. That's how Ron is looking at it. Allen gives them their best chance to win the division. That's not saying he's good, he's just better than the worst qb in the nfl. 

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5 minutes ago, GOATFrerotte said:

Haskins has a qbr that is 20 points lower than Daniel jones, 10 points lower than the 2nd worst qb in the league. His advanced metrics are awful. Was saying from week 2 that if he continues playing like he is Ron would have no choice but to bench him, especially with the way they were playing and the division the way it is. Ron made a move to compete for the division and even though they lost to the Giants, the offense still moved better than they have all year. So they're one win away from the Cowboys from being right back in the driver seat of the east. That's how Ron is looking at it. Allen gives them their best chance to win the division. That's not saying he's good, he's just better than the worst qb in the nfl. 

 

What's his interceptions? What's his fumbles? That's what we were saying about Alex Smith 2 years ago and that's how I've been saying we should be grading him as a young QB. As he learns to play in this league. QBR and Passer Rating and all those other numbers are nothing but features that give information, but the number one feature in terms of winning and losing is turnovers. Teams that win the turnover battle by 2 or more win 75% of the time. And when its 3 or more its 90%. Haskins wasn't committing turnovers. He did have the Cleveland game where he messed up but that was an abberation from his statline as a pro, which has been protecting the ball (especially since he became a starter). 

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5 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

What's his interceptions? What's his fumbles? That's what we were saying about Alex Smith 2 years ago and that's how I've been saying we should be grading him as a young QB. As he learns to play in this league. QBR and Passer Rating and all those other numbers are nothing but features that give information, but the number one feature in terms of winning and losing is turnovers. Teams that win the turnover battle by 2 or more win 75% of the time. And when its 3 or more its 90%. Haskins wasn't committing turnovers. He did have the Cleveland game where he messed up but that was an abberation from his statline as a pro, which has been protecting the ball (especially since he became a starter). 

Not committing turnovers is important but only if its a feature of a functioning offense. Otherwise teams would literally just QB kneel every play and then punt to avoid turning it over. You still need to sustain drives and maintain possession and ultimately score points and Haskins wasn't really doing any of that.

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4 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

What's his interceptions? What's his fumbles? That's what we were saying about Alex Smith 2 years ago and that's how I've been saying we should be grading him as a young QB. As he learns to play in this league. QBR and Passer Rating and all those other numbers are nothing but features that give information, but the number one feature in terms of winning and losing is turnovers. Teams that win the turnover battle by 2 or more win 75% of the time. And when its 3 or more its 90%. Haskins wasn't committing turnovers. He did have the Cleveland game where he messed up but that was an abberation from his statline as a pro, which has been protecting the ball (especially since he became a starter). 

 

He doesn't turn the ball over because he doesn't try to make any plays. He goes through his progressions so fast and just throws to a back or his check down. That's his big problem, is he can't read a defense and make plays downfield. I'm sure Ron would take more interceptions if it meant more plays. There is a reason his qbr is so low. He's not making plays that nfl qbs make.

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35 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

I really like a lot of Haskins' abilities and potential, but it seems obvious to me that Haskins has maturity issues, a stubborn streak, smart guy arrogance, or whatever you want to call it. I know what those qualities look like and sound like, because I've dealt with the same **** in myself while having to grow up and mature.

 

He is not playing the way Rivera wants him to play and he told guys over and over again that if you play my way I'll take the blame, if you don't that's on you. Personally, I think Rivera is trying to do what he can, to avoid airing out the conflict happening behind the scenes, but it's obvious that Dwayne isn't handling this as well as he could and that absolutely has to be factored into the evaluation of this situation.

 

Is there some immature **** happening on the coaching side of this? It's highly likely, but I can only gleam so much from what media is available and have no idea what the mixture of immaturity and non-constructive behavior is between the two sides and who is doing what in which camp. But, what I do have is history. Rivera has shown with Cam Newton that he can develop a quarterback with an out-sized personality and adapt to him as long as puts in the work and maintains trust. Why would he suddenly change from that with Haskins? Haskins also has history regarding immaturity that just can't be dismissed as all rumors.

 

We have to thread the needle with all the information available, while also respecting the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns.
 

 

 

I agree with much of this, but something I will not discount is that Rivera this go round has ultimate power. This is much different than just being part of the cog and having others with equal if not more power. The Panthers represented Rivera’s first coaching gig, I assume he was going to follow anything and everything the first few years, especially with a #1 overall pick. 
 

Rivera and Panthers FO also hit on supreme value with a dual threat QB when the rest of the league was remaining romantic with old ways of doing things. The Panthers were at the forefront of an NFL trend when Newton fell into their laps. They did maximize his talents though to point of being and NFL MVP and reaching a SB, can’t take that away from them/Rivera. 

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2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Not committing turnovers is important but only if its a feature of a functioning offense. Otherwise teams would literally just QB kneel every play and then punt to avoid turning it over. You still need to sustain drives and maintain possession and ultimately score points and Haskins wasn't really doing any of that.

Again, this is where we disagree because in the Baltimore game we were doing that. 

1st drive 9 plays 22 yards punt (2 first downs)

2nd drive 3 plays 16 yards fumble by JDM (1 first down)

3rd drive 3 and out

4th drive 9 plays 46 yards (3 first downs) - missed FG

5th drive 10 plays 75 yards TD, (4 first downs)

6th drive 5 plays 8 yards punt (one first down)

7th drive 3 plays 12 yards FG (one first down) (right before half)

8th drive 5 plays 14 yards punt (one first down)

9th drive 17 plays 82 yards downs (7 first downs)

10th drive 4 plays 20 yards (1 first down)

11th drive 4 plays 42 yards (1 first down) TD

 

That's only one 3 and out. He was moving the ball this game. He played a conservative style of offense. But unlike Ron said, the TEAM made mistakes. Haskins didn't fumble. Haskins didn't miss a FG. Haskins isn't the one who didn't go out of bounds before the FG. It may be a completely different game if not for these things but Haskins gets the blame, particularly with the 52 vs 1 comment and now with the leaks. 

 

Leaks aren't why we weren't in this game. We had a chance and were moving the ball but now the story has shifted from Haskins on the field production to him being immature and these other things. Haskins was playing as well as Allen did Sunday.

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35 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Its no bias against Keim. Its that there is a known bias by Gruden against Haskins. He even said before the draft why he didn't want him. Its not to ignore what Haskins did wrong. But its like hiring me as a trucker and then once I'm on the job not giving me any instructions other than "get to work". All I've got is a liscense, I'm not ready for an 18 wheeler. But they wanted no parts of getting him up to par. Why is the conversations we had all last offseason and this time last year about how Gruden was setting him up to fail is now being ignored because Ron has problems with him?

 

Ron's problems may be completely different than Gruden's, but because we've heard this narrative before its easy to repeat it. I'm not saying that Keim is making it up but just that it could be coming from some of the same sources. And there's a whole different statement between Kyle didn't want Haskins in the first and Kyle didn't want Haskins at all. I haven't heard which one of these is true and its another one that I've been waiting for more on. If we were in the second or third and Haskins was on the table, are you saying that Kyle wouldn't have drafted him there? Would we still be in this same situation, with two coach who didn't want him? 

 

It's not too hard to piece together the narrative since so many have spoken about it who supposedly talked to people within that building.  But its been covered to death on this thread so I'll bullet point-cliff notes it.

 

Jay and Kyle and scouts in that building didn't grade Haskins as a first round talent.  As for them being excited about him as a 2nd or 3rd rounder, I got no idea.  But they saw him as a project. 

 

A project + poor intangibles + poor work habits doesn't equal patience.  The whole idea of a project is that they work their way past it.  

 

 If I am going for a project, I'd want to see improvement and good work habits.  Rivera has flat out said he hasn't seen the improvement he wanted to see.  Les Carpenter said in practice they see the same problems and the same mistakes over and over again with no improvement.  

 

I can't blame Scott Turner for Haskins' inaccuracy, immaturity and lack of preparation. I don't rule out he's a bad play caller but I don't see the two issues that interlinked. 

 

I get we can pretend all these sources from WTF and outside the WFT are just made up crazy stuff or they all have the exact same sources and are being misled.  But I know a bit about the media business from my own work -- and i'd say the odds you are right about that is 1% tops.   i recall you used to make the same argument to defend Bruce -- all the sources had agendas, this and that.  You ended up wrong IMO. 

 

The only thing that would talk me back into Haskins is hearing from Rivera or someone from the team that Haskins is fighting mad and channeling that energy or whatever and is burning it up in practice.  I don't rule out that the shock benching may re-ignite Haskins.  I wouldn't bet on it.  but I wouldn't rule it out.  I don't ignore a preponderance of information that is slanted hard in one direction regardless if I find that information inconveinient to my previous opinon.  So yeah if i start reading Haskins is working like mad, studying and improving in practice -- I'll buy in.  Lot of smoke usually means indeed the fire exists.  

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12 minutes ago, GOATFrerotte said:

He doesn't turn the ball over because he doesn't try to make any plays. He goes through his progressions so fast and just throws to a back or his check down. That's his big problem, is he can't read a defense and make plays downfield. I'm sure Ron would take more interceptions if it meant more plays. There is a reason his qbr is so low. He's not making plays that nfl qbs make.

I agree with the first sentence. The question is why. I don't believe that he can't read defenses. I think that part of his problem is that he's seeing it but he knows that he has to get the ball out in say 2.5 seconds because of his line and rushes throws. This could also be why he's not taking shots unlike last year. I doubt that Ron wants more ints though I think he wants Haskins to go through his checkdowns slower and let plays develop. 

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14 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

I agree with much of this, but something I will not discount is that Rivera this go round has ultimate power. This is much different than just being part of the cog and having others with equal if not more power. The Panthers represented Rivera’s first coaching gig, I assume he was going to follow anything and everything the first few years, especially with a #1 overall pick. 
 

Rivera and Panthers FO also hit on supreme value with a dual threat QB when the rest of the league was remaining romantic with old ways of doing things. The Panthers were at the forefront of an NFL trend when Newton fell into their laps. They did maximize his talents though to point of being and NFL MVP and reaching a SB, can’t take that away from them/Rivera. 

 

That's a great point. Power does change people if it is not correctly counter-balanced so it absolutely has to be considered and Cam had success or "flashed" early which helped solidify his standing. I am still open and willing to criticize Rivera for moving on too soon from Dwayne, especially considering that Ron is undergoing treatments that would make anybody less patient and more short-tempered. Those all have reasonable merit as possibilities in my eyes. However, those are also going to be balanced against all the other information we have.

 

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10 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Rivera and Panthers FO also hit on supreme value with a dual threat QB when the rest of the league was remaining romantic with old ways of doing things. The Panthers were at the forefront of an NFL trend when Newton fell into their laps. They did maximize his talents though to point of being and NFL MVP and reaching a SB, can’t take that away from them/Rivera. 

 

To play off of that point, I don't think its nuts for Rivera to be looking at this upcoming draft with some hunger since you got 3 QBs with some serious mobility, 2 of which with special mobility. 

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11 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I agree with the first sentence. The question is why. I don't believe that he can't read defenses. I think that part of his problem is that he's seeing it but he knows that he has to get the ball out in say 2.5 seconds because of his line and rushes throws. This could also be why he's not taking shots unlike last year. I doubt that Ron wants more ints though I think he wants Haskins to go through his checkdowns slower and let plays develop. 

 

Any coach would take more ints if it means you're making more plays and producing more points. Scoring 10-14 points while playing it safe is a losing formula. Whatever the reason is for his lack of ability to make plays, he's so bad at advanced qb play that it's not even close. He was completing like 20% of his passes downfield. He's dead last in many advanced qb statistics. You're going to get benched pretty fast if you play like that.

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17 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

. I think that part of his problem is that he's seeing it but he knows that he has to get the ball out in say 2.5 seconds because of his line and rushes throws.  

2.5 seconds is pretty much the league average in time to throw.

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19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

To play off of that point, I don't think its nuts for Rivera to be looking at this upcoming draft with some hunger since you got 3 QBs with some serious mobility, 2 of which with special mobility. 


I agree with this. I think one of the benefits to a defensive head coach in today’s game they’re are not as prone to be romantic with a way of doing things on the offensive side of the ball or needing a certain type of QB. The defensive coach is not attached from an ego standpoint to how it’s done on offense allowing for an increased focus on maximizing the situation and QB. This seems especially true with the dual threat QBs. 
 

I do think it will be an increased challenge for Ron to separate his ego from the QB choice he makes next year. Will he be able to maintain a hands off approach to that side of the ball when it’s HIS guy struggling or experiencing some challenges? 
 

Let’s just hope it’s a slam dunk pick and not have to worry about managing struggle or questions lol

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4 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

2.5 seconds is pretty much the league average in time to throw.

Yeah but if you look at he is a much better passer when he throws in less than 2.5 seconds. Its kinda the opposite for Allen where he likes to make plays by scrambling and waitinf for something to happen. 

 

If you look at the ratings. He was tied for the least amount of time in the pocket before throwing the ball. He was 11th in terms of pressure percentage. I think these things are influencing his decisions to be quick with the ball, particularly if he knows that he has more playmakers at RB than at WR. 

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59 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I get that some people are so locked in and posted so much on the dude that they aren't backing off now.  But yeah i think you really have to have a blind eye to ignore the intangibles argument about Haskins.  I give some credit to Sheehan and Galdi because they were big time pro Haskins is the dude people before the season but recently have come off of that stance and indeed believe all these stories -- since as they say too many reputable reporters are talking about the same thing when it comes to Haskins and if so he should be benched.  They changed their position on him.  It's ok to be wrong especially when more information enters the picture. 

 

Part of the reason why i love listening to Cooley's takes on players is he's willing to admit when he is wrong.  Everyone is mortal as for player evaulations.   We are all wrong at times. 

 

Cooley, Sheehan, Bullock, etc. have been killing Rivera for his confusing flip-flopping and in-game decisions.  Are you willing to admit you've been wrong to defend him this season because they are down on him, and are citing examples as to why?  I know the answer is no.  

 

It's the same with Haskins for people who still support him.  People aren't going to completely give up on a QB they liked and still think can be good just because of negative reports about his immaturity and work ethic concerns (things that generally improve as a player ages).  If people think he was given a raw deal here from the moment he was drafted, and haven't seen enough of him to make a decision about what he is one way or the other, they aren't going to give up on him and "admit they were wrong".

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14 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Why?

Because its one of the things I look at. I see him going to checkdowns other than his first read. Normally people who can't read defenses stay on their first read and force throws. Further, normally (especially this year) he was able to recall plays and the coverages he saw on the play and why he made a decision. That's showing me he knows something. Whether what he's seeing is correct is between him and the advanced analysts and teh coaches. But I don't believe it because I have some evidence to the contrary. 

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Anyone notice how the subject went from “possible immaturity issues being a big reason why Haskins was benched” and went RIGHT back to stats and QB play without much more than a shrug?

Edited by KDawg
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2 hours ago, KDawg said:

Why is that not coming up with any of these posts? It’s all strictly about play.

 

Which is kind of funny, because apparently being dead last in the NFL in QBR among all qualified passers since he has been starting, and what, 31 out of 34 qualified QB's in PFF rankings isn't bad enough to make a switch to some.

 

Let's put him back in. I know we all want to see him sail a swing pass to the RB 3 yards over his head a few more times.

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6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Anyone notice how the subject went from “possible immaturity issues being a big reason why Haskins was benched” and went RIGHT back to stats and QB play without much more than a shrug?

I shrugged a couple times actually.  :)     His immaturity issues are why he isn't playing. He is not good and his immaturity issues/attitude will prevent him from ever being good.  Which is why he is practice team essentially. Coaches clearly see no point in wasting time on him.

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