pico926 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 12 minutes ago, Painkiller said: I think we can definitely all agree on this one. I joined this website in 2004 after Joe came back. I was so excited I was looking forward to talking with other fans about his return. The prospects of becoming a winning elite team again. Suffice to say, the next 16 years did not go at all like I expected. Honestly, I think some fans are making the same mistake now with Ron and Haskins as they did with Shanahan and RG3. They are again taking the side of a rookie “done nothing” at this level over a proven professional football man in Ron. I think history has certainly vindicated Mike Shanahan in that regard. I firmly believe that history will vindicate Ron on how he is handling Haskins right now. The glaring difference is Shanahan fielded a competitive team out the gate and created an innovative offensive scheme that took the league by storm with RGIII at the helm. They both had success out the gate and has credits in the bank. This is totally different with Ron fielding a terrible non-competitive team out the gate and QB having no success. Both are in the red right with no credits in the bank. Again will reserve judgment til the halfway mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapsSkins Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 Ron Rivera is a guy whose entire reputation was one of integrity. That he was tough but fair. Players loved him. Was he a great GM? Debatable. Brainiac at X's and O's? Not exactly. The best at halftime adjustments? Nope. Belichick at getting mediocre players to overperform within a system? Not really. His entire reputation was high-character, high-integrity. And some of y'all are really calling this man a racist because he benched Dwayne Haskins. DWAYNE HASKINS. Are you nuts? You say black quarterbacks have no chance in this league if they aren't Mahomes or Russ or Lamar or Kyler. That there's no room to be anything but elite. Okay. So what about Tyrod Taylor, Geno Smith, Jacoby Brissett, RG3, PJ Walker, Jameis Winston or Teddy Bridgewater? Did the Eagles convert Jalen Hurts into a WR last week or something? Is there discrimination against black QB's in the league in 2020? I am sure. Absolutely. But is Ron Rivera the guy you'd peg as an offender? A guy with a sterling reputation not to mention one of the few Hispanic members of the league? Really? It's one thing to criticize Rivera's roster-building or Scott Turner's playcalling or Ron's clock management or his focus given his health, etc. But you're going to pick the one trait he's universally known for and say it's entirely false because he benched the statistically worst starter in the league with a dubious attitude and work ethic? I just can't get over that, I feel like I'm going crazy. Btw, I am a dark-skinned minority myself FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heisenberg Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 30 minutes ago, pico926 said: The glaring difference is Shanahan fielded a competitive team out the gate and created an innovative offensive scheme that took the league by storm with RGIII at the helm. They both had success out the gate and has credits in the bank. This is totally different with Ron fielding a terrible non-competitive team out the gate and QB having no success. Both are in the red right with no credits in the bank. Again will reserve judgment til the halfway mark. We must have different definitions of "out the gate". Shanny went 6-10 and 5-11 his first two years here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 5 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said: At what point is it okay to look at the 2020 Panthers and wonder if Rivera/Turner were the problem? They're currently 3-2 and look much better than they did last year, even without McCaffery. They were not good last season in Carolina. Feels like we imported a weak coaching staff and they've gotten worse. Their off-season roster building sucked and their coaching has been a disaster. A 3-13 team has managed to regress and there is no clear path forward for improvement right now. But the passing game is gushing blood right now and before we can even contemplate finishing the year with a healthy QB on the roster, they have got to figure a lot of things out to stop the bleeding. Hopefully for their sake they can pick some low hanging fruit against this soft stretch in the schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 6 hours ago, CapsSkins said: It's one thing to criticize Rivera's roster-building or Scott Turner's playcalling or Ron's clock management or his focus given his health, etc. But you're going to pick the one trait he's universally known for and say it's entirely false because he benched the statistically worst starter in the league with a dubious attitude and work ethic? I just can't get over that, I feel like I'm going crazy. Btw, I am a dark-skinned minority myself FWIW. I'd add the obvious that Rivera is a minority himself, endorsed an African American Team President, added women to his staff. You can't get a more open to diversity coach in the NFL than this dude. I'd add you might not have a dude more obsessed with character, integirty and work ethic than Rivera. His dad is a military guy, he's talked about his own discipline and what he demands from his players a lot. I watched the full All or Nothing season, it gave you a good window into his style. The idea also that Rivera and company are falsey maligning Dwyane's character is beyond absurd. It's not how he rolls. And look even if I ran with that very strange accusation. That's the same stuff that others have said about Dwayne too, not just the previous coaching staff, FO, but others beyond that. When Russell among others say Haskins' questionable intangibles isn't a secret around the league maybe they aren't all making that up? Some of the same concerns about him were mentioned by some before the draft. And as @BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said we aren't questioning some elite prospect. As i posted here, scouts say the #1 thing for any QB is ball placement. Arm strength is much futher down that list. And even on that front, Haskins doesn't have an elite arm. He has a good arm and he can't even showcase it a ton because he throws so much with just his arm without putting his body/legs into the motion. Too many of his throws are backfoot throws. His thing (as I posted on this thread) in Ohio State were short in route throws and mega YAC from his receivers in Ohio State. It's not just a theory, PFF tracked it. He was mega about easy short throws and YAC at Ohio State. Slants, digs, shallow crossers. Even one of his bigger fans before the draft admitted he doesn't throw a good deep ball. His pocket presence is meh. He doesn't throw well on the move. I'd put money he leaves here and ends up just a guy as Qb -- not that different than Ramsey and Campbell both who also had strong but not elite arms. As for the Scott Turner move. I didn't love dumping O'Connell for Turner at the time. I did let it ride after commenting on it. Could he be part of the problem in the soup, as I've been saying maybe so. Is he the reason why Haskins' accuracy and traits aren't that hot and supposedly he's not putting in the time? I don't think so. You can have more than one problem on offense. And look if its all Scott Turner and Haskins is some innocent dupe in the plot and is mega talented as some here claim than it should be obvious to the rest of the league too we should have no problem getting a bounty for Haskins in a trade or at least the Josh Rosen compensation. What I really think will happen is this. I wasn't a big Josh Rosen guy after studying him, didn't hate him either. But for his faults his footwork is masterful. Quick feet. He has other issues but footwork IMO isn't one of them. I can see a team thinking they could mold the clay with Rosen easier than with Haskins whose footwork is a mess. Rosen also had some questioning of his work ethic while he was in Arizona but its not as intense as the questions about Haskins. But they both had that mark against them. It should be interesting. If Haskins is traded, I am predicting a 5th rounder, maybe conditional 4th, I hope I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/03/05/nfl-combine-2018-news-josh-rosen-shaquem-griffin-mmqb-peter-king Football isn’t that important to him, because he’s a rich kid whose mom is the great-great-granddaughter of the founder of Penn’s prestigious Wharton School of Business, and whose dad is a renowned spinal surgeon, and who once put a hot tub in his college bedroom. Rich kids can’t have the same drive as lower-middle-class kids. He’s a crappy leader, he questions authority, and his teammates roll their eyes at him. He’s too smart for his own good. He’s anti-Trump (once wearing a hat to a Trump golf course with “F--- Trump” on it), into politics and cares a lot about the planet. Quarterbacks need to be myopic. Football only. Can you imagine if any of this was uttered about Haskins? Or if Haskins was asked by a prospective coach during an interview if he was going to "screw him"?In 2014 the Vikings were considering a number of players, including Johnny Manziel, with their first-round pick. A Minnesota contingent, led by coach Mike Zimmer, dined with Manziel during the decision-making process, and Zimmer asked him, in essence, If we pick you, I have to be convinced you’re not going to screw me. Can I trust you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 16 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said: We moved the ball on that drive due to 2 short passes for YAC, a 15-yard penalty, and a TD run. If you think his play last Sunday was a vast improvement over Dwayne's, it's clear we'll never be on the same page. Yeah no doubt we will never see it the same if you continue to ignore the plays with his legs that Allen made, plays Dwayne literally showed he is incapable of making. He was clearly more accurate, if you can't admit this you are not being honest And again Sprinkle's drop would have extended a drive made his numbers look better. He had another drop too but obviously Dwayne had some as well but we are evaluating Allen and he just didn't play badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said: Yeah no doubt we will never see it the same if you continue to ignore the plays with his legs that Allen made, plays Dwayne literally showed he is incapable of making. He was clearly more accurate, if you can't admit this you are not being honest And again Sprinkle's drop would have extended a drive made his numbers look better. He had another drop too but obviously Dwayne had some as well but we are evaluating Allen and he just didn't play badly. Allen looked better than Haskins but let's also not pretend like he was great. He was more accurate generally and made the right reads (probably from knowing the system well), and he made some plays with his legs. But most of their drives were no good and on the TD drive most of his air yards were YAC from checkdowns. That's not damning or anything, considering how fast their pressure was getting to us, but I want to see how Allen looks throwing to more levels before I made much of a judgement on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, mistertim said: Allen looked better than Haskins but let's also not pretend like he was great. He was more accurate generally and made the right reads (probably from knowing the system well), and he made some plays with his legs. But most of their drives were no good and on the TD drive most of his air yards were YAC from checkdowns. That's not damning or anything, considering how fast their pressure was getting to us, but I want to see how Allen looks throwing to more levels before I made much of a judgement on him. I made it very clear that I never said he was great, just that he was an obvious improvement over Dwayne. When fans can't acknowledge this then it's clear they are not evaluating him fairly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philibusters Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said: I made it very clear that I never said he was great, just that he was an obvious improvement over Dwayne. When fans can't acknowledge this then it's clear they are not evaluating him fairly. I don't even know if it was an obvious improvement from Dwayne. He had 5 drives and got one TD. The TD was aided by a roughing the passer penalty. We would have been facing 3rd and 6 without the penalty. We might have converted, but the penalty helped the TD drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJHJR86 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 7 minutes ago, philibusters said: I don't even know if it was an obvious improvement from Dwayne. He had 5 drives and got one TD. The TD was aided by a roughing the passer penalty. We would have been facing 3rd and 6 without the penalty. We might have converted, but the penalty helped the TD drive. So now that Dwayne isn't the starter, we're going to hold penalties committed against the offense against them? Interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wit33 Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 59 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said: I made it very clear that I never said he was great, just that he was an obvious improvement over Dwayne. When fans can't acknowledge this then it's clear they are not evaluating him fairly. Difficult to say Allen’s half of football was obviously better than what we’ve seen from Haskins. I do think the short game stuff will continue to trend upwards with Allen, but worried about his ability to get the ball down the field and concerned it may be related some to the weekly scheme not being up to par. Need Terry threatening 100 or so yards each game with to compliment the short stuff. My favorite game from a schematic standpoint was the one versus the Browns and wonder if that not only made Haskins gun shy but also Turner. Looking forward to seeing some more Allen, he did move the meter up a tiny smidge for me last week. I saw some opportunity to get a rhythm going with Allen and potential to have the short game be a real extension to the run game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 9 hours ago, Heisenberg said: We must have different definitions of "out the gate". Shanny went 6-10 and 5-11 his first two years here. 6 of their 10 losses in 2010 were by 4 points or less. So, it's fair to say that the 6-10 Redskins were plenty competitive in year 1 under Shanahan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heisenberg Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: 6 of their 10 losses in 2010 were by 4 points or less. So, it's fair to say that the 6-10 Redskins were plenty competitive in year 1 under Shanahan. It didn't translate very well to the next season when they won even less games. *shrugs* While they might not have been the dumpster fire that is the current WFT, I wouldn't call that any sort of immediate success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philibusters Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 4 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: So now that Dwayne isn't the starter, we're going to hold penalties committed against the offense against them? Interesting... Not really. My point is people are saying Allen was an "obvious" improvement. The sample size was really small. When you have a really small sample size things like penalties matter. I wouldn't bring up that point if people didn't argue Allen was an obvious improvement. Claiming anything on mixed results from a really small sample size is absurd and if my point was absurd too it was made to illustrate that in a small sample size things like that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Heisenberg said: It didn't translate very well to the next season when they won even less games. *shrugs* While they might not have been the dumpster fire that is the current WFT, I wouldn't call that any sort of immediate success. No one did...they were a competitive team in year 1. That's all that was said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Green Fan Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 14 minutes ago, philibusters said: Not really. My point is people are saying Allen was an "obvious" improvement. The sample size was really small. When you have a really small sample size things like penalties matter. I wouldn't bring up that point if people didn't argue Allen was an obvious improvement. Claiming anything on mixed results from a really small sample size is absurd and if my point was absurd too it was made to illustrate that in a small sample size things like that matter. What I find absurd is posters failing to recognize the big sack he avoided and the TD run he made, both plays Dwayne is simply not able to make as we have seen. His accuracy was clearly better, not sure how that is debatable at this point but here we are. Again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggarriso Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 The drama continues - 1067 reporting "Simba" not practicing today. Was "sent home" sick (not covid related) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 8 minutes ago, ggarriso said: The drama continues - 1067 reporting "Simba" not practicing today. Was "sent home" sick (not covid related) @Cooleyfan1993is very concerned for his health now, it’s been almost a week with this stomach bug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 55 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said: So now that Dwayne isn't the starter, we're going to hold penalties committed against the offense against them? Interesting... So now that Dwayne isn't the starter we're going to credit roughing the passer penalties committed by the opposing defense to the QB? Interesting... Say, this is fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 Just now, ConnSKINS26 said: @Cooleyfan1993is very concerned for his health now, it’s been almost a week with this stomach bug A simple laugh expression on your post is an injustice to this gold. I actually LOL'd. Nobody would lie about throwing up, bro - NOBODY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 I am shocked, SHOCKED that Simba 300 is still too sick to practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 This thread has been rather calm today, and work has been slow, but Simba is the gift that keeps on giving it appears. *Fire up the Haskins thread* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted October 14, 2020 Share Posted October 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: This thread has been rather calm today, and work has been slow, but Simba is the gift that keeps on giving it appears. *Fire up the Haskins thread* Wear your mask and wash your hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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