FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[CousinsCowgirl84]

2 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

a list of bottom tier QBs

 

 

Hey, i’m um... i’m not sure that means what you think it means... or, are we playing a sick game of would you rather?

[Thinking Skins]

?
 

9 hours ago, KDawg said:

Did you just accuse every person who doesn’t like Haskins as a quarterback of racism? Or did I read that wrong?

Really? That's what you got from my post? This is why its so hard to talk about these underlying issues because when I or somebody brings them up, they're dismissed as being accusations or somebody will point out what about this player or this situation. 

 

No I did not call you or "every person who doesn't like Haskins" racist or accuse them of racism. I did point out the struggles that Black QBs have HISTORICALLY had to adapt in this league. They started a QB workshop LAST YEAR because of this very problem. 

 

-----------

 

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2020/1/2/21046246/the-black-quarterback-club-deshaun-watson-jalen-hurts

 

“I just wanted to share my story,” said current Jaguars quarterback Josh Dobbs, a former Tennessee star. “What African American quarterbacks have to battle on a daily basis, whether you’re a professional football player, college, high school, or even in elementary running around in peewee or a flag football team.”

 

“One day, if we get to the point that two or three of the worst quarterbacks in the league are African American, that will let me know we’ve gone somewhere, when people who are black get the opportunity to be average, or not as good.” Simply put, Avery doesn’t think black quarterbacks get as many chances, and he wants to widen the net of success stories.

 

What happened next is more important than what happened in Atlanta: A network developed. Moon said he keeps in touch with quarterbacks from the event. He told me he texted Haskins early in the season when Haskins wasn’t playing; Moon told him to watch as much practice tape as he possibly could while serving as a backup. 

-----------

 

https://www.colorado.edu/today/2017/08/21/racial-stereotypes-influence-perception-nfl-quarterbacks

 

Previous research has suggested that certain words and phrases used in sports media often carry implicit racial bias. Black athletes are more likely to be described in terms of natural ability and strength while white players are more likely to be described through the prism of intelligence and effort. Sociological research has also indicated that members of a given group are more likely to think of their own membership as diverse while thinking of other groups as homogenous, a phenomenon known as social identity theory.

 

-----------

 

People in this thread are grabbing hold of angles like work ethic and "something else" and arguments with Ron about his stats or his leadership. He had his intelligence questioned openly in this very thread. People saying he couldn't read defenses - something he's been doing since high school and his memory is so good that he tells you in press conferences what he saw on certain plays and why he made certain decisions. Maybe its not what we want to hear and maybe his body (eyes) isn't doing what he thinks its doing, but he's telling us the defense he read and why he made his decisions. Doesn't sound like a guy who can't read defenses, but its still something that he has to fight. 

 

And people say its because "in Ron we trust" or "we want to give Ron 3 years" or whatever and that's at the expense of Haskins. We don't know why Ron doesn't like Haskins but Ron is supposed to be so infallible right now that any decision he makes (except the TOs or cutting AP or not benching Apke or trading Trent or trading Dunbar or not benching Alex) is accepted without question right now. 

 

But this discussion is too deep for this forum. People here only want to discuss the surface. "ooh, his stat metric wasn't there". "i just didn't like what I saw". "he's not learning", "he's not getting better" and so we (at least me and a lot of people in this forum) will not be in agreement because I'm not saying that Haskins will ever be an all pro (and I don't think we need that). I just think that the Haskins we're seeing right now - from his first start last year under Cal to week 4 against the Ravens is good enough to win football games with. 

 

But I'm going to get called all kinds of names because when I say this, people say "but you also liked JC". And I did. I said the same thing about JC. GIve him a stable environment and watch him grow. Instead he had 4 or 5 OCs inf his first 5 years. Learning new terminology and bad playbooks. Its funny because the criticism of Scott Turner was that his playbook was close to Jim Zorn's last week. All that does is show how much more difficult it was for JC to look good here. 

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

?
 

Really? That's what you got from my post? This is why its so hard to talk about these underlying issues because when I or somebody brings them up, they're dismissed as being accusations or somebody will point out what about this player or this situation. 

 

No I did not call you or "every person who doesn't like Haskins" racist or accuse them of racism. I did point out the struggles that Black QBs have HISTORICALLY had to adapt in this league. They started a QB workshop LAST YEAR because of this very problem. 

 

-----------

 

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2020/1/2/21046246/the-black-quarterback-club-deshaun-watson-jalen-hurts

 

“I just wanted to share my story,” said current Jaguars quarterback Josh Dobbs, a former Tennessee star. “What African American quarterbacks have to battle on a daily basis, whether you’re a professional football player, college, high school, or even in elementary running around in peewee or a flag football team.”

 

“One day, if we get to the point that two or three of the worst quarterbacks in the league are African American, that will let me know we’ve gone somewhere, when people who are black get the opportunity to be average, or not as good.” Simply put, Avery doesn’t think black quarterbacks get as many chances, and he wants to widen the net of success stories.

 

What happened next is more important than what happened in Atlanta: A network developed. Moon said he keeps in touch with quarterbacks from the event. He told me he texted Haskins early in the season when Haskins wasn’t playing; Moon told him to watch as much practice tape as he possibly could while serving as a backup. 

-----------

 

https://www.colorado.edu/today/2017/08/21/racial-stereotypes-influence-perception-nfl-quarterbacks

 

Previous research has suggested that certain words and phrases used in sports media often carry implicit racial bias. Black athletes are more likely to be described in terms of natural ability and strength while white players are more likely to be described through the prism of intelligence and effort. Sociological research has also indicated that members of a given group are more likely to think of their own membership as diverse while thinking of other groups as homogenous, a phenomenon known as social identity theory.

 

-----------

 

People in this thread are grabbing hold of angles like work ethic and "something else" and arguments with Ron about his stats or his leadership. He had his intelligence questioned openly in this very thread. People saying he couldn't read defenses - something he's been doing since high school and his memory is so good that he tells you in press conferences what he saw on certain plays and why he made certain decisions. Maybe its not what we want to hear and maybe his body (eyes) isn't doing what he thinks its doing, but he's telling us the defense he read and why he made his decisions. Doesn't sound like a guy who can't read defenses, but its still something that he has to fight. 

 

And people say its because "in Ron we trust" or "we want to give Ron 3 years" or whatever and that's at the expense of Haskins. We don't know why Ron doesn't like Haskins but Ron is supposed to be so infallible right now that any decision he makes (except the TOs or cutting AP or not benching Apke or trading Trent or trading Dunbar or not benching Alex) is accepted without question right now. 

 

But this discussion is too deep for this forum. People here only want to discuss the surface. "ooh, his stat metric wasn't there". "i just didn't like what I saw". "he's not learning", "he's not getting better" and so we (at least me and a lot of people in this forum) will not be in agreement because I'm not saying that Haskins will ever be an all pro (and I don't think we need that). I just think that the Haskins we're seeing right now - from his first start last year under Cal to week 4 against the Ravens is good enough to win football games with. 

 

But I'm going to get called all kinds of names because when I say this, people say "but you also liked JC". And I did. I said the same thing about JC. GIve him a stable environment and watch him grow. Instead he had 4 or 5 OCs inf his first 5 years. Learning new terminology and bad playbooks. Its funny because the criticism of Scott Turner was that his playbook was close to Jim Zorn's last week. All that does is show how much more difficult it was for JC to look good here. 

Yes. Really. Your post didn’t read like this one does. This one is much more clear, concise and fair. 
 

Historically it is a thing. And it exists today. 

 

And there are some people who undoubtedly feel the way they do about Haskins because of it. But I believe the vast overwhelming majority of people don’t prefer Haskins because of the things Haskins has done. Not his skin. 

[Thinking Skins]

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Using a race argument to put your argument on some artificial high horse is both wild and ridiculous.  

Really? So which part is horse? You're saying that McNabb wasn't hated in Philly? You're saying that Moon, Cunningham, Peete, Williams etc didn't have to fight these things. You're saying that Jackson (the league MVP) didn't get graded by one of the top former GMs as a running back or WR. Heck Cooley called him a running back LAST WEEK criticizing his QB play. 

 

This league doens't give Black QBs the chance to grow. People say that "he'll be out of the league in 2 years" and they're probably true because when he is thrown in again and doesn't light the world on fire people will get impatient and go for a new shiny toy. This is not unique to Black QBs. Many lower round picks face similar struggles (I remember Kyle Orton vs Rex having this problem, and Gus vs Heath). But the thing is that many lower round QBs have the feature of having more crisp fundamentals rather than relying on pure athleticism - which is generally why guys get drafted high. 

 

But this discussion is frustrating because people want to say "Ron's not racist - he coached Cam". 1. I never said Ron was racist and coaching Cam doesn't prove he's not. I just said that Ron is not willing to work with Haskins through his mechanics problems, even though he clearly has done the best job leading this offense - he perfers his own guy. And that is a problem that is often faced by Black QBs. 

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

And there are some people who undoubtedly feel the way they do about Haskins because of it. But I believe the vast overwhelming majority of people don’t prefer Haskins because of the things Haskins has done. Not his skin. 

But no matter how fans feel. Haskins will get less chances because of his skin. That's just how it goes. Cam got one (almost minimum) offer this year. Is he a better QB than Flacco? Rivers? Foles? But those guys are getting multiple opportunities to work through their struggles. 

[KDawg]

I’m not sure why you believe Haskins has done the best job leading the offense. When Allen is 4 games in, if he hasn’t played better, I’ll absolutely hear that argument (or if he gets hurt again because he doesn’t know how to protect himself). 
 

But he looked okay, in large part due to his ability to move, in his limited action. 
 

I’m not going to say Allen is going to prove to be better. I have concerns with health. 

4 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Really? So which part is horse? You're saying that McNabb wasn't hated in Philly? You're saying that Moon, Cunningham, Peete, Williams etc didn't have to fight these things. You're saying that Jackson (the league MVP) didn't get graded by one of the top former GMs as a running back or WR. Heck Cooley called him a running back LAST WEEK criticizing his QB play. 

 

This league doens't give Black QBs the chance to grow. People say that "he'll be out of the league in 2 years" and they're probably true because when he is thrown in again and doesn't light the world on fire people will get impatient and go for a new shiny toy. This is not unique to Black QBs. Many lower round picks face similar struggles (I remember Kyle Orton vs Rex having this problem, and Gus vs Heath). But the thing is that many lower round QBs have the feature of having more crisp fundamentals rather than relying on pure athleticism - which is generally why guys get drafted high. 

 

But this discussion is frustrating because people want to say "Ron's not racist - he coached Cam". 1. I never said Ron was racist and coaching Cam doesn't prove he's not. I just said that Ron is not willing to work with Haskins through his mechanics problems, even though he clearly has done the best job leading this offense - he perfers his own guy. And that is a problem that is often faced by Black QBs. 

But no matter how fans feel. Haskins will get less chances because of his skin. That's just how it goes. Cam got one (almost minimum) offer this year. Is he a better QB than Flacco? Rivers? Foles? But those guys are getting multiple opportunities to work through their struggles. 

On my phone so deleting is extremely difficult... so addressing the point specific to me: 

 

Yes. Absolutely. But I don’t think that has any impact on the current conversation in regards to Haskins. It would be really, really ****ty if he didn’t get another opportunity elsewhere.

[DJHJR86]

12 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think he should be traded since he's not going to get a real chance here.  We've already damaged the kid's career enough.  I think running him out of town was the product of incompetence on the part of our coaches.  The whole process was so disingenuous and ugly that it's made Rivera look terrible.  This franchise is incapable of developing a young QB prospect, and continuing the attempt to do so is only going to get everyone fired in two years.

 

At what point will you start to reconsider the fact that maybe "the kid" was the one responsible for his undoing?  

[Est.1974]

My God, Rivera has given Haskins every chance to grow. I would say he gave him a fairly sizeable heads start at the job this offseason.

 

Most things in the public domain regarding Haskins since the minute we drafted him elude to maturity and professionalism deficiencies. I see little to counter that argument at present.

 

The biggest obstacle in Haskins’ growth appears to be Dwayne himself.

 

I think we’d all like to see him light it up so we didn’t need another ****ing QB. Sadly, that’s not happening right now and having sat through the first 4 games/weeks of the season I’m astounded people can’t see why. 
 

[BC-Redskins]

Do we think Ron is going to trade Haskins?

 

Hear me out :

now he has 3 qbs and for whatever reason gave starting job to Dwayne and then he’s dropped to third so theres something that Ron doesn’t like maybe 

attitude / not NFL standard ability who knows...

 

now Allen starts and Ron knows he’s a backup qb at best.
Gets hurt and then Smith is in and by keeping Smith in the game this proved to Ron he can play when called on this season...

 

so does he trade Haskins for whatever he can get ? To fill holes elsewhere 

 

play with Allen and smith as back up, then at end of season cut Smith and acquire HIS qb either by draft or FA

[Ashburn Dave]

One of these days soon I'm going to have to delete my account here and say goodbye to everyone before I say something I'll regret later. 

 

Football and sports in general used to be fun to watch but not anymore.

 

I always loved how our fan base bonded together against the forces of evil like the Cowpukes, Giants, Eagles, and Snyder.  But now days we walk on egg shells around each other and we're afraid to say anything bad against one of our players even if they are just playing poorly.

 

Some of you guys need to lighten up and remember this is just a game that this team plays and nothing more.

[Wildbunny]

33 minutes ago, Ashburn Dave said:

One of these days soon I'm going to have to delete my account here and say goodbye to everyone before I say something I'll regret later. 

 

Football and sports in general used to be fun to watch but not anymore.

 

I always loved how our fan based bonded together against the forces of evil like the Cowpukes, Giants, Eagles, and Snyder.  But now days we walk on egg shells around each other and we're afraid to say anything bad against one of our players even if they are just playing poorly.

 

Some of you guys need to lighten up and remember this is just a game that this team plays and nothing more.

It's not specific to ES but more on how society evolves nowadays.

That's just how it is now...

[Llevron]

hugging the line fellas 

 

(not that i disagree) 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

40 minutes ago, Ashburn Dave said:

One of these days soon I'm going to have to delete my account here and say goodbye to everyone before I say something I'll regret later. 
 

 

 

saying something you regret later means you are taking it too seriously. It’s a game played by people who are  “1 percenters”. 
 

Haskins is rich, set for life, whether he is the starter or not.  No need for anyone to feel sorry for him.

 

Quote

 

Football and sports in general used to be fun to watch but not anymore.
 

 

Then You’re taking it too seriously.

 

Quote

 

. 
But now days we walk on egg shells around each other and we're afraid to say anything bad against one of our players even if they are just playing poorly.

 

 

Pfft... I think you need to read the forum more often. There is plenty of criticism on the forums... 

 

 

Quote

 

Some of you guys need to lighten up and remember this is just a game that this team plays and nothing more.

Uh... yeah.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

47 minutes ago, Ashburn Dave said:

But now days we walk on egg shells around each other and we're afraid to say anything bad against one of our players even if they are just playing poorly.

 

 

When has this ever been true on ES, ever? lol...

[Spaceman Spiff]

58 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

At what point will you start to reconsider the fact that maybe "the kid" was the one responsible for his undoing?  

 

He won't.  It's unfathomable to him (and others) that Haskins did things to make the current staff want to move on from him.  It's the coaches fault and the front office's fault, he's made that abundantly clear.  There's no chance that Haskins could have ever done anything to lead to his demise as QB1 for the WFT.  

 

 

[KDawg]

Just now, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

He won't.  It's unfathomable to him (and others) that Haskins did things to make the current staff want to move on from him.  It's the coaches fault and the front office's fault, he's made that abundantly clear.  There's no chance that Haskins could have ever done anything to lead to his demise as QB1 for the WFT.  

 

 

I actually have seen a few of the Haskins crew admit to Haskins faults. Not to the extent most of us believe them to be, but they admit they are existent. There’s, almost literally, one guy that has yet to say he has any.

[DJHJR86]

10 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Using a race argument to put your argument on some artificial high horse is both wild and ridiculous.  

 

It's also factually incorrect on just about every level.  For every Haskins, there is a Josh Rosen.  For every Jamarcus Russel there is a Johnny Manziel.  For every "work ethic questions" there is a Paxton Lynch.  For every "football IQ questions" there is a Mitchell Trubisky.  The way these guys are treated goes nowhere outside of their local coverage, so I could see why people have this perception.  

 

Same goes for Chase Daniel.  Josh Johnson was in the league for 11 years on 10 different teams.  Tavaris Jackson, Geno Smith, Tyrod Taylor (who is somehow still conning teams into starting him after years of meh), RG3, and countless others disprove that notion.  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

But no matter how fans feel. Haskins will get less chances because of his skin. That's just how it goes. Cam got one (almost minimum) offer this year. Is he a better QB than Flacco? Rivers? Foles? But those guys are getting multiple opportunities to work through their struggles. 

 

Unless i am confusing you for someone else, I've seen you go multiple times about race relating to Haskins.

 

If you are truly just pointing out a straggler or two here that you think are crossing the line on the issue, then IMO you shoud do that.  Otherwise just making a long macro point about how African American QBs are judged unfairly and you throw Haskins as part of your point -- to me indeed suggests Rivera and the people here who are critical of Haskins fall into that category.

 

Rivera is on the forefront of inclusion if anything.  Women, minorities, the whole drill. 

 

You can say all day long this isn't you accusing Rivera to be racist.  But who the heck is benching Rivera?  It's not us on this thread.  It's Rivera.  So going on a rant about how Haskins will be judged unfairly -- to whom does that apply? 

 

I am listening to Keim right now.  He goes Alex was there first thing in the morning, 6:45 yesterday, suggesting Haskins was not.  Keim more or less said Haskins isn't lazy and he works. But he's not doing the extra things during the week that the really good Qbs do to prepare.   He doesn't see Haskins being the future here and thinks he won't be easy to trade.   He said they wanted to see him do more to elevate his game and help himself. 

 

[Andre The Giant]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, Andre The Giant said:

 

 

That to me was obvious.  Cooley stated the same.  It struck me that way too.  Coaches like to give kind excuses whether true or not to bench players especially if the idea might be to unload said player. 

 

But some here trashed him for it because hey how can Rivera be so into winning now, and isn't he contraditing himself in a rebuild year, etc, etc.   Like I said Rivera couldn't win this one with some.  Either he gets trashed for his soft peddle excuse by them taking it 100% literally or they hate the reasons leaked for why they are really doing it..

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

7 minutes ago, Andre The Giant said:

 

 

I took it differently. I took it as Rivera responding to the criticism that he didn't give Haskins enough time, and that 4 games isn't enough time. Galdi seems to be interpreting "I've seen enough" as "I've had enough".

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If you are truly just pointing out a straggler or two here that you think are crossing the line on the issue, then IMO you shoud do that.  Otherwise just making a long macro point about how African American QBs are judged unfairly and you throw Haskins as part of your point -- to me indeed suggests Rivera and the people here who are critical of Haskins fall into that category.

 

Rivera is on the forefront of inclusion if anything.  Women, minorities, the whole drill. 

I don't know what Rivera's problem with Haskins is. But the optics of it do not look good from my perspective. If you're listening to Sheehan's show today, did you hear his first caller about how Rivera's not the guy to build a franchise. He LUCKED into Cam. He didn't develop Cam. Cam came out as a dual threat QB. All he did was have a OC who was smart enough to let him play the ball he know how to play. That's not what RIvera's willing to do with Haskins though. We see that Haskins can perform well with a quick read offense and guess what, it helps our OL when he gets rid of the ball in 2.5 seconds or less. But Keim says that OCs are looking at the yards that should be there instead of what we actually got (this from Saunders and not Rivera). 

 

 

[Llevron]

There is always a race thing with anything in this country. Unconscious bias is a thing rather you believe it in or not. And so is very conscious bias. 

 

Fact is though, a lot of people don't believe it. AND it has nothing to do with the Washington Football Team at the moment so I find it to be a useless - and risky - tangent for us to dive into. Double so because no one can say that Haskins has really been a victim of it since hes has been in the NFL. Yes, there have been some things. When the (black) commentator called him a running QB right after the draft. Obvious. People were calling him dumb before he even took a snap and thats always been a sore point in our community. But ultimately it haven't affected his opportunity one provable bit here.

 

So I think we should let this one drop, at least in the Haskins thread. Cause without a doubt you are going to get some jerk off coming in here saying something he shouldn't if we keep this up. Its happens 100% of the time. Dont invite it. 

 

At the same time, if you wanna talk about this stuff we can do so in the tailgate and I will be happy to school your asses on this ****, too. I actually know stuff about that subject matter. Unlike football lol. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I don't know what Rivera's problem with Haskins is. 

 

 

 

Then you haven't been paying attention.  Either you honestly don't know because you haven't been paying attention or you're being intentionally obtuse.  It's been thoroughly discussed.

[Thinking Skins]

11 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

It's also factually incorrect on just about every level.  For every Haskins, there is a Josh Rosen.  For every Jamarcus Russel there is a Johnny Manziel.  For every "work ethic questions" there is a Paxton Lynch.  For every "football IQ questions" there is a Mitchell Trubisky.  The way these guys are treated goes nowhere outside of their local coverage, so I could see why people have this perception.  

 

Same goes for Chase Daniel.  Josh Johnson was in the league for 11 years on 10 different teams.  Tavaris Jackson, Geno Smith, Tyrod Taylor (who is somehow still conning teams into starting him after years of meh), RG3, and countless others disprove that notion.  

OK, go ahead and find the counterexamples to my point. And ask Doug Williams or Warren Moon or Randall Cunningham or any of these old school QBs about how hard it is. Ask McNabb about people who wanted him to change positions.  People act like I'm making this stuff up. Kordell Stewart had to fight with Bill Cowher and the Pitt media because he was tired of being slash and wanted to just be a QB

 

...but what about that other QB who they tried to move to TE....but what about that other QB who they said couldn't read defenses.....but what about that one Black QB who was a backup and then became a starter. 

 

Keep ignoring that this is an issue in this league. You can't be a mediocre Black starting QB in this league. You've either got to be on Deshaun Watson's level of greatness or you're getting replaced. 

[spjunkies]

3 minutes ago, Llevron said:

There is always a race thing with anything in this country. Unconscious bias is a thing rather you believe it in or not. And so is very conscious bias. 

 

Fact is though, a lot of people don't believe it. AND it has nothing to do with the Washington Football Team at the moment so I find it to be a useless - and risky - tangent for us to dive into. Double so because no one can say that Haskins has really been a victim of it since hes has been in the NFL. Yes, there have been some things. When the (black) commentator called him a running QB right after the draft. Obvious. People were calling him dumb before he even took a snap and thats always been a sore point in our community. But ultimately it haven't affected his opportunity one provable bit here.

 

So I think we should let this one drop, at least in the Haskins thread. Cause without a doubt you are going to get some jerk off coming in here saying something he shouldn't if we keep this up. Its happens 100% of the time. Dont invite it. 

 

At the same time, if you wanna talk about this stuff we can do so in the tailgate and I will be happy to school your asses on this ****, too. I actually know stuff about that subject matter. Unlike football lol. 

 

This, I already see the seeds being laid for this thread to turn ugly.