FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[KDawg]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I'm saying if he had to choose one.  And if we go by the theory that they would have taken Sweat in round 1 and Lock in round 2 in an ideal world, I really don't see how that improves our situation at all other than the extra 2020 2nd rounder... which we likely would have whiffed on based on recent history.

 

I think Lock is a decent QB, but I think any QB drafted to a lame duck regime is a mistake. The next guy is going to want to go shopping for his own groceries unless that QB is absolutely special. Or it's a late round developmental flyer that isn't expected to be a starter.

 

A Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson type of guy. Most guys aren't trying to replace them right away... Though, Lafleur seems to be hellbent on bouncing Rodgers but Rodgers won't let him  

 

 

[Est.1974]

Rivera was obliged to give Haskins a chance. He probably also felt compelled to give Smith that final shot too. 
 

I’d wager he wishes he had said screw you all and followed his head, brought Cam in and let him lead the team with Haskins and Allen fighting through camp for the back up berth. 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

Well, I think we know the most likely outcome there, given our recent history (i.e. no trade backs, or a trade back to later in the 2nd, where we'd whiff on the pick).

 

 

Maybe.  But I am not in a 2019 draft a QB or bust thought process.  You don't force a pick.  Going back to my marriage analogy, you don't just marry someone because hey I am 40 now or whatever, you got to genuinely fall for the person otherwise its not going to work.  You can build a team first and then go get a QB.  There is no one size fits all approach.

 

6 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

And I think Dan needs to stop interfering as well.  But the difference between us is I think 1) Dan made a better pick than Gruden would have made at QB, given the evidence so far

 

I don't see how you can come up with that conclusion, not knowing who Jay would have picked.  Your point would also have to be predicated on Haskins is a good player.  And I don't think he is.  Lets agree to disagree.

 

7 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

And I think Dan needs to stop interfering as well.  But the difference between us is I think 1) Dan made a better pick than Gruden would have made at QB, given the evidence so far

 

My key point on Dan on this idea is even if I saw it your way, i don't want Dan feeling empowered to override his FO.  That's not healthy.  Backing him on this just because you might agree with this time, empowers him to override the FO anytime he feels like.  It's a screwed up process if so.  

 

8 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Dan will never not have a say on his franchise QB, but hopefully next time (not that there should be a next time), Dan will at least make sure the coach doesn't hate the pick.

 

To me its not just about that.   If your scouts and top football guy tell you this dude isn't it.  Listen to them.  I recall the story years ago about how Dan was man crushing on Brady Quinn but to his credit he let the scouts talk him out of it.  He needs to stay out of the scouting process completely.  If the FO loved Haskins and Jay didn't want him and Dan broke the tie, I'd agree with your point.  But according to everyone just about who covered this story, that's not how it went down. 

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

I think Lock is a decent QB, but I think any QB drafted to a lame duck regime is a mistake. The next guy is going to want to go shopping for his own groceries unless that QB is absolutely special. Or it's a late round developmental flyer that isn't expected to be a starter.

 

A Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson type of guy. Most guys aren't trying to replace them right away... Though, Lafleur seems to be hellbent on bouncing Rodgers but Rodgers won't let him  

 

I don't know.  You look at McVay with Goff, Stefanski with Mayfield, Judge with Jones, Gruden with Carr, Gase with Darnold, etc.  There are plenty of examples of new coaches giving a QB drafted by the previous regime time to develop even though the QB isn't considered "special".

 

True about Rodgers though 😂

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I'm saying if he had to choose one.  And if we go by the theory that they would have taken Sweat in round 1 and Lock in round 2 in an ideal world, I really don't see how that improves our situation at all other than the extra 2020 2nd rounder... which we likely would have whiffed on based on recent history.

 

That's fine.  How long are you willing to give him?  I understand not everyone has the same breaking point.

 

More than 4 games for starters.  😁

 

At least 2 seasons.  This next off season should be very interesting.  It's not like he didn't telegraph that this season is an evaluating one.  Next off season they can react to those evaluations.  And they have an extra draft pick, maybe 2 and plenty of cap room to make some moves.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I don't know.  You look at McVay with Goff, Stefanski with Mayfield, Judge with Jones, Gruden with Carr, Gase with Darnold, etc.  There are plenty of examples of new coaches giving a QB drafted by the previous regime time to develop even though the QB isn't considered "special".

 

True about Rodgers though 😂

 

Sure. McVay liked Goff, though. So he went with him. You can tell by the way he operated with him. If Haskins and Rivera hit it off, we'd be seeing a different handling of this situation I would think. I bet the same could be said for all of them.

 

But this is a good point that the way I presented what I meant was poor.

 

When I say the new guy should shop for their own groceries, I don't necessarily mean that they are definitely replacing the guy. What I mean is that they will bring in the guy they want. And sometimes that guy is already on the roster. 

 

I think Judge is looking at Jones the way that Rivera looked at Haskins, but is giving him more room to operate due to the difference in how Jones handles himself versus Haskins. I know I'm not high on Haskins, but I'm definitely not high on Jones. Jones looks the part and moves the ball well. He has incredible yardage games. But that guy finds a way to turn the ball over in almost every big situation. I wouldn't bet against Judge looking to another guy AFTER this season if Jones doesn't turn the corner. But who knows. 

 

My statement about not replacing a guy that's truly special is that I couldn't imagine any coach coming in that would want to replace them.

 

The other guys you mentioned have to have the right coach come in. 

 

 

[justice98]

21 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

I'm in a lot of WFT groups online. Our fans are very much into the sensationalism and exaggerating things. Haskins was scapegoated all week after he was benched. 

 

I'm in a lot of such groups as well, and you probably know this already, 90% of those people have no idea what they're talking about and no mental energy should be paid to their ramblings other than for amusement.  lol

[HTTRDynasty]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Maybe.  But I am not in a 2019 draft a QB or bust thought process.  You don't force a pick.  Going back to my marriage analogy, you don't just marry someone because hey I am 40 now or whatever, you got to genuinely fall for the person otherwise its not going to work.  You can build a team first and then go get a QB.  There is no one size fits all approach.

 

I just don't see how you can justify to the fanbase your plan at QB being Keenum and McCoy.  You're just telegraphing a lost season without a plan for the future.

 

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I don't see how you can come up with that conclusion, not knowing who Jay would have picked.  Your point would also have to be predicated on Haskins is a good player.  And I don't think he is.  Lets agree to disagree.

 

I thought we had inside sources saying he would have picked Jones if he was forced to take a QB and Jones was available?  I just don't see who else he would have taken other than Lock.  Maybe Minshew, but that would have been the 5th or 6th round, which would have made it clear he wasn't the QBOTF.

 

And yes, we definitely disagree on Haskins as a prospect.

 

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

My key point on Dan on this idea is even if I saw it your way, i don't want Dan feeling empowered to override his FO.  That's not healthy.  Backing him on this just because you might agree with this time, empowers him to override the FO anytime he feels like.  It's a screwed up process if so.  

 

I don't want him to feel empowered either.  I'm just less inclined to believe things will change than you are.  And in this case, he's probably looking at the alternative to his decision like "what would you guys have done better?"

 

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

To me its not just about that.   If your scouts and top football guy tell you this dude isn't it.  Listen to them.  I recall the story years ago about how Dan was man crushing on Brady Quinn but to his credit he let the scouts talk him out of it.  He needs to stay out of the scouting process completely.  If the FO loved Haskins and Jay didn't want him and Dan broke the tie, I'd agree with your point.  But according to everyone just about who covered this story, that's not how it went down. 

 

I think this was a case of Dan knowing Gruden and co. would be gone in 2020 anyway, so he wanted to take his shot.  At the end of the day, it didn't do much harm, considering the alternatives.  The way the organization is currently behaving regarding Haskins is doing more damage than the actual pick did.

 

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

More than 4 games for starters.  😁

 

At least 2 seasons.  This next off season should be very interesting.  It's not like he didn't telegraph that this season is an evaluating one.  Next off season they can react to those evaluations.  And they have an extra draft pick, maybe 2 and plenty of cap room to make some moves.

 

I just find it fascinating that fans are willing to give up on a 23-year old kid after 4 starts in a new system, but not a 58-year old man who has made several serious missteps so far in the short time he's been here.  Not necessarily referring to you, since I know you've never been a fan of Haskins, but moreso the excuses that get made for one person over the other, when one has far more power, and therefore, far more responsibility, than the other.

[justice98]

8 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I don't know.  You look at McVay with Goff, Stefanski with Mayfield, Judge with Jones, Gruden with Carr, Gase with Darnold, etc.  There are plenty of examples of new coaches giving a QB drafted by the previous regime time to develop even though the QB isn't considered "special".

 

True about Rodgers though 😂

 

But let's just go through these.  Goff basically turned around overnight.  Wasn't any of this fumbling and stumbling around.  First game under McVay, 21-29, 306 and a TD.  Seven TDs, only 1 INT after the first month.  McVay wasn't fretting about whether his guy had it.

 

After the week 1 drubbing against BAL, Mayfield has been solid since.  So another example of the coach not requiring a bunch of patience. 

 

But the first two guys were the #1 overall picks, so such guys are gonna get every benefit of the doubt before teams give up.

 

David Carr was already a 3 time Pro Bowler and established veteran by the time Gruden got there in 2018.  He was developed.  There was no reason for Gruden to come in and want to move on from him.

 

And Gase is just an awful coach where anything he does should be used as a positive example of anything. If he's doing it, it's probably wrong. 

[GOATFrerotte]

6 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

But let's just go through these.  Goff basically turned around overnight.  Wasn't any of this fumbling and stumbling around.  First game under McVay, 21-29, 306 and a TD.  Seven TDs, only 1 INT after the first month.  McVay wasn't fretting about whether his guy had it.

 

After the week 1 drubbing against BAL, Mayfield has been solid since.  So another example of the coach not requiring a bunch of patience. 

 

But the first two guys were the #1 overall picks, so such guys are gonna get every benefit of the doubt before teams give up.

 

David Carr was already a 3 time Pro Bowler and established veteran by the time Gruden got there in 2018.  He was developed.  There was no reason for Gruden to come in and want to move on from him.

 

And Gase is just an awful coach where anything he does should be used as a positive example of anything. If he's doing it, it's probably wrong. 

 

That's the big unknown here that we'll never know except some glimpses of practice time. What these quarterbacks look like in preparation and behind the scenes with their knowledge of the game. I think Ron has seen the big picture of Haskins and just doesn't want to invest in it like McVay and Goff. Baker was good enough his rookie year that an investment in him is at least based on production. Haskins might not have preparation and he definitely doesn't have production. 

[HTTRDynasty]

17 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Sure. McVay liked Goff, though. So he went with him. You can tell by the way he operated with him. If Haskins and Rivera hit it off, we'd be seeing a different handling of this situation I would think. I bet the same could be said for all of them.

 

But this is a good point that the way I presented what I meant was poor.

 

When I say the new guy should shop for their own groceries, I don't necessarily mean that they are definitely replacing the guy. What I mean is that they will bring in the guy they want. And sometimes that guy is already on the roster. 

 

I think Judge is looking at Jones the way that Rivera looked at Haskins, but is giving him more room to operate due to the difference in how Jones handles himself versus Haskins. I know I'm not high on Haskins, but I'm definitely not high on Jones. Jones looks the part and moves the ball well. He has incredible yardage games. But that guy finds a way to turn the ball over in almost every big situation. I wouldn't bet against Judge looking to another guy AFTER this season if Jones doesn't turn the corner. But who knows. 

 

My statement about not replacing a guy that's truly special is that I couldn't imagine any coach coming in that would want to replace them.

 

The other guys you mentioned have to have the right coach come in. 

 

I see what you mean.  And it's disheartening, because Jared Goff's rookie season was worse than Haskins' by every metric out there, yet McVay was still able to turn him into a franchise QB.  The fact that Ron couldn't do the same with Haskins is telling, and his first major misstep was hiring Turner over KOC at offensive coordinator, which went a long way towards setting back the progress Haskins made last season, IMO.

 

It's unfortunate for Haskins he couldn't have the right coach come in for him.  I hope Rivera finds his right QB, but I'm not holding my breath, especially if he's planning to find that QB via the draft.

[Going Commando]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Sure. McVay liked Goff, though. So he went with him. You can tell by the way he operated with him. If Haskins and Rivera hit it off, we'd be seeing a different handling of this situation I would think. I bet the same could be said for all of them.

 

Rivera traded for Allen in March.  He knew all along Allen was going to be his QB.  There was no good faith effort to evaluate or develop Haskins.  It was a dog and pony show.  Rivera plays games.  That goes against his reputation but there it is.  This isn't about Dwaynes ****ing personality.  Dwayne is a completely vanilla young man who is desperately eager for success and for people to like him.  This is about a coach who wanted this job, had his own guy he wanted to bring along with him, and then played a bunch of games to scapegoat the other guy already on the team to shove the blame for the team's failures onto the player and off of his staff.

 

The offense was an absolute disaster on Sunday.  It was uncompetitive.  This coaching staff is clueless. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Rivera traded for Allen in March.  He knew all along Allen was going to be his QB.  There was no good faith effort to evaluate or develop Haskins.  It was a dog and pony show.  Rivera plays games.  That goes against his reputation but there it is.  This isn't about Dwaynes ****ing personality.  Dwayne is a completely vanilla young man who is desperately eager for success and for people to like him.  This is about a coach who wanted this job, had his own guy he wanted to bring along with him, and then played a bunch of games to scapegoat the other guy already on the team to shove the blame for the team's failures onto the player and off of his staff.

 

The offense was an absolute disaster on Sunday.  It was uncompetitive.  This coaching staff is clueless. 

 

Haskins is anything but vanilla in terms of personality. 

[HTTRDynasty]

11 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

But let's just go through these.  Goff basically turned around overnight.  Wasn't any of this fumbling and stumbling around.  First game under McVay, 21-29, 306 and a TD.  Seven TDs, only 1 INT after the first month.  McVay wasn't fretting about whether his guy had it.

 

Hmm, you ever think it might have something to due with the fact the Rams had a top 5 OL that year, with Woods and Kupp as weapons and MVP nominee Todd Gurley in the backfield?  McVay decided to surround his young QB with talent, and the results were predictable.  What did Rivera do?

 

13 minutes ago, justice98 said:

After the week 1 drubbing against BAL, Mayfield has been solid since.  So another example of the coach not requiring a bunch of patience. 

 

Another QB surrounded by far more talent than Haskins has.

 

14 minutes ago, justice98 said:

David Carr was already a 3 time Pro Bowler and established veteran by the time Gruden got there in 2018.  He was developed.  There was no reason for Gruden to come in and want to move on from him.

 

You must not know a lot of Raiders fans or frequent NFL Gen boards.  Fans were calling for his head in the offseason Gruden was hired.  But Gruden was smart and patient, and eventually surrounded Carr with weapons.

 

15 minutes ago, justice98 said:

And Gase is just an awful coach where anything he does should be used as a positive example of anything. If he's doing it, it's probably wrong. 

 

This is lazy thinking.  

 

The Darnold situation is actually another perfect example of what happens when you don't surround your QB with a talented supporting cast.  

[Going Commando]

16 minutes ago, justice98 said:

But let's just go through these.  Goff basically turned around overnight.  Wasn't any of this fumbling and stumbling around.  First game under McVay, 21-29, 306 and a TD.  Seven TDs, only 1 INT after the first month.  McVay wasn't fretting about whether his guy had it.

 

Amazing how much better these guys can look when they get great coaching and great offensive line play and get a bunch of offensive weapons to make plays and help carry the load.

[justice98]

5 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I see what you mean.  And it's disheartening, because Jared Goff's rookie season was worse than Haskins' by every metric out there, yet McVay was still able to turn him into a franchise QB.  The fact that Ron couldn't do the same with Haskins is telling, and his first major misstep was hiring Turner over KOC at offensive coordinator, which went a long way towards setting back the progress Haskins made last season, IMO.

 

It's unfortunate for Haskins he couldn't have the right coach come in for him.  I hope Rivera finds his right QB, but I'm not holding my breath, especially if he's planning to find that QB via the draft.

 

I was concerned when they brought in a defensive guy and an inexperienced OC.  That didn't seem like a great combination if Haskins was gonna make it. 

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Haskins is anything but vanilla in terms of personality. 

 

I know you think that.  I think you're wrong and I think this "lazy and uppity" narrative that our fan base has eaten up about the kid is nasty and says more about the fan base than it does about him.

[IrepDC]

35 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I'm in a lot of such groups as well, and you probably know this already, 90% of those people have no idea what they're talking about and no mental energy should be paid to their ramblings other than for amusement.  lol

Fair point.

[justice98]

6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Rivera traded for Allen in March.  He knew all along Allen was going to be his QB.  There was no good faith effort to evaluate or develop Haskins.  It was a dog and pony show.  Rivera plays games.  That goes against his reputation but there it is.  This isn't about Dwaynes ****ing personality.  Dwayne is a completely vanilla young man who is desperately eager for success and for people to like him.  This is about a coach who wanted this job, had his own guy he wanted to bring along with him, and then played a bunch of games to scapegoat the other guy already on the team to shove the blame for the team's failures onto the player and off of his staff.

 

The offense was an absolute disaster on Sunday.  It was uncompetitive.  This coaching staff is clueless. 

 

The only two QBs under contract were Haskins and Smith, and Smith was months from being cleared.  Trading for Allen was the prudent, logical thing to do.

[IrepDC]

We have to hope Scott Turner is learning fast regardless of who the QB is. I liked some of the short passes to supplement the run game, but he needs some type of shot downfield with the same play action so defenses can stop stacking us. We averaged like 2 yards per play yesterday. Scott has to do a lot better.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I know you think that.  I think you're wrong and I think this "lazy and uppity" narrative that our fan base has eaten up about the kid is nasty and says more about the fan base than it does about him.

I think the lack of admitting fault in a prospect they loveD and running with the Haskins did nothing wrong narrative says more about the people in the fan base that think it than it does the franchise.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

Its almost as if he was going what was required to keep the job.

At least somebody around here is.

[Going Commando]

4 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

The only two QBs under contract were Haskins and Smith, and Smith was months from being cleared.  Trading for Allen was the prudent, logical thing to do.

 

So you sign a ****ing Brian Hoyer.  You don't trade picks for back up QBs.  And you certainly don't undermine any good faith attempt to develop a QB prospect by immediately and intentionally acquiring his replacement.

[justice98]

5 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

This is lazy thinking.  

 

The Darnold situation is actually another perfect example of what happens when you don't surround your QB with a talented supporting cast.  

 

It's accurate thinking.  The last 6(!) Gase coached offensive units have ranked 21, 24, 25, 31, 32, 31. How do you keep getting jobs? He's the poster child for why the Rooney Rule exists.  At some point, you are what your results say you are.  Players can't wait to get out from under him.

[HTTRDynasty]

Just now, justice98 said:

The last 6(!) Gase coached offensive units have ranked 21, 24, 25, 31, 32, 31. How do you keep getting jobs? He's the poster child for why the Rooney Rule exists.  At some point, you are what your results say you are.  Players can't wait to get out from under him.

 

Sure, but that's just further evidence the fault lies with him, not Darnold, which is the point.  Those other guys are good examples of how to build around a QB you inherit.  His example is how not to do it.

 

Which is the path Rivera seems to be taking.