FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[KDawg]

34 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

So yall just gonna keep tap dancing around my point to reply with something I'm not talking about? Lol

I don’t understand what point you’re making with developmental cycles in regards to guys who have totally different skill sets and demeanors. So I’m not sure how to reply to a point that is non-existent...

[megared]

2 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

It was a 5 year deal for a 26 year old player, high end WR's rarely hit the market and are probably the 2nd most difficult position to draft based on the hit rates that have been posted on this site.

 

An NFL rebuild is 2 to 3 years, getting another #1 to play opposite of Terry would be a welcomed addition so I think adding high end young players is  part of the process of rebuilding.

 

You don't see how that could affect replenishing a talent depleted team?  Especially when that apparently was THE FA strategy coming into this season?  When you're already carrying a few terrible contracts?

 

He's been inconsistent on what he's doing since day 1, or 2. 

 

5 minutes ago, Andre The Giant said:

Snyder pushed for Amari and the contract.  Rivera went along with it (aka Shanny and McNabb).  Check out the Julie Donaldson interview from earlier this year. IMO, we got lucky Amari said No. 

 

Ron does something we like = Ron's Team

Ron does something we don't like = mean ol' Dan

 

Either the guy has operational control, or he doesn't.  Which is it?

 

 

 

[IrepDC]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t understand what point you’re making with developmental cycles in regards to guys who have totally different skill sets and demeanors. So I’m not sure how to reply to a point that is non-existent...

Because you can look at how they were handled outside of their skillset and see we have a cultural problem. You literally wrote out all the things we did wrong already so you agree with me on that part.

 

Our only disagreement is how much fault Haskins has in the situation, I think. We both agree we continuously put our QBs in bad situations. That was my point. We need to change the development cycle / strategy.

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

Because you can look at how they were handled outside of their skillset and see we have a cultural problem. You literally wrote out all the things we did wrong already so you agree with me on that part.

 

Our only disagreement is how much fault Haskins has in the situation, I think. We both agree we continuously put our QBs in bad situations. That was my point. We need to change the development cycle / strategy.

Who says we haven’t changed it, though? You know something those dudes in that post all had in common? They were drafted by a regime who wanted them and developed.

 

Haskins wasn’t. 
 

That IS a cultural issue.

 

It is NOT a Rivera issue.

[IrepDC]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Who says we haven’t changed it, though? You know something those dudes in that post all had in common? They were drafted by a regime who wanted them and developed.

 

Haskins wasn’t. 
 

That IS a cultural issue.

 

It is NOT a Rivera issue.

It becomes a Rivera issue if he continues the trend of back handed moves, hidden agendas, and scapegoating players. He's off to a bad start honestly. 

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

He absolutely did not give Haskins a real chance.  No earnest attempt at developing a QB prospect ends after four games.  No earnest attempt begins by hedging and immediately acquiring his replacement.  And it's one thing to trash a first round pick a year after you draft him to draft Kyler Murray--especially when you've known him since high school and know exactly how you'll develop him and build the team around him.  It's another thing to trash one for Kyle Allen.

 

 

I generally would agree, but think that also depends on the reasons. If it's purely an issue with improving skills and the guy getting his technique and ability read defenses up to scratch then IMO you're 100% right. Those are all things that are going to come with time. 

 

But if it's an attitude/maturity/work ethic issue then I can see it. If a HC has a QB who the he truly thinks has a poor attitude, has maturity issues and likely isn't going to improve on those then it's a different story. Yeah, it's still a really short stint and I was surprised (I figured Haskins would get the season). But it sounds like Rivera had seen enough and decided to just nip it in the bud and be done with it. And to be honest, judging by the way Haskins has reacted, I'm somewhat more inclined to potentially agree with him.

 

Was it truly the right move for the long term? No way to know right now, but it was Rivera's call to make and he made it. I mean...isn't that what many people have been clamoring for for years? A HC who isn't beholden to Dan's whims and who has the power to make the calls without interference?

[KDawg]

9 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

It becomes a Rivera issue if he continues the trend of back handed moves, hidden agendas, and scapegoating players. He's off to a bad start honestly. 

You were correct up until the the word "trend".

[boston skins fan]

41 minutes ago, megared said:

 

Ron extended Cooper that contract.  It was reported to be MORE than the 5 year $100 M he ultimately got.  Amari saved us from ourselves.  

 

With all of the holes on O, he thought it was a good idea, to pay that guy THAT money.  Despite the fact there were no guarantees we'd be able to get him the ball frequently enough to EVER justify that contract. 

 

If we were ever 'rebuilding', why would that contract be in the realm of possibilities?

 

 

To be fair im a fan of a NY Ranger team thats going through a rebuild(a transparent one, they sent a letter while fighting for a playoff spot 2 yrs ago saying they were going to blow it up and then proceded to trade 4 players including the captain a month later) that signed a high price free agent and it worked out better then it could have imagined.  Free agency should help and push the rebuild forward and move faster if done correctly.

 

Issue with this team in the past is it has rarely been done right or worked out well.

 

Also the front office in NY has gained the trust of the fans since then with the moves and the way they built up through the draft.

 

Rivera needs to build up that trust with the fan base and owner that his moves have a purpose and that he has a plan in place.

 

This comparison is strange i know but also apt because the owner of the rangers is considered one of the best by hockey fans because he lets the hockey guys do theyre thing.  But as the owner of the knicks hes by far the worst in the NBA and has his mits all over the franchise.

[GOATFrerotte]

9 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I was told that the protection was fine.  That the weapons were fine.  That the playcalling was fine.  That Haskins was the one holding everyone back and if we bench him and run Allen then the offense would be fine and we'd start winning some games.

 

The protection was decent before this game. But the Rams abused our oline. You realize some weeks the protection will be better than others and what the Rams did to us doesn't mean other teams did the same

 

[method man]

26 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

It becomes a Rivera issue if he continues the trend of back handed moves, hidden agendas, and scapegoating players. He's off to a bad start honestly. 

Has he done that with Apke, Collins, Martin, etc? No. Dwayne must be beyond redeemable because he is mot putting in the work while the others may be

[Spaceman Spiff]

48 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

I watched the film from yesterday. How come you guys aren't getting on Smith for missing 2 open WRs on 4th down to throw into double coverage? Why aren't you getting on Allen for checking down when the middle crosser was open? Basically all the things these guys were supposed to do better at, they didn't. Maybe it was Donald. I am willing to see more of Allen, but Smith is done.

 

Again, the sensationalism over Haskins is not something I will participate in. His passing numbers were comparable with other developing QBs. You are so sold on the scapegoat that you have to act like he doesn't have NFL talent now. That's another reason we always get fleeced in trades. We have this weird habit of tanking our players value. More loser culture.

 

Because Smith hasn't played in close to 700 days?  That was a layup.  I didn't expect Smith to do great things yesterday, just that the guy can walk let alone compete on an NFL field is a miracle.  

 

I'm not saying Haskins is to blame for how bad this team is, I'm not saying he's a scapegoat.  He's just bad.  

[Darrell Green Fan]

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

This was the perfect summation and agree 100%. There is nothing I can disagree with.

 

I would probably delete this, since it clearly violates TK's strongly worded No-Politics-in-the-Stadium warning.

Yeah I was obviously not aware. The mod deleted my post, can you please edit my quote here?  Thanks

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

This is going to be a longish post, so forgive me.

Wow, that was as long as either one of my or @thesubmittedone's posts.  

 

I think it was a great history lesson, mixed with some conjecture.

 

To the question why Haskins was benched, I think Mitch Tischler summarized it best: Dwayne did something to piss of the head coach.  It wasn't just, and couldn't have just been, his play.  Which wasn't great.  But it wasn't just that.  The reporting indicates (as you mentioned) lack of effort and work ethic after he won the job.  I dunno.  Whatever it was, he pissed off Ron, and he was out of there. 

 

One good thing is it is absolutely clear Ron is in charge.  Like him or not, he has the authority to make the moves he's making, and without interference.  

 

Personally, and this is complete and total conjecture, but I think something specific, and I mean a conversation or a specific act, took place the Sunday night or Monday morning of the Browns game.  Because in the ~20 hours between Ron's post-game presser and his Monday presser, the story changed entirely.  And I doubt it was JUST looking at the film.  The entire tone changed.  It went from "growing pains, sticking by my guy" to "there is a limit as to how long this can go on."  I don't think Ron makes those kinds of changes lightly.

 

It could have been anything.  It could have been a conversation with Dwayne, it could have been a conversation with Turner, another player, who knows, but SOMETHING happened in that 20 hours which changed the plan.  And maybe I'm naïve, I think the complete suckitude of the NFC East was not it. I think that's a cover.  I might be wrong, but I just think they are using it as a convenient excuse. 

 

I like the fact Ron can make this decision.  In years past, Dan would have potentially inserted himself and forced a different decision.  If the WFT trades Dwayne for a conditional 4th round pick, Dan is going to look like more of an idiot than he already does.

 

Kyle Allen better be healthy enough to play next week, because Alex Smith isn't ready.  He's a remarkable human being, but he's just not ready.  I do think he'll get ready with more reps, but he's not there yet.  

[megared]

6 minutes ago, method man said:

Has he done that with Apke, Collins, Martin, etc? No. Dwayne must be beyond redeemable because he is mot putting in the work while the others may be

 

Yea, if Ron thought those three are/were redeemable, I question his assessment of 'redeemable-ness' as well.  

[IrepDC]

5 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Because Smith hasn't played in close to 700 days?  That was a layup.  I didn't expect Smith to do great things yesterday, just that the guy can walk let alone compete on an NFL field is a miracle.  

 

I'm not saying Haskins is to blame for how bad this team is, I'm not saying he's a scapegoat.  He's just bad.  

Wasn't the point of playing Smith and Allen to better evaluate players? Both were more conservative than Haskins and we didn't pass beyond 10 yards until the 4th quarter. Something isn't adding up. I'm not really trying to rag on Smith and Allen as much as I'm pointing out how weak Rivera's scapegoat was. Haskins was supposedly holding the offense back, but he seems like the best arm to get the ball to our players. Maybe Allen will look better this week though. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, megared said:

 

Yea, if Ron thought those three are/were redeemable, I question his assessment of 'redeemable-ness' as well.  

 

I think the problem with those three guys is that what's behind them is actually much worse, not arguably worse or better. Just worse.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just now, IrepDC said:

Wasn't the point of playing Smith and Allen to better evaluate players? Both were more conservative than Haskins and we didn't pass beyond 10 yards until the 4th quarter. Something isn't adding up. I'm not really trying to rag on Smith and Allen as much as I'm pointing out how weak Rivera's scapegoat was. Haskins was supposedly holding the offense back, but he seems like the best arm to get the ball to our players. Maybe Allen will look better this week though. 

 

Strongest arm?  Sure, Haskins has a cannon.  But he's surely made some bad throws to wide open targets.  

 

And as a lot of people have been saying here, again...it's not always about what's going on during the games on Sundays.  The decision to bench him is also coming from what is happening in Ashburn during the week.  Can't have an honest conversation about Haskins if we're not talking about that, too.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

Wasn't the point of playing Smith and Allen to better evaluate players? Both were more conservative than Haskins and we didn't pass beyond 10 yards until the 4th quarter. Something isn't adding up. I'm not really trying to rag on Smith and Allen as much as I'm pointing out how weak Rivera's scapegoat was. Haskins was supposedly holding the offense back, but he seems like the best arm to get the ball to our players. Maybe Allen will look better this week though. 

 

The point of playing Smith was that he's Alex Smith and coming back off of a leg injury. Of course, he wouldn't have played if Allen knew how to get down. Allen looked fine. But if he can't slide I'd concur that Haskins is a better option. Being able to run means nothing if you're getting hit like he was yesterday. 

[Darrell Green Fan]

LOL that some here feel that game was any form of vindication for Haskins. He never faced this sort of pressure, had he played the results would have been even worse if you can imagine that.

 

 

[GOATFrerotte]

2 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

Wasn't the point of playing Smith and Allen to better evaluate players? Both were more conservative than Haskins and we didn't pass beyond 10 yards until the 4th quarter. Something isn't adding up. I'm not really trying to rag on Smith and Allen as much as I'm pointing out how weak Rivera's scapegoat was. Haskins was supposedly holding the offense back, but he seems like the best arm to get the ball to our players. Maybe Allen will look better this week though. 

 

It's only been one game in the pouring rain, with a dominant d line, with a qb that hasn't played since almost losing his leg 2 years ago. Let's let Allen play in normal weather this week and see how the offense looks. 

[justice98]

1 hour ago, IrepDC said:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/curtisrush/2019/10/01/no-one-should-really-be-surprised-by-josh-allens-struggles/

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/robreischel/2020/08/30/jordan-love-is-struggling-but-remember-aaron-rodgers-was-once-a-mess-himself/amp/

 

https://chargerswire.usatoday.com/2020/08/22/chargers-qb-justin-herbert-faces-struggles-against-first-team-defense/

 

http://local12.com/sports/bengals/after-brilliant-first-day-throwing-in-front-of-media-burrow-struggles-a-bit-in-red-zone-cincinnati-nfl-pro-football-joe-zac-burrow-tyler-boyd-sam-hubbard-xavier-sua-filo-michael-jordan

 

Articles about recent developmental QBs struggling, but I'm not comparing the QBs. I'm comparing how the teams handled their QBs struggles. Look at how the narratives of their struggles were portrayed. The teams all had their guys back and made it an intention to rally around, just like I said, their young QBs. Now compare that environment to Washington. How often do we get leaks tearing down our young QBs whether it's Haskins, Cousins, Griffin, Campbell, or Ramsey. Our culture is trash and a big reason we will never develop QB talent here.

 

Those comparisons don't really have much to do with Haskins situation.  Only one of those wasnt talking about training camp struggles.  I don't think people were killing Haskins for struggling in TC practices.  It's the games that matter.  And even then, Allen had enough of a skill set to make enough plays to buy himself some time with the organization until he got it together.  Because he was running around scoring TDs with his legs.  But even then, he had 2 years of folks questioning whether he was the guy. 

 

And then, for every 4 of those, there's probably a dozen of developmental QBs that struggle early and stayed struggling and never made it because they never were going to make it.  I don't think these comparisons are really helpful in making the argument that Haskins is getting a raw deal.  Every situation's kind of different, so other team's will handle it differently. 

 

And I don't recall leaks tearing down Cousins, Campbell, Ramsey.  I think that's overstated.  But if the QB is a knucklehead, I'd rather know that sooner, rather than later.  That's an impediment to being successful that usually doesn't go away.  That was Griffin's problem, and seems like it might be Haskins problem.  There's nothing about Jordan Love or Burrow not being the in playbook enough.  We've heard that two years in a row about Haskins. 

[GOATFrerotte]

1 minute ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

LOL that some here feel that game was any form of vindication for Haskins. He never faced this sort of pressure, had he played the results would have been even worse if you can imagine that.

 

 

 

Haha, I laugh at that too that people think that statistically the worst qb in the league would have fared better in the downpour against that d line. Of course he would have been terrible and since he has 4 games under his belt we might have scored 13 points instead of 10.

[IrepDC]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

The point of playing Smith was that he's Alex Smith and coming back off of a leg injury. Of course, he wouldn't have played if Allen knew how to get down. Allen looked fine. But if he can't slide I'd concur that Haskins is a better option. Being able to run means nothing if you're getting hit like he was yesterday. 

Allen also has to push the ball down field more, but I suspect it was the limited sample size and poor blocking. He had a few mid ranged opportunities yesterday, but he chose the short route EVERY time. I'd like to see him with more chances, but if he looks as conservative passing as yesterday, Haskins is the best option to evaluate our players. We know Haskins will get the ball to Terry, and he already has chemistry with guys like Inman and Sims. I just want the evaluation based on football and not politics.

[KDawg]

Just now, IrepDC said:

Allen also has to push the ball down field more, but I suspect it was the limited sample size and poor blocking. He had a few mid ranged opportunities yesterday, but he chose the short route EVERY time. I'd like to see him with more chances, but if he looks as conservative passing as yesterday, Haskins is the best option to evaluate our players. We know Haskins will get the ball to Terry, and he already has chemistry with guys like Inman and Sims. I just want the evaluation based on football and not politics.

 

It was a limited sample size. Allen should push the ball down the field more. But he looked pretty similar to Haskins throwing the ball with the added benefit of running effectively. Almost the same. Haskins looked okay throwing the ball at times, but he couldn't do much with his legs. Haskins being a similar thrower of the ball without the ability to create does not make him a better option. 

[IrepDC]

2 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

 

It's only been one game in the pouring rain, with a dominant d line, with a qb that hasn't played since almost losing his leg 2 years ago. Let's let Allen play in normal weather this week and see how the offense looks. 

Agreed I'll give Allen more time to show what he can do. He is supposed to be the experienced guy in this offense, Ron's guy, and Turner's guy. I suspect Allen will be our next negative energy dumpster though.

Just now, KDawg said:

 

It was a limited sample size. Allen should push the ball down the field more. But he looked pretty similar to Haskins throwing the ball with the added benefit of running effectively. Almost the same. Haskins looked okay throwing the ball at times, but he couldn't do much with his legs. Haskins being a similar thrower of the ball without the ability to create does not make him a better option. 

Haskins' arm is far superior to Allen's. Arm > legs on a QB.