FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[SoCalSkins]

6 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

 

I thought that too, but the other stats that he measured don't rank out that way if you factor the whole season to date..

Stuff like intended air yards. His avg is higher than several other players across the season.

 

 

Figured it out for you. He posted that about an hour after our game ended. So first half of the late games. It’s a specific snapshot at point in time. 5:27 PM eastern on Sunday. 
 

 

[FootballZombie]

2 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

 

 

Cool, Thx. Good to know I'm not crazy cuz those numbies were not making sense w/ full week 4 game data.

 

Felt like I came across a hippie brain for a sec. My math aint THAT bad.

[Est.1974]

If Haskins plays this week, we need to stop mothering him and stop playing safe. He needs to be thrown on the field and significantly tested by Rivera. 
 

None of this baby steps bull****.

[KDawg]

5 hours ago, ILikeBilly said:

I still have hope, but over the next four games, he needs to be at 65% completions or better with about a 2 to 1 td to int ratio and at least 2 wins.  If he isn't close to this in the next 4 games combined, I will begin to lose faith.  The next 4 games are much more favorable match ups.

The completion % at 65 is low if he’s throwing mostly stuff out to the flats and short slants. If that’s the gameplan it needs to be in the 70s.

 

If he’s spreading the ball around various zones and areas, 65% is very good. Hell, for Haskins spreading the ball around and using the different spots on the field I’d be excited with a 60% completion rate.
 

61% throwing the passes that he has been isn’t great. 
 

Compare that to Wilson at 75% (yes comparing to the best QB in the league is a tough look) but he’s spreading the ball around... Herbert at 73.6%.

 

He needs to be better but I don’t think we can give a specific % for him. It depends what they are trying to do. But if it’s like last week over 70% is almost a necessity.

 

 

 

 

 

[heyholetsgogrant]

6 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:

What we need to do is cut bait much sooner and fish for the next one faster. It’s a numbers game at this point and the more prospects we bring in, test then dump the faster we will find the answer. We have been getting in long term relationships with losers when we should be speed dating. 

Exactly.
 

I’ve been saying this for years, we should be drafting and bringing in rookie QB’s every year.  With the amount of busts every year and how important the position is, I wouldn’t be surprised if this starts happening league wide. Look at Bill Bellchick, he doesn’t look so good as a coach without a stud QB.

[Thinking Skins]

37 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The completion % at 65 is low if he’s throwing mostly stuff out to the flats and short slants. If that’s the gameplan it needs to be in the 70s.

 

If he’s spreading the ball around various zones and areas, 65% is very good. Hell, for Haskins spreading the ball around and using the different spots on the field I’d be excited with a 60% completion rate.
 

61% throwing the passes that he has been isn’t great. 
 

Compare that to Wilson at 75% (yes comparing to the best QB in the league is a tough look) but he’s spreading the ball around... Herbert at 73.6%.

 

He needs to be better but I don’t think we can give a specific % for him. It depends what they are trying to do. But if it’s like last week over 70% is almost a necessity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If Haskins has 65% and is getting 200+ yards a game and is having turnover free games and he gets benched that's going to cause a firestorm in the city and I don't mean with the players.  I can go into the demographics of how it looks to the city that also did JC wrong and RG3 wrong - no matter how good or bad these two were, the city remembers that they were done wrong and the way they were treated caused an uproar. 

 

I think the best thing Haskins has going for him is Alex Smith. I really don't care what the playcalls were on each play last game. I don't care about his missed reads and the plays he could have had. I think Haskins knows that he is in a system that he's being set to fail. So how does he succeed? He can do what Alex Smith did. Rather than trying to be this athletic QB with all the talent in the world and who could light the league on fire, he did just enough to stay relevant. He kept improving on his mechanics and his accuracy but through all the different head coaches and different offensive coordinators, Alex was able to grab control of the situation and pretty much write a manual on how to survive as a QB. 

 

Now Haskins is his first real pupil. That title could go to Mahomes but Mahones didn't have coaches eager to replace him. And when I think about it as a situation where Ron is probably trying to replace Haskins - whether he told Haskins that or not, Haskins may have talked to Smith and asked about the team drafting all those other QBs and the constant threat of benching him, him being hurt, and rising above it all over and over again. His style of play is something that drove fans crazy but it led to him going 13-3 and the 6-2-1 in his last two seasons in SF and then 11-4, 8-7, 11-5, 11-4, 9-6 in KC and then 6-4 in Was. This was all after the uncertainty of Mike Nolin, Mike Singultary and Jim Tomsula as head coaches. 

 

People think we need a superstar playmaking QB, but Andy Reid called for Smith as his first QB in KC because he knew what he (Reid) could do with a QB who could just put the ball in his playmakers hands, and not enough QBs can do that for one reason or another. And if you can get that and build a defense around that type of offense you can win some games. 

 

I think that's the blueprint Haskins needs to be working from because no matter what Rivera thinks of him, it leads to us staying competitive. will get at least half the fan base behind him, and probably half the locker room behind him. Its weird because this is normally the play of the lower round pick who's trying to beat out a first round QB (Gus vs Heath, Orton vs Rex for ex), but I think Haskins is working it to perfection this season. 

[KDawg]

I’m amazed at the lengths you go to excuse poor play.

[Going Commando]

12 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

This from Bullock, who loved Haskins before the draft. I think he's still cool with him but its not hard to read he has some concerns in the soup.

 

Why is Bullock pretending that running tests on a quarterback in a regular season game instead of making good play calls and attempting to win is good and normal coaching?

[heyholetsgogrant]

23 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

If Haskins has 65% and is getting 200+ yards a game and is having turnover free games and he gets benched that's going to cause a firestorm in the city and I don't mean with the players.  I can go into the demographics of how it looks to the city that also did JC wrong and RG3 wrong - no matter how good or bad these two were, the city remembers that they were done wrong and the way they were treated caused an uproar. 

 

Now Haskins is his first real pupil. That title could go to Mahomes but Mahones didn't have coaches eager to replace him. And when I think about it as a situation where Ron is probably trying to replace Haskins - whether he told Haskins that or not, Haskins may have talked to Smith and asked about the team drafting all those other QBs and the constant threat of benching him, him being hurt, and rising above it all over and over again. His style of play is something that drove fans crazy but it led to him going 13-3 and the 6-2-1 in his last two seasons in SF and then 11-4, 8-7, 11-5, 11-4, 9-6 in KC and then 6-4 in Was. This was all after the uncertainty of Mike Nolin, Mike Singultary and Jim Tomsula as head coaches. 

 

I think that's the blueprint Haskins needs to be working from because no matter what Rivera thinks of him, it leads to us staying competitive. will get at least half the fan base behind him, and probably half the locker room behind him. Its weird because this is normally the play of the lower round pick who's trying to beat out a first round QB (Gus vs Heath, Orton vs Rex for ex), but I think Haskins is working it to perfection this season. 

The completion % of Haskins last game was misleading, he was throwing lots of slants, check downs, and shorter passes.  It was dumbed down playbook.  How many plays has Haskins made in the 11 games he’s atarted? At the end of the day, Riveria was brought in to win football games, a slant/check down passing offense is not going to win games.  We have a chance to win this division with how bad it is.

[Skins199021]

I can't believe the QB that our coaching staff said not to draft, but then got drafted because our owner liked him, is actually just not good...

 

I don't know why people sit here in denial. He is terrible, he doesn't even remotely pass the eye test. He blatantly has an awful throwing motion. It will be embarrassing when Tua becomes good

[Est.1974]

32 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I think the best thing Haskins has going for him is Alex Smith. 

Alex Smith didn’t even have Alex Smith going for him when he was starting here. Functional doesn’t pass the test in these parts. 
 

I’m all in favour of a Rivera exposing more of Haskins’ weaknesses. More chance of finding out if we’ve got a player that way.
 

I would rather we got blown out Sunday but got more glimpses of progress from Haskins, rather than dink and dunk 300 yards, 2 score defeat that tells us little more than we knew before kick off.

[Thinking Skins]

 

3 minutes ago, heyholetsgogrant said:

The completion % of Haskins last game was misleading, he was throwing lots of slants, check downs, and shorter passes.  It was dumbed down playbook.  How many plays has Haskins made in the 11 games he’s atarted? At the end of the day, Riveria was brought in to win football games, a slant/check down passing offense is not going to win games.  We have a chance to win this division with how bad it is.

Why does that matter? Is Drew Brees a bad QB because he throws short passes? Goff? Newton? Carr? Mahomes? Big Ben? The check down offense is still moving the ball and getting us into field goal range and to the red zone with chances to score. But its bad because he does it? 

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Why is Bullock pretending that running tests on a quarterback in a regular season game instead of making good play calls and attempting to win is good and normal coaching?

 

I presume they got an open mind about Haskins but haven't landing hard pro or con.  I think the franchise is set for the kill if he's the right dude -- which I know you think he is, I personally don't know.    So gauging Haskins makes sense to me if he's seen by them as a wild card.  Arguably that's more important than winning.  If they got a QB I don't think the rebuild is a mile away with an aggressive off season next year. 

 

As for Scott Turner's playcalling.  I doubt Rivera complemented him this week for no reason.  Rivera seems brutally honest including about Turner who he did openly criticize in week 1.  For me personally, I have to go slowly through the coaches tape and make my own mind about it.  I did it years back with Jay.  I was critical of Jay's run-pass decisions but you can see if you slow down the tape the play design was often really good, guys were open a lot.  I posted clips of it at the time in different threads.

 

I don't dismiss Orlovsky's critique of it.  I'll check it out eventually. 

[FootballZombie]

Agree w/ a lot of what I am seeing here. Not every team is the ravens. We win a decent handfull of ball games with that recent offensive performance and a better push from our D, who is the backbone of this squad.

 

Haskins does not need gaudy numbers. Just has to guide the Offense in the right direction. He did that last week. They basically gave him an ultimatum for his job against B-more and he passed that test. I'll be interested to see what kind of gameplan they have in store for next week. I think that will be telling.

 

Hopefully we get Young back and I get to rest easy... if zombies slept at all that is

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Alex Smith didn’t even have Alex Smith going for him when he was starting here. Functional doesn’t pass the test in these parts. 
 

I’m all in favour of a Rivera exposing more of Haskins’ weaknesses. More chance of finding out if we’ve got a player that way.
 

 

Are we about "finding out if we've got a player" or assuming we have a player and working on improving him as a player? Because I'd hope its the later. Its a similar reason that Gibson, who I think is a really good back, has had his load limited these first few games because we don't want to overwhelm him too early in the season. We're running an offense that is similar to what Ohio State ran with Haskins that he excelled at, and it led to him being a first round pick, as well as much of their offense getting drafted so I'd say that Haskins can execute this offense and let the players shine. 

 

What's the point of having Haskins chug it deep 3 times every drive and then punting? We want to say "see, he needs to improve his deep ball accuracy", but then we don't get to see Gibson as a receiver or any other guys who can't run the post route because that's all we want to expose is Haskins weaknesses. 

 

Just now, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

I would rather we got blown out Sunday but got more glimpses of progress from Haskins, rather than dink and dunk 300 yards, 2 score defeat that tells us little more than we knew before kick off.

Why does that matter? I don't want a moral victory but I do want to build a team. If Haskins isn't the guy then he isn't the guy. But a game where we can get the ball into the hands of our playmakers has the ability to develop them, as well as helping Haskins grow into this offense. Maybe we will continue to add plays to the offense, and maybe as Haskins's confidence in this offense improves, we'll see him take more shots and trust his guys more, but we are a young team that is in its 4th game under Rivera and 4th offensive gameplan under Turner. 

 

It Takes Time. And I stand by that I think the Alex Smith plan of developing a QB is the right course of action for Haskins. 

[Skinsinparadise]

49 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

. I think Haskins knows that he is in a system that he's being set to fail. So how does he succeed?

 

The theme with Haskins here is bad coaching is dooming him?  My comment yesterday about our debates where I included Bruce in the mix wasn't a shot -- my point was you seem to have a lot more patence than most of us about players, FO, you name it.  Why not for Ron?  Unless i am misreading your take?

 

49 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I think that's the blueprint Haskins needs to be working from because no matter what Rivera thinks of him, it leads to us staying competitive. will get at least half the fan base behind him, and probably half the locker room behind him. Its weird because this is normally the play of the lower round pick who's trying to beat out a first round QB (Gus vs Heath, Orton vs Rex for ex), but I think Haskins is working it to perfection this season. 

 

I am trying to nail down your position.  Haskins would likely do very well with a more aggressive game plan but since that's not been the drill so he's killing it. "working to perfection" with a more conservative approach?

[Going Commando]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I presume they got an open mind about Haskins but haven't landing hard pro or con.  I think the franchise is set for the kill if he's the right dude -- which I know you think he is, I personally don't know.    So gauging Haskins makes sense to me if he's seen by them as a wild card.  Arguably that's more important than winning.  If they got a QB I don't think the rebuild is a mile away with an aggressive off season next year. 

 

What we're seeing playing out is not at all a normal or competent development process.  I've watched a lot of qbs and seen the way the ones who ended up becoming successful were developed by their organizations.  Their teams didn't stop playing to win games in order to test them instead.  And they sure as Hell didn't publicly hinge their job security on not making mistakes or turnovers, telling the media that everyone else played well enough to win (which was horse**** when Ron said it btw).

 

No one else is feeling antsy about the incompetence the coaching staff has demonstrated at developing a QB prospect thus far?  Is everyone thinking they're just throwing Haskins away so they can get their own guy and then they'll get everything right the next time?

[DJHJR86]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

If Haskins has 65% and is getting 200+ yards a game and is having turnover free games and he gets benched that's going to cause a firestorm in the city and I don't mean with the players.  I can go into the demographics of how it looks to the city that also did JC wrong and RG3 wrong - no matter how good or bad these two were, the city remembers that they were done wrong and the way they were treated caused an uproar. 

 

This is also why Kirk Cousins was never fully embraced by the fanbase.  In many eyes, he somehow was complicit in "wronging" RG3.  I also remember the media and fans going after the Shanahan's for the way they "wronged" McNabb...how'd that turn out for him in Minnesota?  

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

What we're seeing playing out is not at all a normal or competent development process.  I've watched a lot of qbs and seen the way the ones who ended up becoming successful were developed by their organizations.  Their teams didn't stop playing to win games in order to test them instead.  And they sure as Hell didn't publicly hinge their job security on not making mistakes or turnovers, telling the media that everyone else played well enough to win (which was horse**** when Ron said it btw).

 

No one else is feeling antsy about the incompetence the coaching staff has demonstrated at developing a QB prospect thus far?  Is everyone thinking they're just throwing Haskins away so they can get their own guy and then they'll get everything right the next time?

 

I respect where you are coming from.  I recall how enthusiasitc you are about Haskins.  And its not hard to tell that you believe that whomever doesn't feel the same way about the dude is dead wrong.  Sometimes I feel that way about some players so I can relate.  I just didn't feel that way about Haskins before the draft or after we drafted him.   I had concerns.  I am not saying you are wrong.  You got me one way or another, I hope you end up right. 

 

The reason why I am making this point is I presume the coaches there likewise already have a predisposition about Haskins.  They've studied him.  They see him in practice.  And that predisposition pro and con is likely dictating whatever test that's guiding their decisions.  By that, I don't mean they are setting him up to fail but likely instead seeing if they can alleviate whatever concerns they got via specific tests.   That's just a guess.   But I'd presume they have a slant.  Sheehan on the air yesterday and today speculated that their slant leans on the negative side.  That's possible.  But who knows what they are thinking?  My point is they likely already have an angle on Haskins.  Just like you do.  And i do and others on this thread.   And that's dictating their approach.

 

I trust Rivera and his track record.  He has a good reputation.  So does Zampese as a QB coach.  Granted Turner is a wildcard -- i don't know about him.  Like I said, I'll get to studying the play design soon and make up my own mind on it. 

 

I admit this season loses don't bother me that much.  I'd rather win.  But man, as you know better than most people on this thread, this team is desperate for a Chase Young like playmaker to add to McLaurin )maybe Gibson, too) to the offense and some O line hope.  People cite the 49ers rise from the ashes but some forget they had multiple #2 picks that helped lead to their surge, not just one #2 pick.  So if we land a Sewell or a J. Chase it could go a long way.    So for me loses aren't the end of the world.  I didn't think this team was going places this year anyway.

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The theme with Haskins here is bad coaching is dooming him?  My comment yesterday about our debates with Bruce wasn't a shot my point was you seem to have a lot more patence than most of us about players, FO, you name it.  Why not for Ron?  Unless i am misreading your take?

 

 

I was a Bruce defender because I didn't believe the 'sources'. I didn't take Shanny as a credible source nor the WP so a lot of the leaks that came out were things that I would dismiss. And I'd then say judge him by his picks and for the most part I liked them (especially after Shanny left). Now years down the line I'm not as big on some of those drafts but I wanted to see the players get a chance on the field as opposed to just dismissed for whatever reason. 

 

So fast forward to Ron and I'm not so negative on him until he starts dismissing Haskins. What is he doing with these in game tests? And I was ok with him and his 'mistakes' until he started doing these things. I was quiet about the TOs and may have defended him once on here, but what I'm seeing is a brewing QB controversy and what's more is that it seems like Ron is actively campaigning against Haskins and thats so freaking annoying. I am not bullish on Haskins, but I feel like he is playing well enough to not be getting the level of criticism he's getting. 

 

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am trying to nail down your position.  Haskins would likely do very well with a more aggressive game plan but since that's not been the drill so he's killing it. "working to perfection" with a more conservative approach?

What that does is that it helps him grow as a QB and potentially learn the ins and outs of the offense more (we saw Smith in his second year under Roman do a lot better than his first, as most QBs in their second years do), but he will also be growing in the league, getting used to seeing cover 1, cover 2, cover 3, who's blitzing, identifying the mike, etc. Heck, depending on what happens with Ron this may work to his advantage where he can outlast Ron or get traded to a place where he is appreciated (like Alex going to KC). 

 

But I think he can throw deep balls. He's not a Rex Grossman or a Jeff George who never met a deep ball they didn't like and I think he can be more aggressive but the more aggressive he is the more he risks throwing an int that may get him sat down. So I can understand him not wanting to do this as much, especially with a coach who is itching to bench him. If he were in an ideal environment, I'd think he would be adding this to his game week by week and I was glad to see the late deep ball to TMac because maybe this is still being added, but if not I can understand. 

[Thinking Skins]

6 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

This is also why Kirk Cousins was never fully embraced by the fanbase.  In many eyes, he somehow was complicit in "wronging" RG3.  I also remember the media and fans going after the Shanahan's for the way they "wronged" McNabb...how'd that turn out for him in Minnesota?  

True but the fans were never really attached to McNabb the way that we were to JC and RG3. He wasn't drafted here and was like stale buffet by the time he got here. Sure when he was hot he was good but at this point we can understand the need to get rid of it. But that said, he was still done dirty with all the leaks, the wristband controversy, and turning to Rex who looked horrible those last 3 games as well and that next year he looked really bad. 

[LetThePointsSoar]

40 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Why does that matter? Is Drew Brees a bad QB because he throws short passes? Goff? Newton? Carr? Mahomes? Big Ben? The check down offense is still moving the ball and getting us into field goal range and to the red zone with chances to score. But its bad because he does it? 

 

It doesn't matter if he's CONSISTENT and can lead drives in that manner that actually SCORE. 

 

Many of the QBs you mentioned CAN and DO. 

 

But Haskins is so inconsistent that every 3rd to 4th play, takes an awful sack because his pocket presence is horrid.  So we then end up in 3rd and long and he's rarely capable of converting, so we 3 and out and punt again. 

 

We've seen it for 10 starts now. It is who the guy is.  Can we move ON already.  Pleeeeaaasse, Ron. 

 

Hail. 

[KDawg]

So now the argument is: “Is Drew Brees a bad QB because he throws short passes?”

 

I don’t even know why I entertain stuff like that, to be honest. 
 

He throws short passes, usually on target, completing over 70% of them for the last 5 years (where he has started to lose some of his deep ball ability). 
 

He has also won a Lombardi. Has fantastic mechanics and has proven himself in the league. Using Drew Brees in an argument in favor of Dwayne Haskins at this point is absolutely absurd. Stop doing that. 
 

It’s like saying Mahomes mechanics aren’t perfect... they are pretty good until he gets off schedule, and then he creates.

 

Haskins gets off schedule from a play design and throws a 5 yard pass from the 14 on 4th and goal. 
 

I don’t think my landmarks for measuring success with Haskins are absurd. If he can complete 70% of his sink and dunk game, that’s decent. If he can make a couple of plays, and limit big errors, that’s improvement. If he can throw for 60% but push the ball downfield in the deep and intermediate range more often, that’s even improvement.

 

Completing 65% of his passes when they are mostly within a short range doesn’t show improvement for him. 
 

He actually completed 71% of his passes last week, I don’t know why we’re now short changing that land mark. 
 

He needs to stay consistent with that and limit the non sense mistakes. If he can stay consistent with his completion percentage in the 70s with the current gameplan and make a few off schedule plays it’d be very significant improvement for him.

[Going Commando]

28 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

And that's dictating their approach.

 

Putting Haskins in position to succeed and trying to win games should be their approach.  That is the only one that makes any sense.  Treating the regular season like preseason is just bizarre, especially when they've made this big deal about fixing the culture here.  You don't install a culture of competitiveness by not honestly competing, that is a contradiction.

 

Sure we could use another top five pick, but the NFL draft is deep in talent.  Good teams still get elite talent and early contributions from picks 20-60 every year too.  Tanking in September and October is inexcusable.  I'm starting to feel like the only reason that this has been allowed to go down is the boss is checked out.  There's no one above Ron in the organizational structure and it's impossible for him to be fully invested in the team and the building effort right now.  These are red flags.

 

I've had faith in the regime after we hired them, but it's not blind.  If the whole season goes like this and we have another poor offseason, I'm not going to be able to stay bought in to these guys.  That'd make it very clear to me that we need a real GM, and a good one at that, in order to have any hope at becoming a sustainably competitive team.

[KDawg]

I’d argue that the gameplan this past week was a great way to give Haskins a chance to succeed. And he had his best game... problem was what he didn’t do. 
 

Some of you are worked up about a “test”. But that test gave Washington a chance to compete in a football game. Correct me if I’m wrong, but at the point that they went for it the score was 31-10. Why not test the QB AND try to score a touchdown? 
 

The play call wasn’t great, and Washington has trouble with spacing in the passing game. I couldn’t agree more there. But Haskins didn’t do what a QB needs to do in that situation... people who are fond of Haskins aren’t even remotely conceding that point at all. It’s 4th and Goal. Situational play dictates that while the play design is to throw the deep out to McLaurin at the top of the drop and check down to the China, that it was 4th and goal. Move around, buy time and let the receivers run. Three man rush means you can buy a lot of time and scramble drills always favor the offense. 
 

This team has a lot to do better. Play calling in situations is certainly among them. But that doesn’t excuse poor situational awareness from JD McKissick and Dwayne Haskins.