FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[KDawg]

It’s always a totality thing. 
 

You want to see him improving on various quarterback check points.

 

Mechanics

Touch

Progressions

Awareness

Pocket Awareness

Escapability

Protection Adjustments

Third downs

Accuracy

Poise

 

Some of that we don’t know if he’s allowed to do. Some additional ones are different from prospect to prospect. For Haskins, taking what’s available is a good one. 
 

But can we say we’ve seen improvement in the areas listed above? Mechanics? Slight changes. Elbow is up more, but still too many back foot throws. 
 

Touch? Everything is a laser. That’s hyperbole. There are times he throws a nice touch pass. 
 

Progressions, it’s been said he gets through them quickly, it’s hard to see that when he’s staring down his receivers.  But I’d like to see him go through them on a regular basis and then deliver or get out. 
 

Awareness... I’d like him to understand something is coming and go above and beyond his job and help make the OL look better. He may not get away. May get sacked. But being aware of what could be coming without focusing on it is a skill the good QBs all possess. 
 

Escapability, does he makes defenses pay when they don’t get to him and they leave running lanes? Does he move the pocket well and draw defenders to open the pass?

 

Can he adjust protections? Does he understand them?

 

How is he on third downs? Is he talking to the receivers when they run routes short of the sticks?

 

Accuracy... isn’t just completion percentage. But do you hit the throws you should? I think touch really falls under accuracy, too, so it doesn’t have to be separate categories. 
 

Poise... is he rattled easily? Or does he stand resolute in the face of adversity... does he show frustration but put it in his back pocket after and make something happen or does he start to fall apart when things get tough?

 

I think my question to anyone RE: Haskins is: what do you feel he does well enough to show he can be a franchise guy? Or if you’re on the other side of fence, what doesn’t he do that leads you to believe he can’t develop?

[Thinking Skins]

16 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

But when you flat out misfire on wide open guys, THAT is a concern.

My question on these type of things (and Cooley brings this up with Sheehan) is that there are certain plays where there's an option deep and Haskins (or whatever QB) chooses the shorter option and I look at 1) did we get the first down 2) How easy was the checkdown vs the deep play. It's one thing to have a blown defensive assignment that leaves a WR streaking down the sideline and the QB throws the safe play to a RB in the backfield who gets 2 vs throwing to a "covered" WR who may have beaten his guy but if the S plays it right or if the ball isn't placed perfectly its an INT. 

[Thinking Skins]

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Progressions, it’s been said he gets through them quickly, it’s hard to see that when he’s staring down his receivers.  But I’d like to see him go through them on a regular basis and then deliver or get out. 

 

 

This is something I can't speak too much on but if the statements from Ron and others is that he's been going through his progressions too quickly, I'd think that's correctable but I wonder how much of this is happy feet and fear of the impending rush (vs what Ron is saying in terms of him getting excited)

 

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Awareness... I’d like him to understand something is coming and go above and beyond his job and help make the OL look better. He may not get away. May get sacked. But being aware of what could be coming without focusing on it is a skill the good QBs all possess. 
 

 

So one thing about the 2.5 second stat with Haskins is that its something that does make the OL look faster. But the problem with this is that I'd guess that a QB isn't getting to their 3rd or 4th read in that time period without rushing. 

 

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Escapability, does he makes defenses pay when they don’t get to him and they leave running lanes? Does he move the pocket well and draw defenders to open the pass?

 

This is what I expected him to improve on this year and maybe he will. He had a first down on that play where he was tackled by his shirt. He has the ability to do more with these runs (although as Cooley pointed out he does always seem to run a certian way - left). 

 

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

How is he on third downs? Is he talking to the receivers when they run routes short of the sticks?

 

So on 3rd and 4-9 (a passing situation), he's 7/13 for 73 yards and 1 TD, 1 Int, 5 first downs and 2 sacks and 2 runs for 17 yards. Not spectacular and definitely not enough information but something to build on. 3rd and 10+ is not as good - 4/11 for 72 yards, 1 TD 4 first downs and 1 interception and 1 sack. He also has a respectable third and short rating.

 

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Accuracy... isn’t just completion percentage. But do you hit the throws you should? I think touch really falls under accuracy, too, so it doesn’t have to be separate categories. 
 

 

So what about badly placed balls that a WR saves him on? I remember when we had Brandon Lloyd and he'd drop the most typical catches then make the acrobatic ones look easy. One thing I was hoping for with AGG and Harmon was that they'd be saving him from the touch issues we're seeing right now. 

 

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Poise... is he rattled easily? Or does he stand resolute in the face of adversity... does he show frustration but put it in his back pocket after and make something happen or does he start to fall apart when things get tough?

 

This I think he has in droves, but we're not on the field. He seems to respond well. I'm afraid that in the Cleveland game he was trying to do too much and seeing ghosts in the coverage. 

 

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think my question to anyone RE: Haskins is: what do you feel he does well enough to show he can be a franchise guy? Or if you’re on the other side of fence, what doesn’t he do that leads you to believe he can’t develop?

 

I really think he has all the tools. Its not about what we've seen or not seen but its about having invested the resources into him already. Other QBs may have "it" but I don't think we need to shuffle QBs in and out of a system. Its like Clinton Portis always said about running backs. You've got to let them get in there and get into a groove because a run that goes for 1 or 2 yards in the first half may go for 7 or 8 or a big one in the second half once you've learned the defense and played this game of chess. Other positions lend themselves to swapping guys in and out but not QB. 

 

People are acting like we've seen Heath Shuler or Jeff George type play from Haskins. He may have George type arm problems (not being able to throw a floater) but he has already shown that he will put in work in the offseason and was voted team captain (leadership). And heck, we've seen in his interviews that he's a smarter QB than Shuler. Maybe that's more John Beck type false positives but Shuler couldn't even remember a play. 

 

But he may be like some of these other first rounders who never could put it all together. I just would like to see him given a chance to succeed or fail on the field. 

[volsmet]

@mods please make a rule about negative Heath Shuler comments. 

[KDawg]

At some point you have to cut bait on a guy. Is that now? No. I don’t see any reason to not give him more time on the hope things click with him... But if he doesn’t show signs of that? This offseason is as good of a time as any.

 

People say that Haskins has the tools, but to be honest... I don’t see any tools, really, aside from his arm strength. 

I see a guy who hasn’t really shown improvement needed in any real, consistent way. I see a guy who throws deep when he should check down and a guy that checks down when he should go deep. I see a guy who is pressing in big moments (that to me shows a lack of poise) and a guy that has no ability to break down alignments and piece together pressure schemes. 
 

Im not sure he’s improved in any aspect. And yes, lack of preseason and traditional offseason with a new staff certainly factors in. But I’d like to see more than his occasional ability to keep his elbow up and not throw off his back foot once in awhile. 
 

He needs to start showing that he understands and he’s learning or he’s showing that he won’t cut it in DC.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

Mechanics:  Inconsistent

Touch:  Poor

Progressions:  Don't know

Awareness:  Don't know

Pocket Awareness:  Don't know

Escapability:  Decent

Protection Adjustments:  Don't know

Third downs:  Poor

Accuracy:  Poor with some exceptions

Poise:  Inconsistent

 

I think my question to anyone RE: Haskins is: what do you feel he does well enough to show he can be a franchise guy? Or if you’re on the other side of fence, what doesn’t he do that leads you to believe he can’t develop?

 

For me, my #1 hang up is lack of accuracy and touch.  The ones that blame that on his supporting cast I completely shrug off because as I've mentioned many times, I've seen him throw many balls in camp with zero pass rush (just pitch and catch) and the dude's accuracy is wild.  Just like I said about him on the draft thread before we took him, Haskins throws some beauties here and there and you will see exceptions to everything.  But I just don't think he has the consistent mechanics to be accurate outside of his wheel house which are short throws in between the numbers.

 

He has a strong arm but its a bit overblown too.   He doesn't have a Josh Allen like cannon.  Good arm IMO not great.    And to me one of the bigger advantages of having a cannon is the abiility to stretch the field but the dude doesn't throw a good deep ball. 

 

Nice kid.  I am glad he's working as hard as he supposedly is.  He has IMO good talent but not off the charts talent.  To me this season is a verdict on whether he can develop consistent mechanics to improve his accuracy.  Will he do it?  I'd bet no.  But I am open minded to see it play out, I certainly don't rule it out. 

 

I listened to JP Finlay's interview with Rivera where Finlay went over how Newton had some ups and downs during his rookie year but had some big time games in that mix.  And in turn it would be nice to have a big game or two from Haskins season where you can see some serious upside.  Rivera more or less concurred.  So do I, I'd like to see some peaks along with the valleys or meh games from Haskins this season.

 

I was listening to Sam Monson from PFF on 106.7 this morning.  His point is similar to mine.  He is not high on Haskins but also agrees that Haskins was given an unfair shake.  But if you have an opportunity to take a transcedent type of a QB in the draft (suggesting Haskins isn't that caliber of QB) you don't hesitate and do it.  

[wtfskins]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

My question on these type of things (and Cooley brings this up with Sheehan) is that there are certain plays where there's an option deep and Haskins (or whatever QB) chooses the shorter option and I look at 1) did we get the first down 2) How easy was the checkdown vs the deep play. It's one thing to have a blown defensive assignment that leaves a WR streaking down the sideline and the QB throws the safe play to a RB in the backfield who gets 2 vs throwing to a "covered" WR who may have beaten his guy but if the S plays it right or if the ball isn't placed perfectly its an INT. 

Where did you see Cooley analyzing his play I haven’t been able to find any of cooleys videos this year?

[Probos]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

At some point you have to cut bait on a guy. Is that now? No. I don’t see any reason to not give him more time on the hope things click with him... But if he doesn’t show signs of that? This offseason is as good of a time as any.

 

People say that Haskins has the tools, but to be honest... I don’t see any tools, really, aside from his arm strength. 

I see a guy who hasn’t really shown improvement needed in any real, consistent way. I see a guy who throws deep when he should check down and a guy that checks down when he should go deep. I see a guy who is pressing in big moments (that to me shows a lack of poise) and a guy that has no ability to break down alignments and piece together pressure schemes. 
 

Im not sure he’s improved in any aspect. And yes, lack of preseason and traditional offseason with a new staff certainly factors in. But I’d like to see more than his occasional ability to keep his elbow up and not throw off his back foot once in awhile. 
 

He needs to start showing that he understands and he’s learning or he’s showing that he won’t cut it in DC.

 

I agree with this point of view -- There are a lot of reasons/excuses to be made for Dwayne's poor play overall, some valid, some not.  One of the most obvious valid ones for me is this past off-season -- new HC and staff, covid, the name change, the Snyder debacle and sexual harassment stuff,..new HC has cancer.  I mean,....just unreal that they've been able field a team that's playing games -- It all factors in heavily.  But, my mind always goes back to this, for better or worse,....should The Football Team have drafted this kid in the first place?  Lets remember where the team was at that point -- Gruden going into a lame duck season, endless talk have him being fired during the season if there wasn't a massive improvement, playoffs, etc.  Gruden didn't want him and the staff didn't want to draft Dwayne where they did -- who made the call?  Dan.  He drafts a QB (with basically one good season under his belt) in the 1st round, hands he to his lame duck HC and says "here ya go,....you better win or else.".  How is that a recipe for success?  Dan goes on about how Dwayne's from the area, etc.  He uses the same BS selling points that make no sense at all when you're trying to build a football team properly.  Who cares.  Just another highlight of how incredibly incompetent and ego-centric Dan truly is,..it really is amazing.  I realize at this point what's done is done,...but,...man that still irks me.  

 

Dwayne's progression and potential success is this team's quickest route to winning ball games.  So, I root for him in that regard.  He seems like a nice kid,...still immature, but coming along.  I think he needs more time but at some point if this continues, as the HC you have to think about the other players on the team.  You have the responsibility of putting the best players on the field in order to win games.  If Dwayne continues to struggle, the other players are going to lose faith in him, regardless of how they may feel about him personally.   

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, wtfskins said:

Where did you see Cooley analyzing his play I haven’t been able to find any of cooleys videos this year?

He does it on Sheehan's show. 

[volsmet]

18 minutes ago, wtfskins said:

Where did you see Cooley analyzing his play I haven’t been able to find any of cooleys videos this year?

 

20 hours ago, mhd24 said:

Cooley with his latest film breakdown:

 

https://thekevinsheehanshow.com/2020/09/29/riveras-cut-off-point-cooley-film/

 

Starts around 50 minutes in...

 

He's pretty brutal on Haskins while trying to be positive.  Would have given him an F if he was more experienced, but curved it to a D because he's still young.  

 

[NeverSurrender]

Perhaps if we show a tenancy to throw deep every now and then it would force the defense to back up a little.  From what i see now is that we continue to throw passes of the 10-20 type over and over all game.  Couple this with backfield horizontal motion that has receivers and running backs moving horizontal at the snap, is allowing defenses to basically sit on the short stuff and play sideline to sideline.  Dialing up a few deep shots to Terry or AGG/Wright should help defenses back off a little.  Yes Haskins needs to play better and be more consistent and do many other things better BUT I also think we need to let him scare people with his arm and roll him out a bit more.  I have not liked his play thus far but I also think the play calling has been crap.  

[GOATFrerotte]

I've seen enough that I wouldn't just cut bait. I'd sit him though. It will be humbling but if he can't handle that, then you know he's not the one. Then if there's another opportunity this year or next year (2nd year of this new offense), you give him another shot. He's simply not playing well enough to be on the field with a team that is playing well enough to be competitive. If he was on the Giants and in Daniel Jones position with Colt McCoy as his backup and just an awful team, I'd let him play every snap. 

[Mooka]

Haskins isn't going to last long enough to develop. He'll play himself out of the job at this point.

 

He also does not fit the kind of offense Ron and Scott want to run.

 

We'll have a new QB next year IMO.

[Malapropismic Depository]

Another alternative scenario to consider is this.

What if Rivera gets sick with his treatment, to the point that he misses 2 consecutive games or more.

Is Del Rio more likely to be impatient enough to pull the plug on Haskins, as Interim HC ?

Or is he hesitant to make a major change while filling in a short time.

Though it probably depends on a lot of factors, like the amount of time he stands in, the type of performance, etc.

I'm guessing JDR consults with Rivera on that decision before following through, if he gets to that position.

[Voice_of_Reason]

19 hours ago, ClaytoAli said:

Just remembering how we could have had Wilson

I know I'm late to the party on this comment, but the greatest chance is even if we got Wilson, we would have destroyed him with Dan/Bruce in charge.  We certainly wouldn't have put the type of team around him Seattle did early, so he probably doesn't have the same success early, and then we dump him for the next flavor of the week.  

[Stone Cold]

You don’t have to watch his head to see how fast he’s goin thru his reads.  His feet tell the entire story.  His feet are never settled when the ball is in his hands.

[SoCalSkins]

2 hours ago, volsmet said:

@mods please make a rule about negative Heath Shuler comments. 

Every single Vol has been garbage for the Skins. After Haynesworth even mentioning a player associated with the school is unacceptable.

[volsmet]

3 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

Every single Vol has been garbage for the Skins. After Haynesworth even mentioning a player associated with the school is unacceptable.

The best win in franchise history was won because of a Vol. 

 

 

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

I'm listening to the press conferences today and I wonder if there's a reason why coaches don't do the no huddle as often. I'm wondering who calls those plays and how much interaction they're is with Scott on these plays. 

 

I think i did a stat lookup and saw that his ints came after huddles, so maybe I'm stretching here, but Haskins talked about his youth and need to grow  and getting out all back in one play. I get that it's just a press conference and all, but I'm wondering what this stems from. Is it just going through reads too fast as Rivera initially said or is it something like Cooley suggests and they watch the tape and see him doing what they told him not to do. 

 

I really wonder if it's something as simple as that last int (which was the worse one) really upsetting because it seems like he doesn't go through his reads, just focuses and throws it thinking he's superman and can fit it in there and that was naive. 

[Thinking Skins]

 

 

[GOATFrerotte]

He said all the right things and took some responsibility so that's good. If he can combine his protection of the ball like he had before the Browns game with some of what he showed in the Browns game he'll continue playing. I don't think Ron needs to see much, he just can't be putting up last in the NFL like numbers.

 

[Llevron]

16 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

He said all the right things and took some responsibility so that's good. If he can combine his protection of the ball like he had before the Browns game with some of what he showed in the Browns game he'll continue playing. I don't think Ron needs to see much, he just can't be putting up last in the NFL like numbers.

 

 

Yea, production matters more than anything else. We will see what the kid can do. Hes trending down now, but you never know. 

[SoCalSkins]

25 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Yea, production matters more than anything else. We will see what the kid can do. Hes trending down now, but you never know. 

You know. We can delude ourselves, but you already know how this movie ends. 

[volsmet]

Haskins telegraphs his progressions, he gets too cute, he wants to prove more than any play or drive or game can prove. His mind is a good one, but he need only look to the Beto boys to realize, a mans mind, can indeed, be misleading.

 

 

 

 

[Thinking Skins]