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Welcome to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State


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Just now, Darrell Green Fan said:

Of course they're not, but they are being evaluated when compared to their peers. It's insane to think a message board poster knows more than professional GMs, that should be obvious.

Which is why it’s pretty odd you’re talking about it :ols:

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2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree but there is some nuance to your point.  You weren't high on him in the draft.  LOL, I recall on draft day both you and me rooting for him to be picked before our pick.  Your feeling seems to be (correct me if I am wrong) that you weren't confident that he would conquer his weaknesses in the NFL.   But for him to have a fighting chance to do it, he'd need the right situation with a good supporting cast and that hasn't happened for him.

 

I agree with all of that.  It's not personal with me with any player.  When I watch WFT games often with my kids by my side, I am rooting for every dude. I want to win, I want everyone to play great.  I am no GM or vying for some GM job to say the least so I don't give a rats behind what i thought of said player before the draft while I am watching a game.   I don't have any motivation for anyone to fail.  That's ridiculous.  And i think pretty much everyone here is the same way. 

 

I defended RG3 left and right in 2013 and 2014, I thought Shanny and then Jay were the problem 100%.  I was wrong.  But I was very emotional making my points.  I was a big Doctson guy.  I defended him.  Mocked Cooley when he said he heard that he doesn't love football.  I was very territorial about protecting my dude so to speak.  I was wrong.

 

So these days I try to be more clinical about players.  And just let things unfurl and try to take my previous predispositons out of the equation unless what i see confirms those predispostions.  Heck I trashed Daniel Jones before that draft, now I am somewhat a defender of the dude relatively speaking on this thread.  He wasn't great but he played better than I expected. 

 

It's not that i have everything now in perfect emotion equilibrium. 😀  But I try to be more clinical than I've been in the past.  And I respect really anyone's opinion here is about football (with rare exception) versus being about some odd motive that has nothing to do with this team winning. 


Yes, I didn’t think he should be drafted at all.

 

Now he is ours; people get into name calling & resort to all sorts of e-nonsense over any rational evaluation of any single play, and the mods don’t need to deal with me dealing with those responses, so I don’t get into as much here as I’d typically like to.

 

I am a fan of Haskins, I have zero relationship with anything I’ve thought in the past, though I have a relationship with the reasons I see certain things & that relationship evolves daily. I have seen you echo my thoughts/beliefs on these things, I don’t root for opinions or right or wrong, I simply enjoy investing new data as it is revealed. I don’t care about what I think, nor what anyone else thinks about a player, I care about why and what can be gained from past results as well as what’s next. Right and wrong don’t exist, just information, no feelings, no attachments, just the data and removing anything that hinders objectivity. I already know the best to do it are wrong 50% of the time, so that makes it incredibly easy to let go of any “feelings” tied to my evaluations, I only care about what a play reveals, not the names, not yesterday’s views. Past is nothing but reference, it’s an unbelievable resource if you invest it rather than trying to protect/justify it. 

I have seen your evolution in scouting players, it’s a pleasure to be around. Your enthusiasm for it has always been infectious & you seem to be prioritizing objectivity over attachments to past thoughts/posts. We all need to work to quell our biases, we all have them. In every phase of our lives, pride & our relationship with our past tends to be the largest hindrance to becoming as successful as we’d like to be; in relationships & work. Guilt/pride/unresolved emotion is limiting. Ultimately we gain the most when we are in an environment that encourages us to be fully present & only use the past as a resource to invest, not something to fear or boast about. When we can be more present, we become more complementary to one another, which opens up possibilities that are only going to be discovered if we move forward free of guilt/pride over the past. Life is far too short to drag past evaluations around with you... the process is always evolving, the game is always changing, busts get opportunities to become stars later.

 

If your goal is to improve daily, your goal is to become unimpressed by today’s version of yourself. That’s easy for me, I like Josh Rosen. One day, it seems, I’ll say, wtf. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

*Outside of becoming more objective, you’re just killing these WRs evals.

 

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23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't know if you are wrong.  You might be right.  For me, i am not banking on accuracy issues being fixed.  I think its a major red flag.    That's the thesis of PFF's point about QBs.  I've seen them make it about other Qbs aside from Haskins.  The reason why I don't give Haskins a ton of slack on accuracy issues is I saw him throw a lot in camp with no pass rush at all and he was wild.

 

Can he overcome that eventually, maybe.  But I don't feel like he should get a long leash to find out if we end up with other attractive options. 

Yeah I'm glad you brought that up. A concern I had to start the season was we didn't hear any reports, I mean none, of Haskins delivering the ball on target all through camp.   all we heard was how he's working hard, studying, etc. At some point they're going to have to realize that if the quarterback can't hit what he's throwing at consistently, and this has always been his issue going back to college, he can't be the guy you build around

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2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

So these days I try to be more clinical about players.  And just let things unfurl and try to take my previous predispositons out of the equation unless what i see confirms those predispostions.  Heck I trashed Daniel Jones before that draft, now I am somewhat a defender of the dude relatively speaking on this thread.  He wasn't great but he played better than I expected. 

 

It's not that i have everything now in perfect emotion equilibrium. 😀  But I try to be more clinical than I've been in the past.  And I respect really anyone's opinion here is about football (with rare exception) versus being about some odd motive that has nothing to do with this team winning. 


I think it can be easier to see it when we bring out the worst in one another, but this is a great example of the opposite. The draft thread has been thoroughly enjoyable for this ES Cheerleader.

 

You glorious goofballs have given me quite a bit to gain from in that thread over the last couple years.

 

 

Edited by volsmet
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1 hour ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

Interesting comparison.  Please share those numbers. If I remember correctly, Campbell didn't take a snap in his 1st year. Then his 2nd year was in the same system even though he only started maybe half the year. 

Campbell in his first 7 games 110-207 for 1297 yards, 10 TDs and 6 INTs.

 

Campbell in his second season playing 13 games-250-417 for 2700 yards, 12 TDs and 11 INTs.

 

Haskins last year 119-203, 1365 yards and 7 TDs and 7 INTs. 
 

Haskins so far this year 35-64 for 401 yards 2 TDs and 0 INTs. 

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35 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Which is why it’s pretty odd you’re talking about it :ols:

 

I know you're joking but the point remains I'm taking the words and actions of the professionals who do this for a living over message board posters. And the professional who do this for a living clearly put a high emphasis on the quarterback position, there's really no question about that at this point in time

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6 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I know you're joking but the point remains I'm taking the words and actions of the professionals who do this for a living over message board posters. And the professional who do this for a living clearly put a high emphasis on the quarterback position, there's really no question about that at this point in time


Which is fine. And it makes sense. But they aren’t just taking the QB because of football reasons.

 

Theres a lot that goes into those decisions.

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9 minutes ago, KDawg said:


Which is fine. And it makes sense. But they aren’t just taking the QB because of football reasons.

 

Theres a lot that goes into those decisions.

 

Only our team picks players based on marketing and ticket sales. In every other city the GM understands winning means sales and a good quarterback is the best way to winning. Their actions make that clear. They all know if their team doesn't win they're going to be replaced. Are you saying they pass on a better method to build a team and draft a quarterback for reasons other than winning? That's preposterous, their livelihood depends on their team winning and they draft with that and that only in mind

Edited by Darrell Green Fan
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Can anyone who has reviewed film tell me whether Haskins’s accuracy improves in the hurry up? What’s his accuracy like when he has at least 2.5 seconds to throw? To my eye, he looks much better in all facets when these are the circumstances, which would suggest line play are a serious drag to his performance. I don’t see an iota of Campbell’s game in Haskins’s since the latter seems to process information so much better.

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1 hour ago, volsmet said:


Yes, I didn’t think he should be drafted at all.

 

Now he is ours; people get into name calling & resort to all sorts of e-nonsense over any rational evaluation of any single play, and the mods don’t need to deal with me dealing with those responses, so I don’t get into as much here as I’d typically like to.


I have seen your evolution in scouting players, it’s a pleasure to be around. Your enthusiasm for it has always been infectious & you seem to be prioritizing objectivity over attachments to past thoughts/posts. We all need to work to quell our biases, we all have them. In every phase of our lives, pride & our relationship with our past tends to be the largest hindrance to becoming as successful as we’d like to be; in relationships & work. Guilt/pride/unresolved emotion is limiting. Ultimately we gain the most when we are in an environment that encourages us to be fully present & only use the past as a resource to invest, not something to fear or boast about. When we can be more present, we become more complementary to one another, which opens up possibilities that are only going to be discovered if we move forward free of guilt/pride over the past. Life is far too short to drag past evaluations around with you... the process is always evolving, the game is always changing, busts get opportunities to become stars later.

 

If your goal is to improve daily, your goal is to become unimpressed by today’s version of yourself. That’s easy for me, I like Josh Rosen. One day, it seems, I’ll say, wtf. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

*Outside of becoming more objective, you’re just killing these WRs evals.

 

 

Thanks.  You do it the same way. I defended one of your takes on another QB's thread last year even though I didn't fully agree with the point.  The reason being is I know this stuff isn't personal for you.  It's pure football.  And you are consistent with your overall philosophy about it regardless of who the players are in mind.   And yeah on the draft thread, you got some killer takes.  Entertaining.  Informative.   And its fun to just talk football which probably happens on that thread more than any other.   Like I said, it was you ironically who pushed me to think deeper on Haskins and I tried to do just that. 

 

As for players, I've gathered over the years how critical is it to know the players as people.  What makes them tick.  How driven are they, etc.  A lot of players have talent but who has that drive to become great or as Cooley liked to say a lot of players in the locker room didn't love football but he knew the ones who did love football often ended up reaching their full potential. Then you got the dudes who get in trouble.  I loved Guice.  I heard rumblings of character issues but i shrugged them off because I heard nothing concrete.  The Panthers on the other hand took him off their draft board.  Obviously, they knew a lot more than I did.   So we are at a disadvantage to teams for multiple reasons but not knowing these player's personality is part of the soup IMO.  Mike Shanahan said even interviewing players before the draft doesn't really do it, he needs them in the building and on the team to realize if they are going to make it or not.  

 

I think its very difficult for anyone of us to know who these players are as people.  But on occasion there are some guys that just pop as far as leaks from scouts, etc, on that front.  McLaurin for example was touted to death on that front before the draft.   Michael Pittman to some extent too before this last draft.   I've been on a good streak of late on receivers after bombing on Doctson. 🙄.   Doctson was a good lesson for me.  I've learned to become less enamored with the old school Dez Bryant types who can do the contested catch, jump ball drill and have fallen more for polished route runners, smart receivers, who can seperate.  One dude I recall both of us liked, Van Jefferson, looks good already.  He fits that profile. 

 

As for Haskins, I've had a few short exchanges with him where I've watched him interact with my kids.  Great guy.  I know some here don't like Kirk as a person (it goes beyond for some his play).  But I'll always like him as a dude for two reasons.  My kids did a Qb camp with him.  He had like 100 kids in that camp.  And he remembered all of their names.  Unbelievable.   Bruce can't say Kirk's name right and Kirk has like 100 names memorized in the span of hours.   Super nice guy.  He spent time with everyone of them.  Then one day i was at the team training camp's hotel, my daughter was wearing a Kirk jersey but she's a good 30 feet away in the lobby, Kirk spots her from a distance and comes over to her and asks her if she wanted him to sign her jersey.  He did it unsolicited.    That was super cool and so unusual.  I used to be somewhat of a baseball groupie as a kid, I'd go to Spring Training games and wait outside for autographs and i still recall the super nice players like Cal Ripkin on that front. 

 

And if you are around camps and situations where you see players -- you'll see major differences from player to player.  A dude like Jonathan Allen for whatever reason won't even look at fans typically let alone acknowledge them.  But there are a handful of players who I've seen who are super gracioius with fans -- especially kids.  D. Hall was like that.  Super cool.  Peterson.  Kerrigan.  Josh Norman.   Haskins likewise is super cool on that front.  He runs into my son once in the lobby, my son stares at him, so he asks him if he had something for him to sign and he did it.  Most players avoid eye contact and try to skirt around the fans.  And yeah i know it has nothing to do with football but i got a soft spot for players who are cool to my kids and other kids.

 

As yeah if I am critical as to Haskins accuracy or whatever.  It's not personal.  I think he's a great guy.  I defended him last year on the same front.  i am rooting for him.  But I got some concerns that won't go away until I see him overcome them.  And yeah no doubt he has it tough with this supporting cast to say the least. 

 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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10 minutes ago, D’Pablo said:

 

 

I don't study film like crazy, but by all means we already see the correlation between getting the ball out fast and higher completion percentage. I would say he has more opportunity to get the ball out faster in the hurry up offense, as they are rarely long developing plays, so I would expect him to do better in those situations.

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24 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

Only our team picks players based on marketing and ticket sales. In every other city the GM understands winning means sales and a good quarterback is the best way to winning. Their actions make that clear. They all know if their team doesn't win they're going to be replaced. Are you saying they pass on a better method to build a team and draft a quarterback for reasons other than winning? That's preposterous, their livelihood depends on their team winning and they draft with that and that only in mind

Yeah. Our franchise may have done a lot of really epically stupid stuff, but how we go about putting together a team on the field is really not all that different to any other. Everyone praises Seattle for example but they've been absolutely atrocious in drafting players for a while now.

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1 hour ago, httr2020dynasty said:

The question is why wouldn't you want to see us compete if a different qb can make us more competitive this year? 

 

We won 3 games last year. In one of those 3 games Haskins was the starter when we beat a team for whom Kyle Allen started.

 

This is a long term project - its not a quick fix where you can replace QB A with QB B who might be a bit better and that gets you the 1 or 2 wins that get you a wild card. Its about building a team that COULD compete for a Championship down the road.

 

Part of this season was always about evaluating Haskins and how he could develop in this system and you don't do that in 2 starts. One of which he won I might add (although we all know he was not the reason we won that game). 

 

If we had wanted to get 3 or 4 more wins this year and maybe win a division with 8 or 9 wins and get a playoff game Rivera would have signed Cam Newton to start. And Kyle Allen does not get this team 3 more wins anyway. But thats not the objective, this is a rebuild and evaluation year. And a huge part of that evaluation is what do we have in Haskins. You have made a decision on that (which is fair enough) I don't think the book is written yet. Either way we have to see this out on e way or another.

 

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1 hour ago, BayouBrave86 said:

Haskins so far this year 35-64 for 401 yards 2 TDs and 0 INTs. 


So Haskins in on pace for 280-512 for 3208 yards 16 TDs and 0 INTs.

not a bad (basically) rookie year.

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3 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

We won 3 games last year. In one of those 3 games Haskins was the starter when we beat a team for whom Kyle Allen started.

 

This is a long term project - its not a quick fix where you can replace QB A with QB B who might be a bit better and that gets you the 1 or 2 wins that get you a wild card. Its about building a team that COULD compete for a Championship down the road.

 

Part of this season was always about evaluating Haskins and how he could develop in this system and you don't do that in 2 starts. One of which he won I might add (although we all know he was not the reason we won that game). 

 

If we had wanted to get 3 or 4 more wins this year and maybe win a division with 8 or 9 wins and get a playoff game Rivera would have signed Cam Newton to start. And Kyle Allen does not get this team 3 more wins anyway. But thats not the objective, this is a rebuild and evaluation year. And a huge part of that evaluation is what do we have in Haskins. You have made a decision on that (which is fair enough) I don't think the book is written yet. Either way we have to see this out on e way or another.

 

 

Haskins was 13/25 for 147 yards, 0 tds. Not sure the meaning of pointing out their team head to head match when Haskins numbers were just as bad or worse than Allen's. 

 

And I'll have to agree to disagree on the other points. The object is to build a winning culture not babysit players because we drafted them before Rivera and his regime were even around. If Haskins continues to play like this for one or two more games and Rivera doesn't play Allen I'll be very disappointed. He owes Haskins absolutely nothing and Haskins has done nothing to deserve being a long term project. We have done this before plenty of times with qbs. Time to try something different and stop wasting time with players who aren't making us competitive. I see absolutely nothing wrong with benching Haskins if he continues to be statistically the worst qb in the NFL. And it doesn't take much to earn more playing time, all you have to show is you are making the team better, you don't have to win. Against Cleveland he just has to be better than being the worst player in the league for his position and he'll continue playing. Not asking for much but not sure why anyone wants to go through another project with a qb that is not showing us anything.

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4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

In good spirits, I'd say you do the comparison stuff on this thread as much as anyone.    It's just a different slant of the comparisons typically.   That's all.  All in a good spirit of a debate from everyone here.  The QB threads have been heated over the years, this one is no different. 😀

 

Haha, yeah, I just think people get caught up in the moment and don't remember the early struggles from other QBs from around the league back when they were young.  So I try to remind them of the success stories. 😉

 

 

On another note:

 

Funny how that works.

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40 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Haha, yeah, I just think people get caught up in the moment and don't remember the early struggles from other QBs from around the league back when they were young.  So I try to remind them of the success stories. 😉

 

 

On another note:

 

Funny how that works.

fwiw Burrow averaged 5.2 ypa, 8.5 ypc and a long of 23 yards. He wasn’t exactly lsu joe slinging it

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50 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Haha, yeah, I just think people get caught up in the moment and don't remember the early struggles from other QBs from around the league back when they were young.  So I try to remind them of the success stories. 😉

 

 

There are a lot of posts here about Haskins pro and con from all type of sources including comparisons  You've posted plenty of it.  So have I.  😉.

 

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1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Haha, yeah, I just think people get caught up in the moment and don't remember the early struggles from other QBs from around the league back when they were young.  So I try to remind them of the success stories. 😉

 

 

On another note:

 

Funny how that works.

 

Few question the team did nada on the O line.  I'd hazard a guess I might have posted the most on the topic.  They did very little to help him.  No doubt.  I was crapping on this O line and supporting cast all off season. 

 

My point I made earlier is some arguments on the topic won't be won by either point of view on Haskins because some have a totally different premise about his prospects.  The conclusions are different because the premise of their thinking are entirely different. 

 

A.  If people loved him before the draft.  They just won't understand any impatience with Haskins.    The flaws aren't going to bother them much since they are already smitten by his attributes and think the rest of the package will come together.

 

B.  If people didn't love him before the draft and question whether he's a franchise QB.  They will be more likely impatient with Haskins.  To them, its relevant if Haskins struggles with some of the same things that concerned them before the draft.  And other QB examples won't move them because they had specific concerns about Haskins from the outset. 

 

So I don't see how Group A and Group B are supposed to agree to a premise of patience because its not really a theoritical conversation about patience.  It's more about whether you are inclined to buy in that Haskins likely pans out or not.   And personally I am not really hardcore on Haskins either way.  I've vacillated.  My only hardcore position on Haskins is I don't think he's some bonafide slam dunk franchise QB where the world would be surprised if he doesn't pan out.  Those type of sure thing (even though people get these guys wrong, too) type QBs tend to go top 3.  I can see him booming or busting.  And I am not smitten enough with the boom potential to wait it out for long.  But I would certainly wait through this season.  i am opposed to benching him at any point this season. 

 

I've posted easily more positive posts about Haskins than negative but I tend to post both.  And people can find information to back their current leanings like below or the PFF article.  Then conversely you can listen to Shawn Springs today who swears by Haskins.    As Sheehan (who is a big Haskins guy) likes to say its a divided opinion about Haskins.  We all want him to be the guy.  I personally think he deserves this season but if he doesn't work out some of his accuracy issues and we can take a potentially stud QB then you pull the trigger.

 

It's nothing personal against Haskins.  I think he's a great guy.  I hope he bounces back this Sunday and I suspect he will and there will be more sunshine on this thread. 😀

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

He looked cool though... or so I've been told.

I will say that when a seemingly not-so-fast-of-foot QB can gash you repeatedly with almost nonchalant 3rd down conversion runs like Burrow does, that can really deflate a defense. Haskins will never be Burrow in that regard but I wish to see some more of that..

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Just now, skinbuck said:

I will say that when a seemingly not-so-fast-of-foot QB can gash you repeatedly with almost nonchalant 3rd down conversion runs like Burrow does, that can really deflate a defense. Haskins will never be Burrow in that regard but I wish to see some more of that..

Early on in his time at OSU, his running was described as a baby giraffe learning to take off..he’s come a long way from that!

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