FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

People need to just let this play out, instead of scurrying to justify their guesses, I mean takes, on how these players will pan out. Sit back and enjoy the ride

 

Agree albeit I don't think much of the debate at least this morning was on a different track from your point.   It's actually an argument about what Cooley said and meant -- not so much people saying we (or Cooley) has Haskins figured out on lock and key.  Most of us if anything are saying we don't have Haskins figured out and people were mixed on the dude.   So we will see. 

[Warhead36]

Haskins is raw and has a lot of talent, but he's not a sure thing. We aren't talking about a Luck or Manning like prospect here. I have no issue with any of the negative analysis, there is a reason he fell to 15 and wasn't taken #1/#1.

 

But the potential is there. It just comes down to the organization to develop him.

[HTTRDynasty]

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

He is inaccurate on the move or when he has to reset his feet. This is a big footwork issue. And it is an issue. But saying a 70% passer isn't accurate at all is slanted with bias. I don't care how else you spin it.

 

He didn't say he isn't accurate at all.  He said his misses a boatload of passes.    And I presume by the way he stated his case -- he was not referring to the slants and shallow crossers.  I think completion percentage especially in college can overstate or understate accuracy.  

 

But again that's Cooley.  i don't have issues with Haskins accuracy myself.  But since the debate is about what Cooley actually said and meant -- I am responding to that specifically. 

 

But judging by other posts from others weighing in some are taking it that this is some worship Cooley's take on the world thread -- that's not what am doing -- I am just explaining what I think he said and meant.    So I think am done with presenting Cooley's position on his podcast since it's turning the thread into a Cooley as opposed to Haskins one.   

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He didn't say he isn't accurate at all.  He said his misses a boatload of passes.    And I presume by the way he stated his case -- he was not referring to the slants and shallow crossers.  I think completion percentage especially in college can overstate or understate accuracy.  

 

 

That's all stats at all levels. Context matters. 

 

I don't see a boatload of missed passes. I see missed passes for sure, though. Most stemming from footwork issues.

 

But judging by other posts from others weighing in some are taking it that this is some worship Cooley's take on the world thread -- that's not what am doing -- I am just explaining what I think he said and meant.    So I think am done with presenting Cooley's position on his podcast since it's turning the thread into a Cooley as opposed to Haskins one.   

 

For the record, I don't think that. I just think Cooley is a little scattered in his point and it's not coherent.

[arftech]

Matt Bowen on John Keim's newest podcast see it differently and I'll go with his take.😉

 

Hail Em Up!

[mistertim]

46 minutes ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

 

Oh boy here come the proud contrarians. Cooley the be all end on draft prospects? HahahahahahahahaHahaha, who knew?! He gets paid to stir the pot.

But but Drew Lock will be the 2nd qb taken in the top ten, book it!! Smh. LOL.... People need to just let this play out, instead of scurrying to justify their guesses, I mean takes, on how these players will pan out. Sit back and enjoy the ride instead of having your write up ready on “you see this wasn’t my guy” just to make yourselves feel like you are the best GM on a message board.

The internet is awesome gotta love it. You mean there are disparate opinions on how good Haskins will be? Shocker! He’s ours now, get on board, cuz god forbid the kid actually makes it. I promise if he does to remind you forever on the fact you didn’t want him. And if he doesn’t make it I’m sure you’ll be first in line waving a finger at yourself.. but until then, support the kid who is 21yrs old and Enjoy the ride please. Look to build him up instead of tear him down. Save us from the countless reasons he sucks and all the ways we made a mistake, that you saw coming.

Its like going to see a movie with a friend and he’s like “this movie is gonna suck, ebert only gave it 2 stars, and roper says he won’t even see it till it’s out on video, I’m telling you it’s gonna suck.” Thanks bud, can we just watch the movie please. ✌🏽

 

I have no clue who you're talking to because there isn't a single person in here who's even implied that they don't support Haskins and want him to succeed. We all do. But there are realistic concerns that many people see with his game that need to be fixed for him to succeed at the next level and ignoring that or trying to throw him to the wolves could hamper or even destroy the chances of him fixing those things.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

From what Reddick implies here, his biggest issues with Haskins were already in the process of being fixed.  The growth didn't go on hiatus for the draft season.  His Pro-Day showed improvements with his footwork.

 

The implication here is that when Haskins walks into training camp, he'll look like a different prospect than the one that ended his college season in the Rose Bowl.

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

From what Reddick implies here, his biggest issues with Haskins were already in the process of being fixed.  The growth didn't go on hiatus for the draft season.  His Pro-Day showed improvements with his footwork.

 

The implication here is that when Haskins walks into training camp, he'll look like a different prospect than the one that ended his college season in the Rose Bowl.

 

That would be nice, but let's also be realistic. Footwork looking better in shorts during a pro day doesn't always mean all that much. RG3's footwork was one of his issues and I remember many people talking about how much better his footwork looked during his pro day vs his college tape...but when he went back out onto the field and the bullets were flying it reverted back to the same as it was during college. It takes time to correct that stuff, especially while also digesting the speed and complexities of NFL defenses. I think if we assume that Haskins will magically walk into TC as a different QB than he was in college we'll be setting ourselves up for disappointment when he actually plays. He needs patience...I just hope this FO and coaching staff will show it to him.

[Llevron]

I find it weird cooley points out all those flaws and then, apparently, says to start him. Everything about this kid, including his success, tells me we should sit him. 

 

*I haven't actually listened to cooley*

[volsmet]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

The game that raised concerns for me wasn't even the Purdue one as much as Penn State, at some point they just starting bringing the house including pressure up the middle and you can see his game drop.  If he's going to step in the pocket and throw -- you need good protection. 

 

 

Absolutely. I shredded him for PSU, including about 15 gifs of his most concerning throws, & I mentioned Purdue was his most impressive game to me. 

2 hours ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

 

Oh boy here come the proud contrarians. Cooley the be all end on draft prospects? HahahahahahahahaHahaha, who knew?! He gets paid to stir the pot.

But but Drew Lock will be the 2nd qb taken in the top ten, book it!! Smh. LOL.... People need to just let this play out, instead of scurrying to justify their guesses, I mean takes, on how these players will pan out. Sit back and enjoy the ride instead of having your write up ready on “you see this wasn’t my guy” just to make yourselves feel like you are the best GM on a message board.

The internet is awesome gotta love it. You mean there are disparate opinions on how good Haskins will be? Shocker! He’s ours now, get on board, cuz god forbid the kid actually makes it. I promise if he does to remind you forever on the fact you didn’t want him. And if he doesn’t make it I’m sure you’ll be first in line waving a finger at yourself.. but until then, support the kid who is 21yrs old and Enjoy the ride please. Look to build him up instead of tear him down. Save us from the countless reasons he sucks and all the ways we made a mistake, that you saw coming.

Its like going to see a movie with a friend and he’s like “this movie is gonna suck, ebert only gave it 2 stars, and roper says he won’t even see it till it’s out on video, I’m telling you it’s gonna suck.” Thanks bud, can we just watch the movie please. ✌🏽

 

Jim Jones approves this post. 

[Skinsinparadise]

53 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

From what Reddick implies here, his biggest issues with Haskins were already in the process of being fixed.  The growth didn't go on hiatus for the draft season.  His Pro-Day showed improvements with his footwork.

 

The implication here is that when Haskins walks into training camp, he'll look like a different prospect than the one that ended his college season in the Rose Bowl.

 

Reddick, B. Brooks and T. Pauline worship Haskins.  And that's not a shot, I actually like that.  I said when we drafted him, watch Reddick and Brooks if people want to bask in some hype on Haskins. 

 

Shanny said something interesting in his podcast with Sheehan.  I forgot what it pertained to specifically as for what he'd like to see out of Haskins -- but he said you'll see it really quick in camp if he can do it or not.

 

The one thing that will make camp difficult is typically most young QBs are hyped for killing it in camp or at least is making progress by those covering it.  So I won't take it seriously until the bullets start flying in real games or maybe exhibition ones. 

 

I am probably going to go to camp for a few days to see him among others this year.  Again, not that my opinion means anything.  But for me even as a layperson there are somethings you can see that are hard to miss.  I recall posting while watching the 2017 camp that the idea that Colt has improved his arm strength (a narrative pushed by some including the WP) to me looked like BS.   That was easy for me to see because Kirk and Sudfeld and Colt would throw back to back and you can see it in an obvious way that Colt didn't have nearly the same velocity as the others and when Colt went deep his throws still sort of floated.  And on the defensive side as much as Lanier may have been hyped heading into that season Tomsula was killing him practice in a noticeable way.

[Skinsinparadise]

33 minutes ago, Llevron said:

I find it weird cooley points out all those flaws and then, apparently, says to start him. Everything about this kid, including his success, tells me we should sit him. 

 

*I haven't actually listened to cooley*

 

With the disclaimer again that all I am doing is repeating Cooley's points as opposed to saying I share all of them -- he thinks Haskins needs real experience to work the stuff out.  But yeah he switched from saying to sit him in his first podcast on Haskins to play him in his last podcast.  He said he changed his mind where he thinks he'd play him to work his way through things and learn. 

 

Cooley thinks he ends up starting in week one.  But he thinks the coaching staff will be able to tell right away from mini camp as to whether he will adapt fast and be sufficiently ready for week 1. 

 

Just listened to his segment on Galdi today, he seems to be putting some burden on Jay to adjust his offense.  He thinks Jay's offense has too many 5 step drops for Haskins and he'd limit those plays and use a lot of the short-quick game among other things. 

[HTTRDynasty]

30 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Shanny said something interesting in his podcast with Sheehan.  I forgot what it pertained to specifically as for what he'd like to see out of Haskins -- but he said you'll see it really quick in camp if he can do it or not.

 

Not really addressing your point, but just an observation in regards to Shanny: IMO, the most important trait Shanny and Elway look for in their QB's are guys with a cannon for an arm.  Haskins has good arm strength, but not Lock, Cutler, Lynch,  (maybe) RGIII, or Elway level.  This is not to say that Shanny wouldn't give an unbiased evaluation in his breakdown on QB's without cannons, just that I wouldn't be shocked if he loved Lock, for example, over Haskins, primarily for that reason (whether he admits it or not).  And I'm not surprised in the least Elway drafted Lock.  That's one reason it's laughable Gettleman implied the Broncos were going to draft Jones if he didn't... that's a guy that has no shot of Elway falling in love with him.  I'll probably listen to the podcast with Shanny's take at some point, because I'm interested if arm strength is brought up at all.

 

42 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The one thing that will make camp difficult is typically most young QBs are hyped for killing it in camp or at least is making progress by those covering it.  So I won't take it seriously until the bullets start flying in real games or maybe exhibition ones. 

 

Funny thing about this is I remember Mahomes getting killed last training camp for throwing multiple INT's every day.  It was exacerbated by the fact that KC was projected to have a bad defense (it ended up being even worse).  KC fans were legit worried, especially when comparing his TC INT rate to what they'd seen from Smith the last few years before that.  Just goes to show, to your point, that TC needs to always be put into context and be taken with a grain of salt on the aggregate level.

[mistertim]

38 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Just listened to his segment on Galdi today, he seems to be putting some burden on Jay to adjust his offense.  He thinks Jay's offense has too many 5 step drops for Haskins and he'd limit those plays and use a lot of the short-quick game among other things. 

 

I think this is pretty key and we'll really see now whether Jay is actually flexible and caters his play design/calling to the talent he has or not. I really hope he does but I'm not overly optimistic. One thing about Jay seems to be that he's ridiculously stubborn when it comes to his gameplan and/or adjusting it. His lack of adjustments (at least in-game) has thus far been mind-numbing. At times he almost seems to do the opposite of what his guys are good at or will go away from something that's working. It's bizarre.

[volsmet]

18 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Not really addressing your point, but just an observation in regards to Shanny: IMO, the most important trait Shanny and Elway look for in their QB's are guys with a cannon for an arm.  Haskins has good arm strength, but not Lock, Cutler, Lynch,  (maybe) RGIII, or Elway level.  This is not to say that Shanny wouldn't give an unbiased evaluation in his breakdown on QB's without cannons, just that I wouldn't be shocked if he loved Lock, for example, over Haskins, primarily for that reason (whether he admits it or not).  And I'm not surprised in the least Elway drafted Lock.  That's one reason it's laughable Gettleman implied the Broncos were going to draft Jones if he didn't... that's a guy that has no shot of Elway falling in love with him.  I'll probably listen to the podcast with Shanny's take at some point, because I'm interested if arm strength is brought up at all.

 

 

 

Not that it matters, but I think Haskins has a bigger arm than Lock. 

[HTTRDynasty]

2 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

Not that it matters, but I think Haskins has a bigger arm than Lock. 

 

I haven't watched enough of Lock to compare tbh, but the consensus seems to be Lock has the bigger arm.  Good to know at least one person doesn't agree.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am probably going to go to camp for a few days to see him among others this year.  Again, not that my opinion means anything.  But for me even as a layperson there are somethings you can see that are hard to miss.  I recall posting while watching the 2017 camp that the idea that Colt has improved his arm strength (a narrative pushed by some including the WP) to me looked like BS.   That was easy for me to see because Kirk and Sudfeld and Colt would throw back to back and you can see it in an obvious way that Colt didn't have nearly the same velocity as the others and when Colt went deep his throws still sort of floated.  And on the defensive side as much as Lanier may have been hyped heading into that season Tomsula was killing him practice in a noticeable way.

 

I doubt I will, so I'll look forward to your posts on camp.

[HTTRDynasty]

Good point made here.  Doubt it happens though.  If this is Gruden's last year, I'm sure he wants to go out swinging (i.e. calling his own plays).

 

 

[wit33]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Reddick, B. Brooks and T. Pauline worship Haskins.  And that's not a shot, I actually like that.  I said when we drafted him, watch Reddick and Brooks if people want to bask in some hype on Haskins. 

 

This isn’t a bad thing in the least. There’s plenty “NFL guys” who are ALL IN. Most others give the typical answer about his inexperience, which provides no value to me the consumer. 

 

I agree 100% on the mobility issue being a farce, from watch I’ve watched (still not a great amount, but getting there). He seems very adept at manipulating the pocket while keeping his eyes down the field  (something I’ve not witnessed in a Skins QB for a while) and scramble for positive gains when play breaks down. Absolute musts for a pocket QB. 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Good point made here.  Doubt it happens though.  If this is Gruden's last year, I'm sure he wants to go out swinging (i.e. calling his own plays).

 

 

 

So basically, to the astonishment of absolutely nobody outside of Redskins park, Jay sucks at play calling.

 

Play design? Yes. Play calling? No. He's too much of a **** and seems unable or unwilling to make adjustments in-game. Please, for the love of dog, do not let him call plays for Haskins...he'll get him killed. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Not really addressing your point, but just an observation in regards to Shanny: IMO, the most important trait Shanny and Elway look for in their QB's are guys with a cannon for an arm.  Haskins has good arm strength, but not Lock, Cutler, Lynch,  (maybe) RGIII, or Elway level.  This is not to say that Shanny wouldn't give an unbiased evaluation in his breakdown on QB's without cannons, just that I wouldn't be shocked if he loved Lock, for example, over Haskins, primarily for that reason (whether he admits it or not).  And I'm not surprised in the least Elway drafted Lock. 

 

It's a good guess part of what Shanny said he liked about Lock is he can throw a bullet without putting his body into the throw.  Yeah Shanny clearly dug Lock.  I'd have to listen again to his take on Haskins -- I didn't get the vibe that he didn't like Haskins -- he liked his arm, too and thought he can make some nice throws but saw him as more of a projection and wondered about the Ohio State's offense.  So he had some uncertainty about him.  I recall him saying that you can tell real quick in camp as to whether a QB has it or not.  

 

33 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

I agree 100% on the mobility issue being a farce, from watch I’ve watched (still not a great amount, but getting there). He seems very adept at manipulating the pocket while keeping his eyes down the field  (something I’ve not witnessed in a Skins QB for a while) and scramble for positive gains when play breaks down. Absolute musts for a pocket QB. 

 

If you watched multiple full games then I got a different impression unless outliers count.  I had the impression too he was adept at moving in the pocket when I watched highlights or guys like Bucky Brooks cherry pick some examples.  But the impression I got when I watched 5 full games back to back of Haskins was on the aggregate he wasn't hot as to using footwork to dodge pressure and make throws. 

 

I recall ironically saying on the draft thread the thing that makes Haskins tough is you can find exceptions to everything -- heck I can find clips that even make him seem mobile like you are referring to him taking off and running.  But by and large, I didn't see Haskins as having quick feet in the pocket.

 

But I don't want to dwell on it.  So if he's a quick footed and mobile QB to you or whatever variation you got on it.  Cool with me.  I didn't see that.  And i know am not alone on that.   The way I see it is hopefully those glimpses can be brought out in a bigger way. 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

So basically, to the astonishment of absolutely nobody outside of Redskins park, Jay sucks at play calling.

 

Play design? Yes. Play calling? No. He's too much of a **** and seems unable or unwilling to make adjustments in-game. Please, for the love of dog, do not let him call plays for Haskins...he'll get him killed. 

 

I am relatively nice to Jay here compared to some.  I'll say this, yeah I do think Jay is a killer play designer.  You can see it on his coaches shows where he diagrammed plays and shows how like a chess match he outwits coverages, this guy moves the other guy this way, opening things up for so and so, etc.   When you freeze game film you can see that Jay's scheme is really good at getting guys open.

 

But when you look at for example Warren Sharp's stats about percentage success of this or that play per down or per formation -- the Redskins are atrocious at playing the odds.  Sharp constantly makes fun of the Redskins as being one of the worst culprits of not understanding how to play the percentages as to personnel, down distance, avoiding telegraphing plays, etc.  I charted it last year on a thread using Sharps metrics.  The most common hit on Jay for example are all the runs on first down -- that hit is apt according to Sharp.  The Redskins are one of the top 5 culprits of running too much on first down and failing in doing so but stubbornly sticking with it.

 

Cooley in his film break down of their first down and third down offense really ripped the predictability of it and lack of creativity and he loves Jay.  I like Jay, too.  But I do think he would be better served by sticking to play design and letting O'Connell call the plays.  

 

O'Connell worked with Haskins QB coach in SF so he might be the right guy to set up the offense to help Haskins thrive.   But I do like Jay's ability to work with Haskins directly as a teacher.   I noticed how hands on he is on that front when I watched some of training camp in 2017.  He really rode Sudfeld a lot which was ironic because Sudfeld didn't make the roster that year and while he had the opportunity to resign here bolted to the Eagles instead.

[mistertim]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am relatively nice to Jay here compared to some.  I'll say this, yeah I do think Jay is a killer play designer.  You can see it on his coaches shows where he diagrammed plays and shows how like a chess match he outwits coverages, this guy moves the other guy this way, opening things up for so and so, etc.   When you freeze game film you can see that Jay's scheme is really good at getting guys open.

 

But when you look at for example Warren Sharp's stats about percentage success of this or that play per down or per formation -- the Redskins are atrocious at playing the odds.  Sharp constantly makes fun of the Redskins as being the culprits of not understanding percentages as to personnel, down distance, telgraphing plays, etc.  I charted it last year on a thread.  The most common hit on Jay for example are all the runs on first down -- that hit is apt according to Sharp.  The Redskins are one of the top 5 culprits of running too much on first down and failing doing so.

 

Cooley is his film break down of their first down and third down offense really ripped the predictability of it and lack of creativity and he loves Jay.  I like Jay, too.  But I do think he would be better served by sticking to play design and letting O'Connell call the plays.  

 

O'Connell worked with Haskins QB coach so he might be the right guy to set up the offense to help Haskins thrive. 

 

Yeah, I think you're right...it's Jay's predictability that's such a killer. I remember one of the games last season where Romo was commentating and he mentioned that he had studied the Skins offense and talked about how Jay's play calling is too predictable. IIRC went on to look at the formations and then called out a bunch of plays before they started and was right on almost every one. It was embarrassing.