FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Skin'emAlive]

Michael Thomas has dropped approximately 15 passes since 2010. If you pass it to him, he’s coming down with it. He’s going to shatter the reception record this year, and that’s without Brees half the season. Can’t compare anyone to him but Larry Fitzgerald imo. 

[Thinking Skins]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

My 2 cents on those points.  In Ohio State from what I observed he was deadly accurate with mesh routes, and general throws in the between the numbers, 5-15 yard range give or take.  I gather you are a bigger Sprinkle guy than me.  But I don't think much of him.  Quinn hasn't had much of a season either.  My point is I don't think he has the ideal weapons that fit his strength.  If Sims develops as a slot guy, I think it will help. And a real TE threat would help, too.  A healthy Jordan Reed IMO would have been a godsend for Haskins.  Ditto a slot guy like Crowder.  I liked him better throwing inside than outside in Ohio State.

 

 

Yeah I agree with you in terms of need for weapons. But I think he's trying to turn Sprinkle into a weapon. Its amazing to watch because this isn't the same Sprinkle I saw last year with Josh Johnson. He's not an all pro by any means and I wouldn't even say that I'm a big Sprinkle guy (though that may still mean I'm a bigger Sprinkle guy than you). I do think we need to upgrade TE but that's not likely to happen until next March at earliest. Sprinkle is going to get the most of the action until then. Now Hentges has had some drops too, and I like that Haskins is going to his TEs, but Sprinkle has decent speed 4.7 and is getting separation on his routes. That deep ball that he dropped against ?the Lions? looked SOOOOO pretty. Against the Panthers he had the 2 point conversion play where I think he caught it, the ball on the ground. I think there was another too but I can't remember. The fact that they're trusting him to run these routes is one thing in itself, but then he's getting separation and having a chance to make big plays. I think he needs to calm down and secure the catches before trying to run but he has the makings of a complete TE. 

 

I often compared Harmon to Thomas but it depends on how they are used. Isn't Thomas in the slot? Also isn't he one of Drew's first reads? I think Harmon is one of Haskins's first reads but playing on the outside against different type of CBs. I don't think he has a problem beating press on the outside, but how many of his routes are going to go across the short middle vs the deep middle and deep outside?

 

I take Cooley, Sheehan, and all the draft gurus as points on the skatterplot. Their insight is useful but they do podcasts about how wrong they are about certain players. Even with Haskins, Cooley said he would try to be more positive about him and Sheehan has been a lot more positive about him in his last 3 weeks or so. One thing about draft analysts and player projection is that the players are people and we don't know what will happen in a person's life that makes something click for them and suddenly a switch is flipped and we see a whole different player. The prime example of this is Lorenzo Alexander who is as rare of a story as you'll ever hear about but the only thing I care about in terms of his scouting reports and draft profiles was his hustle and determination, and we saw that in terms of special teams and playing DL, OL, LB, FB, TE, etc and changing in size so much until he finally developed into a consistent LB. Similar story with Trent Murphy who was a LB then converted to DL then back to LB and has a breakout year. 

 

Its one of the reasons I don't like to depend even too much on just stats or film review. It tells you a lot of the "up to now" stuff. But in college a guy like Guice didn't catch a lot of balls. Some scouts dismissed his pass catching ability and said he's just a grind it out runner. Most others said he just wasn't asked to catch the ball at LSU but if he were asked, he could add that element to his game. But those who said that were assuming that he could (a) run routes and (b) catch the ball. And that brings me back to Sprinkle. He's a guy who didn't have the great stats in college, but his scouting reports both showed praise for his hands and concern there, praise for his route running but also concern, praise for his separation and concern, same with his blocking. So the question becomes that now we're having a second year with him getting a lot of time as the primary TE, but this time with a (debatable) legit NFL QB throwing him the ball. And this year he's running better routes and getting open which is better than last year. Now he just needs to learn to catch the ball. 

 

But a guy like Sprinkle is the kind of player I look at as a measurement of our player development. We know where he was when he came in, where he was when he first got to play and I'm looking to see him improve as time goes forward. If he can just start bringing the ball in, it really opens up our offense because nobody is afraid of him (nor should they be) and he has an opportunity to really be a relief for Haskins. 

23 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

Michael Thomas has dropped approximately 15 passes since 2010. If you pass it to him, he’s coming down with it. He’s going to shatter the reception record this year, and that’s without Brees half the season. Can’t compare anyone to him but Larry Fitzgerald imo. 

Yeah thats something and I saw he hadn't dropped a ball in like 210 attempts. Thats Fitzgerald like. Henson has a ways to go to get on that level. And it starts with using both hands to catch the ball. 

[KDawg]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

He is absolutely pushing the ball down field. So far down field it's missing receivers by 8 yards.

 

For the improvements he's made, this is a strange hill to plant your flag. 

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Yeah I agree with you in terms of need for weapons. But I think he's trying to turn Sprinkle into a weapon. Its amazing to watch because this isn't the same Sprinkle I saw last year with Josh Johnson. He's not an all pro by any means and I wouldn't even say that I'm a big Sprinkle guy (though that may still mean I'm a bigger Sprinkle guy than you). I do think we need to upgrade TE but that's not likely to happen until next March at earliest. Sprinkle is going to get the most of the action until then. N

 

My main issue with Sprinkle is he isn't that much of a blocker.  the whole idea of Sprinkle was to finally get a TE who can block.  But that doesn't seem to be his thing.  And he has inconsistent hands.  If he was a good blocker I could live with him easier.

 

25 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

I often compared Harmon to Thomas but it depends on how they are used. Isn't Thomas in the slot? Also isn't he one of Drew's first reads? I think Harmon is one of Haskins's first reads but playing on the outside against different type of CBs. I don't think he has a problem beating press on the outside, but how many of his routes are going to go across the short middle vs the deep middle and deep outside?

 

 

Thomas is lined up all over the place, he plays some slot but plenty outside, too.   Harmon played a lot in NC State at least when I watched him on the right side, which is typically the Z side here.  I think he'd be a good slot receiver.  I think he's decent at Z too.  Cooley seems to think he should play X, like Garcon did here.

 

25 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I take Cooley, Sheehan, and all the draft gurus as points on the skatterplot. Their insight is useful but they do podcasts about how wrong they are about certain players. Even with Haskins, Cooley said he would try to be more positive about him and Sheehan has been a lot more positive about him in his last 3 weeks or so.

 

I don't consider Sheehan a player evaluation type but he does watch a lot of college football.  Cooley dives in deep.  And I don't blame him or anyone for getting it wrong on some players.  As Parcells likes to say even the best get it wrong about 50% of the time.  If Cooley or anyone was nailing it lets say 90% of the time, then he should be working in a FO and will be headed straight to the hall of fame when his career is over.

 

I listen to Cooley and others but if I have time (I usually do in the off season not so much now) I'll watch and make my own decisions.  I've gotten some ones right, some wrong like anyone else.  But at least for me, I get really hardcore jazzed for players when I fall for what I see.  My all time on that front is probably Guice.  A regular on the draft thread actually went when we took him where's SIP he's probably going nuts out of joy.  It is a lot of fun when you fall for a player and they take that guy.

 

Harmon was one of the last players I watched closely before the draft.  I wasn't enamored with him like I was with Guice but I really liked him.  McLaurin, too.   I was whining for a couple of rounds both on the board and to my wife while watching the draft about them skipping Harmon.  I told her in the 6th round, I'd pop champage if they took Harmon.  And they did.  So now I tell me wife whenever she's watching and harmon makes a play, that's the champagne guy. 

 

As for Haskins or really any player, I don't care if Sheehan or Haskins is negative or positive.  I don't think their thoughts are agenda driven.  If I am just getting positive spin about a player then I find the evaluator useless.  I can just watch Redskins Nation then and just hear the glass half full story.  

 

I'll give Sheehan and Cooley for owning up to their prior views no matter what.  Sheehan was a big Kerryon Johnson guy over Guice.  I much preferred Guice.  So Sheehan at least admits he wasn't a big Guice guy and he looks better than he thought.  Ditto on Haskins.  I am not offended if Cooley, Sheehan or whomever doesn't fall madly in love with each player they draft.   I don't want Cooley or any evaluator to sugar coat their opinion.  And I am not killing anyone for getting some wrong -- everyone gets some wrong. 

[Fresh8686]

51 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Harmon was one of the last players I watched closely before the draft.  I wasn't enamored with him like I was with Guice but I really liked him.  McLaurin, too.   I was whining for a couple of rounds both on the board and to my wife while watching the draft about them skipping Harmon.  I told her in the 6th round, I'd pop champage if they took Harmon.  And they did.  So now I tell me wife whenever she's watching and harmon makes a play, that's the champagne guy.

 

Lol, I do similar for Steven Sims Jr. every time he makes a play. He was my sleeper pick to make the team that I bored my wife with ever since we picked him up as an UDFA.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

He is absolutely pushing the ball down field. So far down field it's missing receivers by 8 yards.

 

For the improvements he's made, this is a strange hill to plant your flag. 

Hyperbole aside, he absolutely needs to improve his deep ball.  I was encouraged by his one deep throw to McLaurin last week that had a nice arc to it (and uncharacteristically went through Terry’s hands).  
 

He’s done a decent job on the digs, etc. (I’ve never really gotten the classification of 15+ as deep balls, to me, less than 20 is more intermediate).  Does need to get better at hitting guys in stride on those.  

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Hyperbole aside, he absolutely needs to improve his deep ball.  I was encouraged by his one deep throw to McLaurin last week that had a nice arc to it (and uncharacteristically went through Terry’s hands).  
 

He’s done a decent job on the digs, etc. (I’ve never really gotten the classification of 15+ as deep balls, to me, less than 20 is more intermediate).  Does need to get better at hitting guys in stride on those.  

 

if you noticed, Terry jumped almost unnecessarily on that one. I'd have to watch again to confirm that. But that was my first take. And the reason I think he jumped and consequentially dropped it? He didn't expect it to be in that spot and that he'd have to make a tougher catch than that would have been.

[Thinking Skins]

https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/john-keim-report/dwayne-haskins-has-a-mentor-Zyz1FbiX-qS/

 

That's the John Keim Report. There's a REALLY good interview with Haskins here. He talks about blocking out some of the negatives and its really interesting to hear how his mind works. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Rookie slot receiver Steven Sims has played a combined 56 snaps the past two weeks -- after playing 73 in the first 10 games. Look for the speedy Sims to continue playing more even when Trey Quinn returns from a concussion. "[Sims] just gives us a different dimension in the slot," interim coach Bill Callahan said. "Hopefully we can feature him a little more." Sims has excelled at winning one-on-one routes over the middle; one player said they need to find a way to get him the ball more.

 

John Keim, ESPN Staff Writer1m ago

 

[Commander Wolffe]

Interesting offseason we had at the wr position Mclaurin, Harmon and Simms.

[TommyWilson]

On 12/4/2019 at 2:46 PM, TryTheBeal! said:

The most neutral parties are surely the ones that absolutely can’t stop telling you how neutral they are.

 

🤔

If I die, tell my wife I said "hello"

[HigSkin]

9 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

I don't understand what your post and this tweet have in common?

 

I also don't understand the tweet. It seems fairly contradictory... Or is this guy defending Snyder?

 

Neither is related to each other but common in content about Haskins.  1) we don't have a TE to help Haskins along. 2) glad we didn't trade for Rosen and got Haskins instead

[PartyPosse]

8 hours ago, Fergasun said:

FWIW, Haskins is last overall in Football Outsiders DVOA.  The divergence between pure statistical DVOA and PFF lead me to think that PFF is  being more rosy in their assessment of his performance.  

 

Looking at other QBs with just as bad ratings-- Goff is the only comparison.  He sucked this much as a rookie.  Luck was also bad as a rookie, but not this bad. 

 

The other names are pretty bad... Cody Kesller, Mark Sanchez, Deshone Kizer, TJ Yates, Blaine Gabbert... 

 

 

While that may be true, Haskins does rank 14th in PWFAR while considering the RVW ranking of his options (Mclaurin 42, Harmon 63-A are the highest), i'm surprised his WVRAA isn't higher than it is!

 

Everything sounds so technical with abbreviations. I made all of those ones up.

[KDawg]

Analytics belong in sports.

 

But people relying completely on them and not their eyes is a total mistake. 
 

Stop doing that.

[skinsmania123]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/john-keim-report/dwayne-haskins-has-a-mentor-Zyz1FbiX-qS/

 

That's the John Keim Report. There's a REALLY good interview with Haskins here. He talks about blocking out some of the negatives and its really interesting to hear how his mind works. 

It is a very good interview and he comes off pretty damn mature.  l actually thought his reasoning process was excellent regarding social media.  Some guys that get criticized learn if they are going to keep their emotions in check, need to stop reading articles, need to stop listening to sports commentators,  and come off twitter. Heck it has worked for a number of NFL players. It is smart.  Kirk Cousins said it this year. He does not follow what anyone says about him.  Also I like that Alex is mentoring him a bit. He is a very level-headed guy IMO.

[Thinking Skins]

 

[KDawg]

The narrative that Haskins is playing great but his receivers are screwing him is exhausting.

 

He's not playing great. His receivers have dropped balls. Those are pretty much facts.

 

Haskins wasn't bad last week by any means. I also don't think he was good. But his performance last week is more than passable in the grand scheme of things. 

 

But let's talk about trust. There is a reason so many receivers are dropping balls that hit them in the hands from Haskins: They don't trust that the ball is going to be where they need it to be. And, to be honest, it's probably a similar situation from Haskins eyes to the receivers. There is not a ton of trust there. Those guys need to be on the same page, they need to be able to move on from the mistakes in-game. 

 

I'm not sure all of the guys involved can do that.

 

People make the mistake of thinking playing quarterback only has to do with mechanics/arm strength/reads/accuracy. They're wrong. 

 

There's a reason Peyton Manning can have an absolutely abysmal season and win the Super Bowl with the Denver Broncos.

 

There's a reason why Trent Dilfer can win a Super Bowl with the Ravens.

 

Trust.

 

No matter what happened, those guys had teammates who believed they'd come through when it mattered. 

 

Having said all of that, this is all a part of development of a quarterback. It's not JUST about the quarterback. It's about the quarterback and their relationship with the people that surround them: players, coaches, media, fans.

 

Haskins' story is not etched in stone. He's improved week to week in some areas, and not in others. But this is a process. And whether he's the starter next year or not, I think it's important that the Skins keep him on the roster, as long as he's not a distraction. Relationships take time to develop. And the beginnings can be bumpy sometimes.

 

And as much as those wide receivers and tight ends literally and metaphorically dropped the ball last week, there is more at play than just them dropping the ball.

[skinny21]

22 hours ago, Fergasun said:

FWIW, Haskins is last overall in Football Outsiders DVOA.  The divergence between pure statistical DVOA and PFF lead me to think that PFF is  being more rosy in their assessment of his performance.  

 

Looking at other QBs with just as bad ratings-- Goff is the only comparison.  He sucked this much as a rookie.  Luck was also bad as a rookie, but not this bad. 

 

The other names are pretty bad... Cody Kesller, Mark Sanchez, Deshone Kizer, TJ Yates, Blaine Gabbert... 

 

 

I’m not familiar enough with DVOA to know, but I wonder if PFF factors in things that don’t show up on the stats sheets - like the play Haskins scrambled and threw to Sprinkle for a would be 1st down, or the long throw to McLaurin that got called back.  Conversely, it’s certainly possible that PFF just doesn’t dive enough into the analytics that lead to a low DVOA. 
 

@KDawg I haven’t seen that many posts on drop balls, though maybe you’re not referring to ES?  I like your thoughts though regarding trust.  I also wholeheartedly agree with your earlier post about stats vs what our eyes tell us.

Personally, I think there have been a number of throws that have been dropped that would have helped Haskins stats and (more importantly) moved the chains or given us a 2pt conversion/TD.  On the other hand, we’ve seen numerous impressive catches on pretty poorly thrown balls.  So a very mixed bag, IMO.  
I’d like to see Haskins accuracy (continue to?) improve, and I’d like to see the team add a pass catching threat at TE*, Sprinkle become more consistent with his catching and Steve Sims utilized more.  

* I’d prefer a well-rounded TE, but barring that... 

[CowboyKillerz]

Seeing JP Holtz with the most recieving yards for da Bears at half time... Sucked.

 

What the hell happened to Donald 7 foot monster whats his name??? Surely he can drop the ball as good as Sprinkle?? I remeber some good chemstry developing between him and Haskins at camp.. BIG target is NICE and he has to be at worst as bad as Sprinkle at blocking too- if only for his shear size alone

[CowboyKillerz]

Pharam... Apparently he is in the XFL. With Reed and Davis gone.. He needs to be called up!!

 

This almost made me tear up.. Sob Reed looked good before he got killed-

😭

 

"2) Wide receiver Terry McLaurin and tight end Jordan Reed have been a few of the top performers.

The Redskins are hopeful one of their wide receivers will emerge as a consistent option this season, and so far rookie Terry McLaurin has looked the part. He has displayed his crisp route running abilities, reliable hands and top-end speed that made him so productive at Ohio State and a third-round pick in the 2019 NFL Draft.

Tight end Jordan Reed has also shown some of that explosiveness that made him a dominant force in 2015, when he recorded nearly 1,000 receiving yards. A healthy Jordan Reed is a dangerous Jordan Reed, especially in an offense that already features the running back trio of Adrian Peterson, Derrius Guice and Chris Thompson and a slew of talented wideouts. His presence creates mismatches over the middle of the field that opens things up for everyone else."

[Thinking Skins]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

 Personally, I think there have been a number of throws that have been dropped that would have helped Haskins stats and (more importantly) moved the chains or given us a 2pt conversion/TD.  On the other hand, we’ve seen numerous impressive catches on pretty poorly thrown balls.  So a very mixed bag, IMO.  

I think this is an important element that's being left out. Drops are one thing and how they help/hurt his stats are one thing. But the fact that a mistake is made on a play can mean that we don't get a new set of downs and thus have 3 less opportunities to throw the ball. 

 

That's why I was impressed with Smith last year and Haskins this year. Its not that we're seeing the gaudy numbers that make fans googley eyed. Its that they're moving the ball and getting us into scoring positions even with the mistakes they're (and the team is) making. We could be scoring more points and we could be looking a lot better but in both instances (Smith and Haskins) they're learning a new system and getting used to new WRs and TEs.

 

@KDawg mentioned the word trust and I think thats a good way to put it. I think it great that Haskins has relationships with both Harmon and McLaurin, but not in this offense which he only has like 7 weeks of really getting reps in. And add to that Sims who he played with in the offseason, but that's when Sims was an unheard of guy who had almost no shot at making the team so I doubt they have much chemistry. We saw it on a lot of plays where Sims was open underneath and Haskins went for the deeper routes. Keim and later Haskins in his press conference pointed this out and said that he needed to stop being over aggressive.  

 

I think this is a learning opportunity and the fact that he's not making really critical mistakes is impressing me enough right now. I don't care whose fault it is that we have an incompletion to Sprinkle on third down, i just want a completion and a first down next time. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

17 hours ago, KDawg said:

Analytics belong in sports.

 

But people relying completely on them and not their eyes is a total mistake. 
 

Stop doing that.

This. 

 

I think this can be separated into two distinct categories. There are some things which most sites simply don't keep track of, like Guice's stat on number of seconds before he gets to the LOS, or yards after contact. But then there are other metrics that try to be an end-all be-all of it. Like PFF's grading system saying that Player X has an 88.7 grade. Remember when ?Was it Tom Compton? had one of the highest PFF grades in the league, but we were watching him and saying how bad he was from week to week? 

 

Somewhere in this is stuff like assignments. I remember criticizing Cooley because he would be doing a film review and assume he knew assignments and thus criticize one player over another. But Cooley is more informed than a site that's advertising for employment randomly on twitter.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[ggarriso]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Just when you think "simba" cant get any more cringeworthy he finds a way!!  Hilarious watching everyone trip over themselves to protect his fragile ego when his stats are next level terrible.