FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[volsmet]

Couldn’t be worse than Darnold. 
 

 

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

Couldn’t be worse than Darnold. 
 

 

 

What's the real benefit to seeing Haskins play? Is it so we can say he's good or bad? People talk about rookies starting, but normally they play very poorly, and often get hurt. Will we feel better if Haskins has another Giants game or a game with numbers similar to Case or Colt? Or Darnold? 

 

But people say we don't develop players, look at guys like Moses, Ion, Rouller, Thompson, Reed, Settle, Fuller, Moreau, right now with Christian and Apke. We're doing that right now. 

 

There used to be a debate among QBs that went like, qbs are so much better off by sitting because they're not forced to play when the game is so fast, on what's generally such a bad team. And I don't think this is a bad team, but offensively I think we are lacking. I doubt many other good QBs could have put up numbers yesterday. And on top of that, I don't want him getting afraid of throwing ints or making a bad play, and being Cousins-ed or Smith-ed, where he's just doing dumpoffs. 

 

What we know is that he's going to have growing pains. What seems different (and time will tell) is that Cal seems to have more of a plan to get him reps and help get him ready. I dint have much to go on other than him being named #2, getting the #1 reps last Wednesday, and #3 Colt being a healthy scratch. 

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

Maybe, but that's why I surround him with quality QB guys who can help him, not necessarily with tons of advice but by teaching him how to be a pro. Who better than Doug Williams? And, there's a chance that every coach here with him this year is gone after the season. Doug would provide some continuity, assuming he stays. The Redskins need to establish good, knowledgable influences to surround him with asap and I don't know if he's getting that or not? I assume he is but who? Carson Wentz had Frank Reich and Doug Peterson for example, two ex-NFL QB's working with him. Who does Dwayne have that has any NFL experience at the position? 

 

Kevin O'Connell

[volsmet]

9 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

What's the real benefit to seeing Haskins play? Is it so we can say he's good or bad? People talk about rookies starting, but normally they play very poorly, and often get hurt. Will we feel better if Haskins has another Giants game or a game with numbers similar to Case or Colt? Or Darnold? 

 

 

The benefit of playing is getting live reps, building chemistry with your teammates & adjusting to the speed of the game. I see no reason not to get him playing time. We need to see how he responds, we need to have some semblance of a plan headed into the winter, the rest of this season is nothing but evaluating what we’ve got.

[Thinking Skins]

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/does-sitting-a-rookie-quarterback-actually-help-long-term/

 

Another element that the Jags, Raiders, and Browns are obviously taking into account is whether a rookie quarterback gives them the best chance to win more games now. None of these teams is in line to compete for a Super Bowl, but there’s something to be said about maybe staying a bit more competitive while your rookie quarterback gets a chance to learn.

 

The numbers there are about as helpful as they are with individual quarterbacks — so, not very. Since 1999, the teams that have sat their first- or second-round rookie quarterback for a majority of their games have won an average of 7.32 games. Teams that start theirs have won 7.16. It’s not a considerable difference, and each group has its share of extreme examples that might push the numbers one way or the other. I already mentioned Kaepernick and Osweiler, and the rookie starters group has Roethlisberger’s 15 wins in 2004, which were mostly the product of an all-time great defense.

 

It isn’t the most exciting conclusion, but I’d say that from these examples, it looks like a quarterback is going to succeed independent of whether he starts as a rookie. Situation seems to have more of an impact than time spent on the bench. Daunte Culpepper walked on to a team with Cris Carter and Randy Moss. That probably mattered more than learning the professional ropes from Jeff George. Carson Palmer went from 60.9 percent completions and a dead-even touchdown-to-interception ratio as a rookie to 67.8, 32 touchdowns, and 12 interceptions in his second year. In his case, spending 16 games getting a feel for professional football apparently helped.

 

There isn’t a right choice, and as teams do their best to spin the one they make over the next three months, that’s worth remembering. Whether Manziel, Bortles, and Carr are ready to start as rookies is one thing. Knowing there’s no defined path that will turn them into quality, long-term starters is another.

[Thinking Skins]

https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/when-to-start-your-rookie-quarterback-050715/

 

Quote

 

We notice a few things.

First, the distinct trend of the NFL starting quarterbacks getting their first start earlier and earlier into their career. Routinely, ~13 QBs are drafted annually (no fewer than 11 have been drafted in any draft since 2000).

We see an avg of 6 QBs/yr (with 10+ career starts) were taken in the first 4 years of this analysis (2000-2003), and 5 QBs/yr taken in the last 4 years (2011-2014).

– From 2000-03, drafted quarterbacks saw their first start come in their 19th game (19.5 to be exact, which is between the 3rd and 4th game of their 2nd season)

– From 2011-14, drafted quarterbacks saw their first start come before their 5th game (4.7) of their rookie season.

That is a HUGE shift.
 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Findings by Players Who Started in the First Month of their Rookie Season

Whether a player starts week 1 or week 2, 3 or 4, those are all early starts in a player’s career. While that’s becoming the norm for the quarterback position, particularly high draft picks, it is interesting to look at the results from players who got their first start within the first month of their career:  

 

We can clearly see that for those QBs who started early but were not first round draft picks, the results were typically not strong. These included Bruce Gradkowski, Chris Weinke, Jimmy Clausen, Trent Edwards, Derek Carr and Quincy Carter. Geno Smith and Mike Glennon fit into this group, but their careers are likely still too young to write them off but it’s certainly a possibility. Kyle Orton never had a prolific career passing, but did some good things on certain teams in his career. The two lone anomalies would be Russell Wilson and Andy Dalton, as players who started early but were not first round picks who are having a good career thus far.

But for every young first round draft pick who started early with success (like Matt Ryan, Ben Roethlisberger, Andrew Luck, Joe Flacco, Mathew Stafford) we see countless players who were not developed early enough who flamed out, like Blaine Gabbert, Kyle Boller, Brandon Weeden, Joey Harrington, etc. There really is no striking data here to say that, had these bad QBs been given more time to develop, they could have done better. It speaks more obviously to lack of talent and missing in the draft room.

So simply looking at only QBs who started early, we see no distinct pattern or “guide” to follow. Some guys hit it off well, others bombed terribly. The only advice to take in this section is that in general, if a QB has fallen out of the first round, there is a reason, and its wise to develop that player rather than thrust him into the starting line-up in the infancy of his career.

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

 

Also probably unsurprising, the players who were held out and groomed saw their passer rating significantly higher in their first year of action than those who started their rookie season.  And, their first year’s passer rating was much closer to their year 2-4 average.  Which is good to note.  Because it indicates that the player is closer to reaching their full potential when they first come under center, and are better equipped to handle their responsibilities.

 

In fact, the passer rating avg for this group in year 1 was identical to that of year 2, meaning the NFL “learning curve” was absorbed while watching from the bench and via reps/development.  As Joe mentioned the saying for NFL rookies “everyone just got better except you”, but there apparently practice reps and development may do more for a QB than originally assumed.

 

 

 

There's a lot more to that article, and there are a lot more articles out there discussing this. Its just frustrating to think that I used to come here and see others post legit arguments and have discussions about the start vs sit argument (we had it for Jason Campbell vs Brunell and Colt Brennan vs Campbell), but it wasn't just arguments about "he's a bust because ...", there were a lot of really informative posts. It saddens me to see so many people on here who have given up so easily, and not on the team - on the player. But watch when he's throwing a 4 TD game its gonna be "I knew it".

 

I really came (to this thread) here because after reading this, hearing Haskins's comments on Friday and the discussions on the radio today, I'm wondering what's going on in DC. Have you never had aged wine? Why must you rush it? Let it marinate and know that there are good things down the road. 

 

[skinny21]

4 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Maybe, but that's why I surround him with quality QB guys who can help him, not necessarily with tons of advice but by teaching him how to be a pro. Who better than Doug Williams? And, there's a chance that every coach here with him this year is gone after the season. Doug would provide some continuity, assuming he stays. The Redskins need to establish good, knowledgable influences to surround him with asap and I don't know if he's getting that or not? I assume he is but who? Carson Wentz had Frank Reich and Doug Peterson for example, two ex-NFL QB's working with him. Who does Dwayne have that has any NFL experience at the position? 

Kevin O’Connell, Matt Cavanaugh, Tim Rattay.  

I expect Gruden, Keenum, McCoy and Alex Smith have had some varying degree of input as well.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

Callahan said in Redskins Talk Pod basically to expect Keenum at least until the bye.  And possibly all year.

 

This is so disappointing.

[DJHJR86]

16 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

Seems to be 2 takes on this thread, those of us who just want to know what we have going into the offseason and those who think he's a bust based on 2 quarters of football.

 

There is more writing on the wall other than 2 quarters of football.  Have you seen how terrible Colt McCoy and Case Keenum have looked?  2 different coaches have come to the conclusion that they are still the better option moving forward despite the season being over.  I don't know why this doesn't scare the hell out of more people, but it certainly worries me.  Then there's this:
 

 

Callahan is adamant that Case is their QB.

[Voice_of_Reason]

It is so disappointing that this organization isn’t even attempting anything to get Haskins on the field.  Even for a drive or two.  They’re out of the playoff race so what’s the reason not to? 

 

I don’t know if it’s Dan, Bruce, or Bill, but it’s just stupid on steroids. 

[JSSkinz]

2 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

2 different coaches have come to the conclusion that they are still the better option moving forward despite the season being over.  I don't know why this doesn't scare the hell out of more people, but it certainly worries me.

Jay choosing Colt and Case over Haskins in his do or die year makes sense to me so thats not scary at all and with Callahan I think he starts Haskins after the bye week so if that doesn't happen then I'll get scared.

 

I've heard enough opinions on Haskins, I want to see him play.

[DJHJR86]

2 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Jay choosing Colt and Case over Haskins in his do or die year makes sense to me so thats not scary at all and with Callahan I think he starts Haskins after the bye week so if that doesn't happen then I'll get scared.

 

Callahan said that Keenum is the starter long term.  

[goskins10]

12 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

There is more writing on the wall other than 2 quarters of football.  Have you seen how terrible Colt McCoy and Case Keenum have looked?  2 different coaches have come to the conclusion that they are still the better option moving forward despite the season being over.  I don't know why this doesn't scare the hell out of more people, but it certainly worries me.  Then there's this:
 

Edit 

 

Callahan is adamant that Case is their QB.

 

Right up until he is not. 

[Sonny9TD]

Just saw where the Patriots called for a total blitzkrieg on the Jets QB. Manusky would never bring the heat like that with his confusing defense. Darnold would have lit the Skins up. The defense is sure enough a coaching deal that separates the good from the bad.  Thats the difference between HOF coaches and coaches we seem to prefer.

[goskins10]

Just now, DJHJR86 said:

 

Callahan said that Keenum is the starter long term.  

 

That's not what he said. He said he is starter now. The reporter asked if that included after the bye he said that's the way were working yes. That is not Case the long term answer. 

 

But he is going to say that right up until he makes the change. There is no way he comes out publicly and says - well we are giving Case a few more starts to get Haskins ready then bench him for Haskins. He is just a placeholder. That would be really dumb. I get fans want to hear that and think they are entitled to know that information. But they are now. 

 

So as I said before, Case is the starter until he is not. And I still maintain that is either after the MN game or after the bye, especially if Case continues to stink it up like he did on Sunday.  

[DJHJR86]

4 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

That's not what he said. He said he is starter now. The reporter asked if that included after the bye he said that's the way were working yes. That is not Case the long term answer. 

 

Finlay: "So long term...maybe passed...at least until the bye week I'm guessing."

Callahan: "That's the direction we're headed in right now."

 

Also Callahan: "Case is still our quarterback, that's where we're at currently, and I don't see anything changing in the future."

 

Pretty definitive.  

 

[JSSkinz]

9 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Callahan said that Keenum is the starter long term.  

When?  Do you have a quote?  I've heard him confirm each of the last 2 weeks that Case is the starter but I havent picked up any vibes that Case is locked in for the year.

 

 

[DJHJR86]

1 minute ago, JSSkinz said:

When?  Do you have a quote?  I've heard him confirm each of the last 2 weeks that Case is the starter but I havent picked up any vibes that Case is locked in for the year.

 

"Case is still our quarterback, that's where we're at currently, and I don't see anything changing in the future."

I don't know how more definitive that could be.

[skinny21]

3 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Callahan said that Keenum is the starter long term.  

I do find this concerning, but I could see him wanting Keenum to feel comfortable.  

1 minute ago, goskins10 said:

 

Right up until he is not. 

Exactly.  I’m not going to assume anything, but from a franchise standpoint, it would be pretty idiotic to not play Haskins at all this year.  OTOH... this is the Redskins.   God help us if the plan is to finish the year with Keenum, and then turn to Alex Smith next year.  

[JSSkinz]

1 minute ago, DJHJR86 said:

Finlay: "So long term...maybe passed...at least until the bye week I'm guessing."

Callahan: "That's the direction we're headed in right now."

 

Also Callahan: "That's where we are currently, Case is still our quarterback, and I don't see anything changing in the future."

So is Finlay asking if Case is the QB at least until the bye week and Callahan responds with "That's the direction we're headed in right now"?

 

Am I reading that wrong?

 

[DJHJR86]

5 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I do find this concerning, but I could see him wanting Keenum to feel comfortable.

 

Why?  Keenum should be as uncomfortable as possible because of how awful he's played.  

 

3 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

So is Finlay asking if Case is the QB at least until the bye week and Callahan responds with "That's the direction we're headed in right now"?

 

Am I reading that wrong?

 

Finlay asked him about Haskins, Callahan says they believe in Keenum at that he's the QB and he doesn't see anything changing "in the future", then Finaly follows up with, "passed the bye week or up until the bye week", and Callahan says "that's the direction we're headed in right now."

 

Finlay asked him directly when will Haskins be put in for his development and Callahan made a point to say that Keenum was the QB and that it wasn't changing in the future.

[JSSkinz]

5 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Why?  Keenum should be as uncomfortable as possible because of how awful he's played.  

 

 

Finlay asked him about Haskins, Callahan says they believe in Keenum at that he's the QB and he doesn't see anything changing "in the future", then Finaly follows up with, "passed the bye week or up until the bye week", and Callahan says "that's the direction we're headed in right now."

 

Finlay asked him directly when will Haskins be put in for his development and Callahan made a point to say that Keenum was the QB and that it wasn't changing in the future.

I don't believe him and I wouldnt expect Callahan to say Case is keeping the spot warm until Haskins is ready.

 

He's going to look like an idiot keeping Haskins on the bench as we hit 1-8, 1-9, and 1-10, good luck on that.

 

 

[goskins10]

12 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Finlay: "So long term...maybe passed...at least until the bye week I'm guessing."

Callahan: "That's the direction we're headed in right now."

 

Also Callahan: "Case is still our quarterback, that's where we're at currently, and I don't see anything changing in the future."

 

Pretty definitive.  

 

 

Right, passed the bye. That's the only thing definitive. Do you believe Haskins will never play this year from that statement? If so, have at it. I do not. And he qualified it to say that's where we are currently - leaving it open to change. And him saying I dont; see anything changing is again still vague. He can also step that back with things have clearly change. Again, what else is he supposed to say - yea we think Case is a POS but we need him a few more weeks so we will start him until we think Haskins is ready and we will sit his ass.  LOL  

 

If he sits the whole season, then so be it. But I do not see it happening - at all. Especially let Case lay a few more eggs like last Sunday. 

 

 

[skins4ever28]

I still think him not playing right now is a good thing.  I wouldn't play him until the very last few games of the season.  Let him soak up as much as he can.  Its a lost art, a QB drafted in the 1st round sitting for a year.  It used to be the best thing for the QB, sitting him and letting him take it all in that year, but now its looked at as crazy.  Heres the other thing, I think a lot of the QBs of todays world don't have a coach that caters to their strengths. I also think theres some good QBs that are performing GREAT because of how good the coaching is.  Deshaun Watson, is a good player, a really good player.  But, O'Brien is catering to his strengths and just making him look absolutely insane.  Mahomes is a great player, but Andy Reid knows how to form an offense around his strengths.  Wilson, Dak, theres a lot of coaching that gets overlooked but shouldn't be.  Jay was stubborn and wasn't going to tailor his offense around a guy, he wanted a guy to tailor his play around his offense. 

Theres a reason Gibbs won 3 SBs with 3 diff qbs, he completely changed his offensive style for each one of those qbs.  And, the biggest magic trick he pulled was making Mark Brunell look like a freaking pro bowler when he was 39ish years old.  But, he did it by tailoring the offense in a max protect type game plan so brunell had time. 

I don't think Callahan is going to really tailor anything, so again Im not a big fan of throwing DH in there right now.  But, what do I know.  I totally understand why a lot of folks want him in, and I am not arguing that anyone is wrong, its just in a weird way I am kinda happy that he hasn't gotten thrown to the wolveS(other then the NYG game), but Ive always  been a fan of the rookie QB sitting for the first year.

[volsmet]

No coach has ever said they were going to replace their starting QB, with a rookie QB, after a bye week. Sometimes the kind & gentle folks of the ES seem to be processing their first ever nfl football season.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Callahan said in Redskins Talk Pod basically to expect Keenum at least until the bye.  And possibly all year.

 

This is so disappointing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They are only 1-6.    They can still sneak into the playoffs.  So all hands on deck. The future is now!