FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Another question: what if Case completely sucks and Gruden is in danger of losing the locker room?  The offensive line is going to be the same (assuming health) regardless of whether or not it's week 1 or whatever week Keenum gets inevitably benched.  Which makes sitting Haskins crazy to me.  

 

This is the same as what I detailed above. Situations that force someone's hand completely turn the scenario on its head.

[DJHJR86]

21 minutes ago, KDawg said:

And the whole, "if he starts then gets benched and it ruins his career, he was a terrible pick and we need to take another QB" mindset is straight poison.

 

So if getting benched ruins both his confidence and his career it was a great pick and we need to not worry about the position?  That makes no sense.  My point was that if Haskins is that fragile (and I don't think he is) to completely shut down after being benched, he's not the future anyway.  

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

So if getting benched ruins both his confidence and his career it was a great pick and we need to not worry about the position? 

 

Not what I said.

 

But I think you're overlooking the human element of athletes.

[DJHJR86]

Going back to 2019 (and not counting last year's draft) the following QB's were taken in the first round and also saw significant (8+ starts) play time in their rookie year:

-Stafford

-Sanchez

-Bradford

-Gabbert

-Freeman

-Ponder

-Newton

-Luck

-Griffin

-Tannehill

-Weeden

-Manuel

-Bortles

-Bridgewater

-Winston

-Mariota 

-Wentz

-Trubisky

 

There really is no set formula to predict the whole "sit and learn" theory that keeps getting thrown around.  Does anyone really think that if Weeden would have sat out for a year he'd be some elite level talent still in the league?  Or if Newton didn't start week 1 as a rookie that he would be out of the league by now?  You either have it or you don't.  

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Haskins is gonna be the real deal I think. Dude just has “it”. Excited to watch him grow into that role.

 

The only reason I would like him to start day one are purely selfish in nature. It would make watching the games more interesting for me.

 

I’m fine rolling with Case. That’s what I figured when we brought him in. I’d rather watch Case than Colt.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Theres arguements for and against starting Haskins, and sure that discussion is happening among the players.  Have to ask if veterans are really all in for Case if we talking an 8-8 ceiling, I dont think this is a playoff team if Case starts all 16 games, the lack of talent and eventually injuries will stop that jus like last year.

 

No way to know but I doubt it. When I was watching camp, Haskins had his share of reps with the 1's but on the 2nd practice (the walk throughs) Haskins was always with the 3's.  Colt and Keenum with the 1's.  I'd figure the players got the hint that the coaching staff didn't think he's ready.  I watched 5 Haskins practices, 1 of them he was really good at (beat guys to this day said that was his best camp practice).  Otherwise he looked shakier then the other 2 QBs.    And I am not the only guy with that type of observation -- its pretty much from everyone who watched camp.   His flashes-high points are better than the other 2 but overall both Colt and Keenum looked distinctly crisper.

 

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I honestly believe at this point the reason why Jay isnt prioritizing developing Haskins over having a winning season is because having a losing season this year for any reason will cost him his job.  Hes acting like a coach who hasnt been given the green light to focus on Haskins and his job will be safe if he misses the playoffs.  At this point Jay is doing what's best for him, not the franchise because the franchise hasnt given him the green light.  The thing is, he will lose his job regardless if he fails to develop a second first round QB here, catch-22.

 

 Shawn Springs mentored the kid for over 10 years.  Reddick admitted he knows the Haskins family pretty well and he is arguably the #1 fan of the Haskins fan club.  Why are both not only opposed to Haskins starting right away, they are practically screaming it.  They clearly don't think its best for Haskins' development to throw him right to the wolves. Ditto some guys who played the game like Portis, Smoot, etc.

 

As for Jay, I agree its a catch 22.  I think his only shot to keep his job ironically is for Haskins to end the season well.  In his shoes, i wouldn't put all my chips on Keenum taking them to the playoffs.  So I actually think his interests and Haskins converge.   And IMO his best shot for Haskins to look good isn't to start him right away.  But I still think he's want to play him eventually this season. 

 

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

At this point I feel like I'm repeating myself, but genuinely concerned that by time Haskins goes in there, the team will be decimated by injuries and the arguement will be to sit him the whole year to protect him.  Dudes a professional, hes not a child, at what point do you accept that no matter what hes going to get hit and he needs to learn how to deal with that and practice preventing it?  

 

Haskins explained this himself which is he's going to get better over time just based on having more time to learn the playbook, protections, etc.  Yeah maybe the supporting cast doesn't help him much later in the season, I see your point there.  But Haskins should be better equipped to deal with it then because he will have a better mastery for calling the huddle, protections, play calls, etc.   Right now, Haskins likely has to do a lot of thinking when he plays where if you give him more time some of that stuff will come automatically.

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

You keep saying Case Keenum and Colt McCoy are "breathing down" Haskins' neck.  If the competition is close between a raw rookie quarterback with no NFL experience and 2 veterans with multiple games of NFL experience, what does that say about those 2 veterans?  They should start Haskins, but they won't.

 

That they're not that good and that Haskins is a high end raw talent.  But they're still better than Haskins right now, and much more ready to be the starter this year.  They shouldn't start Haskins, and they won't because they're not fools.

 

Just to reiterate, your plan would play out:

 

1 - Draft a QB in the first round

2 - Set him up for failure in his rookie year

3 - When he fails, draft another QB in the first round next year

 

That would be a demonstration of systemic incompetence.  No young QB would succeed for an organization like that.

 

I'm running out of interest in arguing against this terrible idea that's not going to happen.  Either you eventually see how terrible the idea is or I can't help you.

34 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

The only reason I would like him to start day one are purely selfish in nature. It would make watching the games more interesting for me.

 

This is the real reason for everyone who is arguing to start him week one.  Good on you for being honest and self-aware enough to admit it.  But it'd be bad for both him and the team and it's not going to happen.

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

This is the real reason for everyone who is arguing to start him week one.  Good on you for being honest and self-aware enough to admit it.  But it'd be bad for both him and the team and it's not going to happen.

 

You're a cool dude, but to be honest I get sick of your over generalization of people you disagree with when you go into full on tangent mode.  Some situations are very black and white, Haskins starting week 1 isnt one of them.

[Chachie]

31 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

That would be a demonstration of systemic incompetence. 

 

 

Eehhh... You are aware we're talking about the Washington Redskins, correct?

[Malapropismic Depository]

@Skinsinparadise have you calculated all the formulas for the passer ratings on Keenum and Haskins, to cover all 3 preseason games yet ? 🙂

[Cougarrick]

Eddie Haskell gonna ride that pine since he missed that easy td pass. 😀

[KDawg]

33 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

You're a cool dude, but to be honest I get sick of your over generalization of people you disagree with when you go into full on tangent mode.  Some situations are very black and white, Haskins starting week 1 isnt one of them.

 

I mean, I'd argue it's about as clear cut as any situation.

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Bingo, so why not do that week 1?  At no point is he going to master the playbook this year anyway, most QBs say it takes about 2-3 years to fully master an offense.

 

So your argument is he is not going to master the playbook this year but let's start him anyway for ****s and giggles?

 

If he has to play because of injury or Keenum struggles and he's next man up - thats one thing. Then if (when) Haskins has HIS struggles you just ride it out. If you start Haskins immediately though and he struggles ... then what? With a vet behind him. Much easier to bench the veteran to bring in the rookie AND give the rookie some actual NFL fronts and coverages to study than just throw him the deep end.

 

We need to think long term, and its to Grudens credit he is thinking long term even though he's on a short leash. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

@Skinsinparadise have you calculated all the formulas for the passer ratings on Keenum and Haskins, to cover all 3 preseason games yet ? 🙂

 

86

Dwayne Haskins

WAS

QB

22

41

53.7

13.7

305

7.4

101.7

1

2

11

26.8

55T

4

1

5

65.6

Passing

Rk	Player	Team	Pos	Comp	Att	Pct	Att/G	Yds	Avg	Yds/G	TD	Int	1st	1st%	Lng	20+	40+	Sck	Rate
51	Mike Glennon	OAK	QB	32	48	66.7	16.0	413	8.6	137.7	2	2	20	41.7	53T	5	1	1	90.0
52	Andy Dalton	CIN	QB	19	28	67.9	9.3	220	7.9	73.3	1	1	10	35.7	28	3	0	0	88.4
53	Blake Bortles	LA	QB	10	19	52.6	9.5	112	5.9	56.0	1	0	5	26.3	26	3	0	0	88.0
54	Taylor Heinicke	CAR	QB	12	21	57.1	10.5	113	5.4	56.5	1	0	8	38.1	21	2	0	1	88.0
55	Case Keenum	WAS	QB	16	30	53.3	10.0	213	7.1	71.0	1	0	8	26.7	46T	4	1	1	87.2

[Chachie]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

86

Dwayne Haskins

WAS

QB

22

41

53.7

13.7

305

7.4

101.7

1

2

11

26.8

55T

4

1

5

65.6

Passing

Rk	Player	Team	Pos	Comp	Att	Pct	Att/G	Yds	Avg	Yds/G	TD	Int	1st	1st%	Lng	20+	40+	Sck	Rate
51	Mike Glennon	OAK	QB	32	48	66.7	16.0	413	8.6	137.7	2	2	20	41.7	53T	5	1	1	90.0
52	Andy Dalton	CIN	QB	19	28	67.9	9.3	220	7.9	73.3	1	1	10	35.7	28	3	0	0	88.4
53	Blake Bortles	LA	QB	10	19	52.6	9.5	112	5.9	56.0	1	0	5	26.3	26	3	0	0	88.0
54	Taylor Heinicke	CAR	QB	12	21	57.1	10.5	113	5.4	56.5	1	0	8	38.1	21	2	0	1	88.0
55	Case Keenum	WAS	QB	16	30	53.3	10.0	213	7.1	71.0	1	0	8	26.7	46T	4	1	1	87.2

 

 

 

Those 5 sacks are indicative of the 2nd/3rd string o-lines but OUCH. 😖

[Renegade7]

30 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

So your argument is he is not going to master the playbook this year but let's start him anyway for ****s and giggles?

 

Absolutely not.  I've put forth a web of reasoning behind this and none of it is S&G.  Here's another one: say we have something similar to last year where the calls for benching Alex grows because it seems like we are winning inspite of him not because of him, but we are winning.  Do we jus gut it out the whole year because we might make it to 9-7 even when Haskins is "ready" because we arent technically eliminated yet?  What is more important, this season or Haskins in general?  Priority should be developing Haskins by any means neccesary.

 

Quote

If he has to play because of injury or Keenum struggles and he's next man up - thats one thing. Then if (when) Haskins has HIS struggles you just ride it out. If you start Haskins immediately though and he struggles ... then what? With a vet behind him. Much easier to bench the veteran to bring in the rookie AND give the rookie some actual NFL fronts and coverages to study than just throw him the deep end.

 

We need to think long term, and its to Grudens credit he is thinking long term even though he's on a short leash. 

 

I expect him to figure it out and not buying him going out there too early ruining him.  I'm willing to accept it costing us this season because I believe it's worth it, and the only reason we are having this conversation is the front office hasnt.  Teams put out young QBs to get their lumps all the time when they are rebuilding and have nothing to lose. Keeping Case out there even if hes terrible is a short term decision, not a long term one.

32 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I mean, I'd argue it's about as clear cut as any situation.

No, it's not. Theres a web of reasoning that can go into not playing him at all this year out of fear for this or fear for that, we shouldnt do that if he needs experience.  This conversation will go well into the regular season, people will snap and want him out there if we start getting destroyed whether hes ready or not, a lot of people will flip against there own logic on this one, I'm trying to stay consistent.

[dyst]

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

You either have it or you don't.  

This is so true. Sure, a player may improve if he sits to learn the playbook but sitting won't make a player elite. Elite shows itself from day one.

[KDawg]

16 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

No, it's not. Theres a web of reasoning that can go into not playing him at all this year out of fear for this or fear for that, we shouldnt so that if he needs experience.  This conversation will go well into the regular season, people will snap and want him out there if we start getting destroyed whether hes ready or not, a lot of people will flip against there own logic on this one, I'm trying to stay consistent.

 

For the record, this was kind of my point with my statement that it was clear cut.

 

It's not to you. But it is to steve. It is to me. There is zero part of me that thinks its good to start him from day one. Not a single bone in my body thinks that's good for him or the franchise.

 

That's the thing with opinions. Steve's and yours differ. To him its clear cut. To you it's not. 

 

13 minutes ago, dyst said:

This is so true. Sure, a player may improve if he sits to learn the playbook but sitting won't make a player elite. Elite shows itself from day one.

 

Circumstance dictates these things. But I strongly disagree with this sentiment.

 

There are guys who are elite from day one. I agree there.

 

But there are other players who take some time to develop. Throwing a guy who needs some time behind that offensive line and with the pass catchers that are currently on this roster is not a strong starting point for anyone. I seriously can't for the life of me understand this point of view that elite shows from day one and therefore Haskins should start.

 

I can at least see where the people who want Haskins to start just for the in-game experience are coming from, even if I don't agree. But for the above reasoning I just can't fathom an argument for. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Man, aren't you guys just tired of this?  Debating who should be the Week 1 QB, when Haskins should play, etc?

 

It's very simple.  Haskins, at some point, will get his playing time.  He'll get his starts.  He'll get every single opportunity to show that he belongs.  Me, personally, I'm tired of the speculation, tired of campaigning whether or not he should sit, start...for the record, I'm in the sit him camp but whatever, I don't fault anyone for thinking he should start right away.

 

Whatever is gonna happen is gonna happen.  But Haskins will get his time and we'll get to see what he's got, that's 100%.   Might not happen as soon as some of us want but that's how it goes.

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

For the record, this was kind of my point with my statement that it was clear cut.

 

It's not to you. But it is to steve. It is to me. There is zero part of me that thinks its good to start him from day one. Not a single bone in my body thinks that's good for him or the franchise.

 

That's yalls opinion, and theres nothing wrong with that.  But this is a discussion forum, that's what we're here for, so I dont support overgenralizing anyone's stance either way on this. 

 

I'm telling you, if this season goes south, the conversation of putting Haskins out there even if hes not ready will intensify not dissipate.  The conversation should be over from the obvious actions of the coaching staff but it's not, it wont be until hes out there playing.

 

I'm already mentally prepared for the Haskins chants at FedEx with anonymous inside sources saying the locker room is torn.  That's the only thing consistent about this franchise lately.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Something I think that is getting missed by those that want Haskins starting week 1...

 

You've got to earn the job to earn respect.  I know it's still a touchy subject around here, but remember 2015?  When Robert was annointed the starter begrudgingly by Jay in the offseason.  Camp comes around and it's clear as day that Kirk is the best QB on the roster.  Jay and Scot had to plead their case to Dan that they were going with Kirk, because they had to or risk losing the locker room.

 

If Haskins was out there lighting it up and running the offense as the best QB for the team right now, it's a different story.  But he's not.  And good luck with telling the rest of the team that we're going with Haskins because he needs the reps to be good down the road.  There are a lot of guys on the team that are playing for right now.  While most of us know that right now is at best 7-9, many of the guys on the team don't think that right now.  

 

This is coming from someone that would rather watch paint dry than watch Case Keenum play QB.  My interest level would go up several notches if Haskins was starting from week 1, no doubt.  But it's just not how things work, unless he has shown that he should be starting week 1 and to this point, he hasn't.

[Malapropismic Depository]

7 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Man, aren't you guys just tired of this?  Debating who should be the Week 1 QB, when Haskins should play, etc?

 

 

 

What else can we talk about, though ?

It's like watching a crappy show on TV, but only because there's nothing else good on to watch at the time.

(this analogy applies only to the period where we didn't have so much 'on-demand' tv options)

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 minute ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

What else can we talk about, though ?

It's like watching a crappy show on TV, but only because there's nothing else good on to watch at the time.

(this analogy applies only to the period where we didn't have so much 'on-demand' tv options)

 

You mean like Blacklist?

 

You walked right into that one

 

You're right, not much else to talk about but I feel like it's gone round and round.  

[TradeTheBeal!]

Chances of starting week 1:

 

Keenum 95%

McCoy 5%

Haskins 0%

 

Next!

[Renegade7]

Just now, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

You mean like Blacklist?

 

You walked right into that one

 

You're right, not much else to talk about but I feel like it's gone round and round.  

 

Agreed, at this point I'm looking forward to week 1 getting here so we can see what we really dealing with.

 

The decision has already been made, it will be more interesting seeing who sticks to their stance once the bullets really starting flying.  My stance isnt going to change to cater the offense to where hes at so he can get as much experience as he can, but me talking about isnt going to change anything I jus enjoy bouncing it off of yall. 

 

Even my own Dad disagrees with me, but we both get where we coming from.