FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, SkinsGuy said:

Here is a good article about Haskins by John Keim at ESPN (courtesy of Wildbunny's Breaking News Board):

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/38595/jay-gruden-dwayne-haskins-talent-obvious-deserves-a-shot-to-start

 

I like this part:

 

 

Sounds like he has a good head on his shoulders. That talent alone won't make him elite. It will take hard work and time.

 

I like this too:

 

 

I have no doubt that Haskins has a good head on his shoulders. But let's be honest...do you really see any rookie QB saying they want to be as good as anyone except the best? I have a hard time picturing a 1st year QB saying "You know, I really model my game after Brock Osweiler and Mike Glennon and I hope to one day be a career backup"? 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

"You see the 'wow' plays and you're like, 'Jesus,'" Gruden said. "When he's on, there's nobody you'd rather have than Dwayne. Really. It's pretty. He stands tall; he has a cannon, and he can quicken up his release. He's got great touch. Strong, powerful arm; strong, powerful body. But sometimes when he's off, he's abnormally off. It's kind of weird."

But that reflects Haskins' rookie stature, too. Gruden said there are times when Haskins is focused on remembering the play, repeating it properly, then reading a defense and throwing to new teammates. It's hard to play freely or to remember the situation.

 

I think some of this will come back to the footwork issues and lack of experience, especially against pressure. I noticed over and over when watching his cutups that when he has a clean pocket and his footwork and upper body are in sync, he's super accurate and consistent. But once he gets lazy with his footwork, gets pressured, etc and that upper/lower body connection is lost he becomes very inaccurate very fast. That sounds exactly like what Jay is saying...when he's off, he's very off. 

 

The good news is that that stuff is all very fixable, especially for a hard worker like Haskins appears to be. To be honest, I'd rather have a guy who's super talented but who is also "very off" when he's off because that generally will make it easier to diagnose the root cause(s) and then work on it.

 

It just takes time, which is why I'm willing to be patient with him and don't want him out there unless Jay thinks he's truly ready. 

[Conn]

Gruden's specific comments on Haskins "swinginess", the massive highs and puzzling lows he has due to mechanics etc., are startlingly like things I read about Mahomes as a rookie. He was more of a freak than Haskins, but I think Haskins (as prospects) might have a higher football IQ. But the comments are very similar, the way he's flashing star quality despite being a clueless rookie. 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[SkinsGuy]

14 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I have no doubt that Haskins has a good head on his shoulders. But let's be honest...do you really see any rookie QB saying they want to be as good as anyone except the best? I have a hard time picturing a 1st year QB saying "You know, I really model my game after Brock Osweiler and Mike Glennon and I hope to one day be a career backup"? 

 

That's not how I took the quote.

 

To me, he is saying that, though he wants to be seen and play in the same vein as the likes of Brady and Brees one day, Haskins knows in his heart of hearts, he's not there yet. It will take a lot of work and effort to get there.

 

I guess, to me, that is refreshing. How many QBs have we seen come into the league and think they can just be great, day one, on talent and athleticism alone?

 

The fact that this young kid understands that there is a whole lot more to it than that, is what I was highlighting.

[LD0506]

This is hard in some ways, seeing "Welcome to the NFL rook!" through Haskins eyes while wanting, craving that IT factor QB that can transform our team. I do like that he has his ego in check enough to be honest, he wants to be one of the greats but admits he isn't anywhere near that yet. IMO one of the overlooked/often forgotten aspects of football is that in the end it is THE team game, you have to subsume your own wants to the team, it has to be something bigger than you. So far, DH sure seems like he gets that.

 

Now no one without a severe drug problem thought we'd be making a SB run this year, so the FO and players and fans all need to take a breath and aim for something beyond an immediate gratification boner here and work towards future success. Rebuild/upgrade the O line, coach Haskins ass off, gameplan to keep Keenum out of the ICU, give the coaches some leash if it isn't a 12-4 season, dial back the fan fury if we have to accept some short term pain for long term gain, you know, like grownups might do.

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

Waiting to see him play in preseason...lots of good press! I just don't believe that the media is not gen'ing this up for a QB battle just for "clicks". The Washington Press sucks

[skinzplay]

There's a lot of tutelage that these young guys need when entering the league, especially at QB. It seems like there are a lot of teaching minds on staff to help develop a young QB (I don't count Gruden), so this could be very good for his development. I just hope they let him sit the entire season, watch, learn. Training camp isn't the same as an NFL Sunday when the game is rollin' full speed with something genuine on the line. I want Haskins to see 16 weeks of that action as a learner/spectator. We'll be fine with Keenum and Colt until it's time to turn things over to Haskins. By then, Harbaugh or Rex will be HC anyway. 😄

[Conn]

To whoever was downplaying footwork in relation to arm talent in here: 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

19 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I think some of this will come back to the footwork issues and lack of experience, especially against pressure. I noticed over and over when watching his cutups that when he has a clean pocket and his footwork and upper body are in sync, he's super accurate and consistent. But once he gets lazy with his footwork, gets pressured, etc and that upper/lower body connection is lost he becomes very inaccurate very fast. That sounds exactly like what Jay is saying...when he's off, he's very off. 

 

The good news is that that stuff is all very fixable, especially for a hard worker like Haskins appears to be. To be honest, I'd rather have a guy who's super talented but who is also "very off" when he's off because that generally will make it easier to diagnose the root cause(s) and then work on it.

 

It just takes time, which is why I'm willing to be patient with him and don't want him out there unless Jay thinks he's truly ready. 

 

I did a longish scouting report on Haskins on the draft thread as most of us did on the QBs including you if I call right.  I watched a lot of his college games and have been rewatching them.  He struck me as a boom bust prospect.  As for why I think that I already hit many of those points on this thread.   What I love is his strong arm, quick release (Finlay I heard recently criticize it as longish -- I don't agree) and accuracy.  Ironically, I recall saying on that draft thread that among the QB's I watched, Haskins has the best wow type highlights.  You can find some beauty throws in some games.  My concern about him is what happened when he didn't have a clean pocket. 

 

And I think I was fooled on that front for awhile early in the draft process because Bucky Brooks who adores Haskins as much as Reddick does -- would show highlights of Haskins making throws on the move and when things broke down.  And yeah Haskins has his moments and will make some highlights like that.  Heck he even has some nice scrambles where he looks really mobile.  But when you watch game after game and play after play -- you see on the aggregate that pressure (especially up the middle) really effects his accuracy in a pronounced way. And when he moves laterally in the pocket and throws on the move his accuracy is sketchy.  So my fear was in the NFL, you don't have a clean pocket a heck of a lot.  So these situations which were more the exception in college -- will more likely become the rule in the NFL.  So in short, he will have to adjust to these situations.

 

Now listening intently to all the reports from camp.  The impression i am getting is my take on Haskins' college tape is pretty much dead on.  His highs are similar to what I mentioned.  His weaknesses look to be the same.  Not that my take was ground breaking -- plenty have said the same.

 

My point is I am actually more optimistic about Haskins based on what am hearing for one reason:  work ethic.  I've quoted Bruce Arian's book about QB's a lot on the draft thread.  And his #1 thing about QBs above everything else is work ethic.  He goes its the hardest position in the world to master and to prepare for week to week during the season -- and your work ethic has to be extraordinary to be excellent.  Haskins seems to have that trait in spades.

 

For example listening to the clip posted here from Reddick, he talks about Haskins struggling to throw on the move.    And he says Haskins knows it and is working on it.  I love that.  I am not in the camp that Haskins is some sure fire slam dunk stud.    Mahomes to me for example is a freak.  He can move in the pocket, throw from weird arm angles and might have the strongest arm in the league outside of Josh Allen.  Haskins to me isn't mega talented like that.  Though I do understand the analogies on the thread to Mahomes since he was talented as a rookie in camp but he needed to hone his tools and adjust to the offense, etc.

 

Haskins to me does have the arm, build, accuracy to be more like a Rivers or Brady traditionally passer.   i like what I've heard so far.  I am not at the point where i think hey we finally found our franchise QB.   As much as I like what I've heard, I can't let go that he can still be a bust, yet.  Maybe the cynicism is bred in me with all our young previous QBs who have showed "promise" and most of whom were well regarded also by the draft geeks at the time.  I was thinking 50-50 boom bust more or less when we took him.  I think now am at about 65%-35% boom to bust ratio.  I'll be at camp for 3 days in July -- can't wait to see it play out.   

[HTTRDynasty]

3 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

To whoever was downplaying footwork in relation to arm talent in here: 

 

 

 

Mahomes is smart to call this out and make it his key focus this offseason.  I was just watching last year's Chiefs vs Seahawks game the other night (below), and it was apparent that Mahomes still has a lot to work on in regards to his accuracy the pocket.  He was inaccurate there pretty much the whole game, though he made some incredibly accurate and jaw-dropping throws when on the move, especially in the 4th quarter.  But he bails out of the pocket too fast, and too frequently.  With better footwork and timing in the pocket, he wouldn't need to extend as many plays. Teams that limited him last season were those that controlled the edges of the pocket, so it's good to know he improving this aspect of his game.

 

Anyway, this game was a fun watch.  It reminded me how disgustingly accurate Russell Wilson is - in the pocket and on the move.  He throws such a beautiful ball.  I sometimes imagine how much success we could've had as a franchise this decade if we had drafted Kuechly or Cox in round 1 of the 2012 draft and Wilson in round 2.  What could've been...

 

 

[volsmet]

On 6/13/2019 at 7:31 AM, redskinss said:

 

 

You feel better?

 

 

 

Only if you’re now literate, otherwise I fear running into the same issues we had previously. 

[volsmet]

On 6/14/2019 at 9:38 AM, mistertim said:

Someone mentioned it above, and it's a bit of a worry for me. I'm still concerned that Dan will try to pressure Jay into starting Haskins. 

 

Pretty much every reporter at the minicamps has said that while he has some moments where his talent really shines through, on the whole he's definitely not been better than Keenum. Which of course is fine and not surprising in the least at this stage.

 

I don't want the coaches to be forced into a situation that could be very detrimental to the young QB's development. 

 

If Keenum was the QB at OSU in *2018 the Buckeyes would have set every offensive record in college football history. Keenum is better at Football than Dwayne, it’s not close. Haskins is more talented than Case, it’s not close. 

 

Work & time allow the former to eclipse the latter; more patience is the cure to Redskinitis, as you are aware.

 

22 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Gruden's specific comments on Haskins "swinginess", the massive highs and puzzling lows he has due to mechanics etc., are startlingly like things I read about Mahomes as a rookie. 

 

People think DH has better mechanics than he does because they don’t know what mechanics are. DH missed more guys by 5 yards+ than any legitimate nfl prospect... he also had an incredible completion % .. the issue is reps, which create the fluidity of your mechanics.

[volsmet]

6 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

To whoever was downplaying footwork in relation to arm talent in here: 

 

 

 

🙏

[TSO]

I don't know why I'm just posting this now, but I figure what the heck. Some time within the first week of May I started to watch the 2018 Ohio State season chronologically. I haven't been as involved in anything football-related as I normally am this past year, so I came to it knowing next to nothing about what went down or how Haskins is perceived, which I think really gave me as unbiased an eye as I've ever had watching a player. 

 

The following are the bits and pieces of a private discussion I had starting around May 11th and ending on May 15th regarding what I saw as I went through it... yeah, I know, why didn't I just post it then and why now? Not sure, really, but I think it might be interesting for anyone who wants to see how it looks from the perspective of someone going through the season as if he's "in the moment" and without much of any outside noise prejudicing the observations. I also started doing a comparison with Daniel Jones shortly after which I thought might interest some of you:

 

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I’m almost done watching the entire Ohio State season. It started out pretty good with Haskins going off, albeit against some weaker teams and a lot of YAC plays. Still, he was their offense. 

 

But then he hit a big time lull starting with Penn State. It’s like 6 games straight of just meh. Ohio State struggled to run the ball well and defenses just really focused on stopping him, and he couldn’t make anything really happen. They’d win off of good defense and whenever their running game would actually help, but he just wasn’t THAT GUY. 

 

Their receivers weren’t getting open though and their route concepts were pretty simple, so it could be more about that than it was him. 

 

But it’s actually been really disappointing to watch. I’m in the middle of the Maryland game now and it’s a lot of the same, though he finally hit a big play with McLaurin after seemingly forever. His accuracy on anything outside of 10 yards was spotty at best, too. 

 

I’m hoping it gets better from here, but yeah... when you watch it chronologically you can see this really long, ugly, lull in his play. I keep hoping it gets better with every game but it hasn’t. He rarely makes a play when pressured and he’s not evasive in the pocket at all. Just very disappointing. 

 

I’m going to be devastated if it doesn’t improve, lol. My assumption this entire time has been, “this can’t be it”. 

 

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Yeah I haven’t looked much at what others are saying, that’s totally my opinion alone. As of where I’m at right now in his season, I’m a bit confused as to why he was so heralded out of college. Just not seeing it. He’s really, really raw actually. 

  

 But I’m just at the Maryland game so he could change my mind. He’s got a bunch of big games coming up. You guys know I haven’t been too into football lately so I’m actually coming at this with as little outside noise and prejudice as possible. It’s pretty refreshing actually. I don’t know what really happened in any of these games so I’m pretty “in the moment”, and it helps with recognizing not just what he did but when he did it. How big he came up in big moments. 

  

 Thus far, he’s been pretty average in those kind of moments. Their defense really has kept them in games and he’s benefited from that. He’s done it once or twice, but more often than not he hasn’t been able to single-handedly lead his team back into a game they were down in. It’s either been the running game finally getting going or the defense. 

  

 You definitely see the arm talent and his accuracy can be really good at times, but it’s inconsistent and I do think his completion percentage doesn’t tell the complete story because so much of their offense was within 5-10 yards of the LOS. His ball placement though on some of those slants and drag routes was impeccable, so that’s exciting. 

  

 But, yeah... I’m hoping right now I see some growth happen in the big games coming up. And, of course, there’s always the possibility he’s done a lot in terms of fixing his issues during the pre-draft process. He might look very different come TC. 

  

 So that’s where I’m at. 

 

A day later: 

 

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Btw, I just finished the Maryland game. Wow, that was actually a fun game to watch, especially that 2nd half. 

 

Dwayne was a mixed bag, really, but I’m happy to finally see something truly noteworthy. That’s what I was waiting for. He made some big throws in key moments. 

 

Honestly, there isn’t much about him that amazes... but one thing that does for me are his throws on out routes outside the numbers. Sometimes the ball is even placed at the LOS on the opposite hash marks and he still manages to get the ball out there with relative ease and accurately, which is impressive considering how far that can be in college with the wider hash marks. It is a thing of beauty. 

 

I felt the way about him well before the MD game, but you could see they started having success in the passing game against Maryland when they started attacking them outside the numbers. 

 

But, yeah, I like that I finally watched a game where he had to lead a comeback to some degree. It definitely wasn’t all him, but he played a big enough role unlike the past 5-6 games I’ve watched. 

 

On to the huge Michigan game for [a chance at] the Big 10! 

 

A few days later: 

 

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Btw, I finished watching Haskins against Maryland, Michigan, Northwestern and the Rose Bowl against Washington. 

 

I have to say, I’m pretty pleased at the growth he showed. I think it’s funny I wrote to you guys after only having watched up to the 1st half of the MD game... because after that he really looked different. 

 

There were many times where he was actually decisive within the pocket and slid left or right, or stepped up nicely, reset and threw a dime. He simply wasn’t doing that before. 

 

I get why people say his game against Michigan is overrated since a lot of it was about YAC and those short crossing routes, but I don’t care. That was as high pressure as it gets and he was calm and accurate. Even the easiest of throws become hard in those situations. A lot of that YAC came as a result of timing and precision, it wasn’t just guys breaking tackles for him and making plays on their own. He also was doing a good job with his feet on a lot of those plays, because he’d start off looking the opposite way to fool Michigan and then come back to the other side and hit the receiver in stride. 

 

But his best game, in my opinion, was against Northwestern. Some of his movement within the pocket in that game had me absolutely giddy. It was really special. If that’s the guy we’re getting? Man, look out. 

 

Rose Bowl was a bit meh. They played a lot of zone and he was effective in the first half at beating it, but then he reverted to “pre-2nd half against Maryland Haskins”, lol. Lot of interior pressure he had no answer for. Part of me thinks that the team just let off the gas a little bit and he followed suit, so hopefully it was just that. 

 

So that’s my final grade on him. There is “pre-2nd half against MD Haskins” who is definitely not worthy of a first round pick and there is the Haskins after that who is. 

 

The good news is that there is a clear indication of development and growth here. Were it the other way around I’d be devastated. I was devastated all the way through that first half against MD. Just thought that most of his stats were inflated and that he didn’t do much outside of a few really pretty throws to show he’s a must have pick in the 1st. But he changed my mind after that. His footwork was vastly improved and he looked dynamic in the pocket. 

 

I could see why Jay or Kyle were against picking a QB in the 1st. Don’t blame them at all. But I can also see why they were happy they didn’t trade up and got him at 15, that they still got Sweat in the end, and it wasn’t just Haskins in the 1st. 

 

I was leaning towards an 80/20 bust-boom percentage with Haskins when I first talked to you guys. Now? I’m not totally flipped but I’m more like 50/50. Which is worthy of a mid-first round pick. 

 

I hope we get that Haskins I saw those last few games and a half. There is the real possibility that it was just comfort in a simplistic offense that made him look like that in the end and that the NFL will be too fast, too difficult for him to ever get that comfortable in processing things while maneuvering in the pocket, but there is also the possibility it was real and that it was just a taste of what he can become in the NFL. 

 

I like what Jay said about throwing everything at him and that if it takes him a while to grasp it they’ll just move on to Case/Colt getting majority of reps, but if not he’ll be right in the mix.

 

That’s a sound plan. 

 

That gives Haskins the motivation to learn since he’s got a shot to start while also removing the pressure of being forced into a situation where he’s not ready and looks bad. 

 

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I’m going to study Daniel Jones next  to really see what the difference is as best I can. Going to be fascinating. Like I said, I really have zero preconceived notions going into this. Or at least more so than any other year. Only thing I know about Jones is that everyone is making fun of the Giants for taking him, lol.  

 

Following day: 

 

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I’ve watched so far Army, Northwestern, VT, and am into the Georgia Tech game (he missed two games in between Northwestern and VT due to a broken collarbone). 

 

[Jones's] very good with interior pressure. He’s got real toughness in the pocket so he’ll stand in there with a lot of bodies near him, but he’s also quick with his feet and can evade smoothly. He’s got nice touch on his deep throws, even with pressure right in his face, but his guys let him down a lot and don’t make the catch. To me, he’s just very polished. That Oline isn’t very good and he’s basically had a lot of reps dealing with an unclean pocket, which is what the NFL is all about. Reminds me a bit of Matt Ryan physically. 

 

Those are the things he’s clearly better than Haskins at from what I’ve seen so far. He’s got good enough arm strength, but nothing to write home about. Haskins can get the ball out further, quicker than he can for sure. Just no comparison on those out routes outside the numbers from the other side of the hash like I mentioned before. Haskins makes you say “wow” on those. But, yeah, he’s no slouch and his arm is definitely NFL worthy. 

 

The major negatives so far? A lot of the plays are one read and you don’t see him moving people with his eyes a lot, which Haskins did aplenty. He’s not as good as Haskins in terms of ball placement on short routes, which limits YAC. He’s absolutely AWFUL with edge pressure. I mean, just AWFUL. Just has no sense of it and, thus, he’s an easy strip sack. Which is where Haskins excelled in terms of pocket presence. 

 

It’s kind of funny. They’re opposites in quite a few areas. I mean, overall they’re traditional pocket passers, but the subtle differences are polarizing. If you combined them you’d have the perfect QB. 

 

One can handle interior pressure well, one can’t. Same guy who can handle interior pressure sucks with edge pressure, other guy who isn’t good with interior pressure is great with edge pressure. One can throw a beautiful deep ball with air under it (Jones), the other is more of a straight line deep thrower who will put too much on it or too little (Haskins). Etc...

 

He's really tough and fearless. Haskins is a bit soft and goes down easier, though he improved on that as the season went on. 

 

I don’t think Haskins was strip sacked even once, at least I don’t remember. He has that uncanny feel for when someone is approaching his side. I’ve already seen it happen to Jones like 4 times! If only Haskins didn’t totally panic when he sees the rush up the middle, lol. 

 

Goes back to what I always talk about in terms of roster construction and how important the synergy is. If I’m the Giants I’m investing like crazy in getting top tier tackles to block the edges, whereas if I’m the Skins I’d place a premium on Center and Guard. It’s fascinating, really. 

 

If Jones can gain that sixth sense good QBs always have where they just feel the edge pressure, I think he can be real quality in the NFL. His ceiling is Wentz (well, 2017 Wentz). 

 

I’m glad Haskins already has that sense. That’s a big deal. It might actually be a deal breaker for Jones. He’s basically quicker, and therefore better, than Haskins when he can see the rush because of his footwork and toughness. Haskins, on the other hand, just panics and doesn’t react quickly when he sees it, but he can feel what Jones can’t and if he has somewhere to step up or slide to he can get away from it or at least avoid them enough to where they don’t strip him. 

 

I feel like Haskins has the easier road in terms of development. He just needs to work on his feet and resetting quickly once he avoids pressure up the middle. Jones has to develop that sixth sense that is almost impossible to drill. 

 

But I might be being unfair to Jones, I haven’t seen if he improved throughout the course of the season like Haskins did. He just seems so polished already it’s hard to envision he changed much. 

 

In response to being told about Jones's poor accuracy stats in throws that are 10+: 

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That’s interesting to me because I do feel like his deep ball is very nice. Of course, I’m just a few games in so maybe that changes. The stats might indicate that because his guys screwed him out of a lot of plays deep. There’s already like 5 or 6 of them that would’ve boosted his stats, and if you flip his WRs with what Haskins had in guys like KJ Hill, Parris Campbell and McClaurin... I think it’s a different story. 

 

I just liked the air he gets under it. 

 

But yeah, his ball placement isn’t anywhere near Haskins on short stuff. There isn’t a ton that I recall from either of them in terms of intermediate stuff, so I won’t dispute the stats there. 

 

In response to being told about the complaints regarding Jones during the Senior Bowl with fumbles lost as well as his propensity for sacks and INTs in general: 

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Lol, I didn’t know that. So it sounds like he didn’t improve much there if it happened in the Senior Bowl.

 

Wow, he honestly might bust on that alone. I was stunned at just how bad he is with edge pressure. He has ZERO feel of it. It’s really bad, lol. If he doesn’t see the pressure, it’s over, and his peripheral vision isn’t that great so it happens often. 

 

Thus far his INTs aren’t that bad for the most part. He had a tipped ball that turned into one and the other one wasn’t egregious if I’m recalling correctly. He did get a lot of pressure in his face right away as his Oline wasn’t good at all in the games I’ve watched, so that might be why he’s got so many INTs even with a low YPA. 

 

In response to bringing Haskins back into the conversation again:

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Yeah, man, like I said I was depressed watching those games in the middle of their season. Basically  from Penn State all the way to Maryland... I was losing my mind.  

 

His first few games were good, but he was operating from a super clean pocket almost the entire time and most of the plays were about YAC. Still, it was good to see. 

 

But then Penn State happened. And it was just this terrible lull after that. I honestly panicked, lol. I found very little to nothing to suggest he was even remotely worth a first round pick. It was like the teams figured Haskins and their offense out and they had NO answer. 

 

Then the MD game happened and I saw him make plays I hadn’t seen him make. He was operating in the pocket much more smoothly and he was throwing dimes. Then he followed it with a big time performance in a huge game against Michigan who was playing great D at the time. To me, the situation there is really important to contextualize. That’s as high pressure as it gets and he was as calm and efficient as anything. 

 

Then the Northwestern game is where I officially felt good about him being a first round prospect. He looked like Brady in the pocket at times in that game, I swear. That, I don’t know how to say it, hop stepping after the drop back that just exudes confidence. I loved it. 

 

He and that offense really hit their stride when it mattered most. That’s important, too. He really grew. 

 

So I’m pleased for now. 2nd half of the Rose Bowl game kind of brought back those depressing vibes of that lull from Penn State through Michigan State... but I hope it was more about them letting off the gas than anything else. 

 

I know the scores during what I call the “lull” seem to indicate he did fine, but I just wasn’t impressed with what he did overall during those games. It was more the defense or running game coming through. Or just the opposing team’s lack of talent eventually giving in as they hit the 4th quarter. 

 

It’s like Haskins has three versions of himself during the season.

 

You’ve got the green, raw talent that helms an explosive offense with speedy weapons at WR and a very clean pocket for him to distribute to them (Oregon State, Rutgers, TCU, Tulane). This version is more of a very good point guard operating a simple offense than anything else. 

 

Then you got the guy who gets figured out a bit, flashes (rarely) but can’t handle the pressure up the middle at all, and loses a lot of the accuracy that made him good previously (Penn State, Indiana, Minnesota, Purdue, Nebraska, Michigan State).

 

Then, finally, you have the guy who grows in confidence, operates better in the pocket, starts showcasing his arm talent consistently again, and is as cool as can be in the biggest moments (2nd half Maryland, Michigan, Northwestern, Washington). I don't think there was a better player in college football during this time. He was simply on fire. 

 

So that’s what gets me excited about him. How much of it was his growth or was it more about Ohio State’s offense starting to click and he was a beneficiary... I think those things can be debated. But I’m pretty confident I saw him improve. There was something different about his pocket movement. Maybe the fact that they had him running the ball more just made him more comfortable with contact and, thus, he wasn’t as susceptible to panicking. I don’t know, but something changed. 

 

In response to Jones's ability to make plays on the move: 

Quote

Oh, I’m glad you pointed this out. I forgot to talk about throws on the move. You’re absolutely right, he does throw well on the move. That is something he’s clearly better than Haskins at. 

 

That was one of the key differences I saw in Haskins. The first two “versions” of Haskins, he was horrid throwing on the move. Totally inaccurate and just in general he was panicking versus looking down field. 

 

But the third version of Haskins? He actually had a few beautiful throws outside the pocket on the move in big moments. He simply hadn’t done that before. 

 

So there are things to be excited about in terms of trajectory with Haskins. There was some real growth in his game. He added things to his arsenal. If that continues, we just might have the guy for once! Can’t believe I’m even saying that. 

 

 

So that's that. Hope someone enjoyed this chronicle and there aren't too many of you rolling your eyes at me for posting all this now and seemingly out of nowhere.    

 

Oh, and I do want to point out that I never finished Daniel Jones's season. I stopped there because it looked like, from what the person I was discussing all this with said, he still was largely the same guy in the Senior Bowl that I saw after the first 4 games he started in (as mentioned above, he missed two games early on). Nonetheless, my point does stand that it might be an unfair evaluation of Jones. Either way, I'm pretty excited about Haskins as a prospect. The issues people talk about are all there, and that's why he fell to 15... but what I'm excited about is that not only are they correctable, but he actually improved upon them during the season and in the biggest moments at that. That's really my biggest takeaway.   

[redskinss]

4 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

Only if you’re now literate, otherwise I fear running into the same issues we had previously. 

You are an arrogant one aren't ya.

 

I wanted to drop it but since you want to make it personal we can throw down.

 

You swore up and down that the article wasn't about last year but it very clearly was, as it referred to 2019 rankings and mentioned that scherff missed half the season but at this point that's neither here nor there.

 

You really think your **** dont stink but I know the truth, you have so little confidence in yourself that you need  to insult other people with your ridiculous memes, gifs and Dennis miller wannabe quips non stop to make yourself feel intelligent. 

 

If that's what you need to make yourself feel good then I truly feel sorry for you.

 

 

 

 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

You are an arrogant one aren't ya.

 

I wanted to drop it but since you want to make it personal we can throw down.

 

You swore up and down that the article wasn't about last year but it very clearly was, as it referred to 2019 rankings and mentioned that scherff missed half the season but at this point that's neither here nor there.

 

You really think your **** dont stink but I know the truth, you have so little confidence in yourself that you need  to insult other people with your ridiculous memes, gifs and Dennis miller wannabe quips non stop to make yourself feel intelligent. 

 

If that's what you need to make yourself feel good then I truly feel sorry for you.

 

 

 

To be fair to @volsmet, he does use Poo-Pourri so technically his **** really doesn't stink.

[RandyHolt]

On 6/15/2019 at 10:52 AM, ConnSKINS26 said:

To whoever was downplaying footwork in relation to arm talent in here: 

 

 

 

Easy answer for him.... say whatever Tom Brady would say. 

 

Let's not overlook he destroyed teams last year with improper footwork.  DESTROYED THEM. Took the league by storm.  5000 yards 50 TDs.... good luck topping those numbers by twerking his feet. Everyone wants Mahomes and his shoddy footwork.

 

There is something to be said about getting rid of the damn ball, at the risk of heaven forbid ignoring Tom Brady's pocket passing guidelines.  Brady and his paltry 29 TDs. Pfft.  Defenses are SO aggressive now, QBs are foolish to blindly focus on proper mechanics with every throw. They have to survive first and foremost, and its done by (the heavily undervalued) improvising.  At the root of that, is knowing the exact moment of when to improvise. Too soon - benched. Too late - triple surgery.

 

Remember this post, if Mahomes stops improvising to properly position his feet on a pass, and gets his clock cleaned.

 

To whoever downplays the importance of a QB being able to improvise and throw on the run, yes not setting your feet, re-watch Mahomes's's'z highlights from last year.  Maybe watch a sack compilation of pocket passers getting clobbered/stripped/injured using proper mechanics, say behind a porous OL. Talk about ruining a young QB.... always set your feeee.... Oh **** WATCH OUT FOR MIKE UNBLOCKED NO DANNY NO FML.

 

Perhaps at the root of QBs failing is the fine line they need to walk between always maintaining proper mechanics they are told is the highest priority, and the inevitable improvising / surviving. The young QB buys in the what the OC is selling yet the OL can't block for **** through a goose. They spend their summer working on their footwork, only to get punched in the mouth in week 1.

 

Yeah I concede this guy didn't set his feet before the throw.

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

On 6/15/2019 at 6:04 PM, thesubmittedone said:

Those are the things he’s clearly better than Haskins at from what I’ve seen so far. He’s got good enough arm strength, but nothing to write home about. Haskins can get the ball out further, quicker than he can for sure. Just no comparison on those out routes outside the numbers from the other side of the hash like I mentioned before. Haskins makes you say “wow” on those. But, yeah, he’s no slouch and his arm is definitely NFL worthy.

 

My biggest criticism and argument against Daniel Jones deals with his Out routes.  I don't think he's got an NFL caliber arm and can hit those.  I think he's a bit like Colt McCoy in that his offense will need to be tailored over the middle of the field a bit more and less along the sideline.  His ceiling for total potential, is far below someone like Aaron Rodgers who can spend an entire game carving up defenses along the sideline.

 

There were too many plays I saw with Jones where his throw on an Out route was almost picked at the college level.  Take that to the NFL, and some of those are going to be Pick 6's. I think his arm strength is better than Colt, but worse than Kirk Cousins.  I don't think he's got a "make-all-the-throws" NFL caliber arm.  That's not to say he can't still be a pretty good QB.  His size, athleticism, and toughness are all good to great.  He's a touch pass thrower, and some pretty good quarterbacks (Phillip Rivers, aging-but-still-good Peyton) have had success with mostly touch passes.

 

I think his odds for bust/success are not in his favor.  We all know environment in the NFL matters for development.  But if the right personnel, scheme, etc gets put around him, it'll flip the odds back in his favor.  I just don't know how easy or hard it'll be to get that. 

 

On 6/15/2019 at 6:04 PM, thesubmittedone said:

Goes back to what I always talk about in terms of roster construction and how important the synergy is. If I’m the Giants I’m investing like crazy in getting top tier tackles to block the edges, whereas if I’m the Skins I’d place a premium on Center and Guard. It’s fascinating, really. 

 

I take you think pre-season priority #1 for the team is re-sign Scherff?  If you had the choice for letting Scherff contract stuff wait until after the season and giving Trent some more money to make him happy (if that'll do it), ...or extending Scherff now and then trading Trent.  Which would it be?

[DJHJR86]

10 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

I think his odds for bust/success are not in his favor.  We all know environment in the NFL matters for development.  But if the right personnel, scheme, etc gets put around him, it'll flip the odds back in his favor.  I just don't know how easy or hard it'll be to get that. 

 

About a month or so ago, Cooley said the complete opposite on Kevin Sheehan's podcast.  He said that Haskins' ceiling was much higher than Jones, but the potential floor/bust potential was greater for Haskins than Jones.  

[Anselmheifer]

Daniel Jones has never been good. He was a zero star recruit that wasn’t even initially offered a scholarship at Duke. At Duke, he wasn’t good. Never averaged 7.0 YPA and never had 3000 yards. Now he’s suddenly going to be good at the highest level? Nope.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

4 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

About a month or so ago, Cooley said the complete opposite on Kevin Sheehan's podcast.  He said that Haskins' ceiling was much higher than Jones, but the potential floor/bust potential was greater for Haskins than Jones.  

 

That's sort of what I'm, saying.  Haskins has serious potential,  Jones will never be an Elite QB that makes unbelievable throws despite amazing defense.  I think, based on potential, the two QB's are not on the same tier.  That doesn't mean Jones won't end up being better when all is said and done.

 

Where I'd differ from Cooley (obviously his opinion is worth more than mine), is the bust potential.  I think Jones meh arm, will make it damned hard for his playbook/scheme to feature sideline stuff.  Better coached defenses will key in on that and slow down their offense.

[Skinsinparadise]

I'd love to go to NY to see Daniel Jones play against the Redskins in week 4.  I suspect though Eli will still be starting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

As for Daniel Jones, I dissected him probably enough in the draft thread.  For me i wouldn't be surprised if he ends up a serviceable starter in the mode of a Case Keenum type.  But I'd be stunned if he ends up franchise material.

 

I don't think he has bad arm strength.  I think its average.   His strength is short yardage-quick game.  And he's athletic for his size so they can run some RO with him.  He strikes me like a poor man's Alex Smith.  He's tougher in the pocket than Alex IMO.  But Alex's forte is avoiding turnovers.  Daniel Jones is a turnover guy -- fumbles, tipped balls, interceptions and he takes a lot of sacks.   Jones' accuracy statistically speaking was atrocious beyond 10 yards in college.  And he has the rep (like Alex) for being gun shy for throwing into tight windows. 

 

I'd take Haskins over Jones albeit both have IMO some bust potential.   I can see though the argument of Jones being more pro ready considering how many more starts he has over Haskins and he is likely IMO better right now at dealing with pressure.  Jones is used to playing under adversarial conditions and being under siege.  Haskins nowhere as much.   Haskins though has a rocket of an arm, and can make throws all around the field (including intermediate and long) that Jones IMO isn't capable of.   Haskins to me has much more upside.

 

[XxSpearheadxX]

I agree with what anjelica and her sweater puppies said about Jones being booed.