FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Burgundy Yoda]

13 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Just posting this to show his maturity:

 

 

Racism is an uncomfortable topic. We don't know, Haskins could have had an awful experience with it that he would rather forget, which could make it harder for him to talk about it. You have to respect everyone's privacy, he doesn't have to say anything. 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

18 hours ago, joeken24 said:

I am not completely buying Zampese. But I will say that I do think Haskins improves. And Tim Tebow can't put a candle up to Haskins so I don't agree with mention. Haskins admitted to being a jacked up throughout all last year for the most part. And why not? You're playing with no confidence, no reputable, creative offense to speak of and no line. It was a mess all around. So Zampese comes in and works with Haskins. But I don't think it will be about Haskin's throwing motion. I think it will be more about his footwork which a lot of QB have to work on constantly. Particularly QBs with strong arms. Hopefully they are a match made in heaven and we end up with our first definitive franchise QB in recent history.

 

The Tebow reference was specific to the Lions game. And it was accurate. Like Tebow Dwayne absolutely sucked for 57 minutes, missing the easiest TD pass ever by yards. Then he pulled out a win with 2 late field goals (not TDs like Tebow) and only as a result of a great catch by Terry and a turnover by the defense.    

8 hours ago, MartinC said:

NFL Gamepass is free right now. All 22 shows a lot you don’t see on the broadcast. 

From the period he was named starter to the end of the season Haskins was the 10th rated QB in the league as per PFF. That’s a small sample size and ratings can be subjective - but if you can’t see progress game to game from Haskins in those starts I don’t know what to tell you.

 

Progress from that base is still unknown of course.

 

Another example of the bizarre ratings PFF tends to produce.  So this ranking takes on his entire body of work from the moment he took the field as a starter?  You saw those games, can you honestly say he looked like the 10th best QB in the league when all his games are included and not just the last few?  

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

The Tebow reference was specific to the Lions game. And it was accurate. Like Tebow Dwayne absolutely sucked for 57 minutes, missing the easiest TD pass ever by yards. Then he pulled out a win with 2 late field goals (not TDs like Tebow) and only as a result of a great catch by Terry and a turnover by the defense.    

 

Another example of the bizarre ratings PFF tends to produce.  So this ranking takes on his entire body of work from the moment he took the field as a starter?  You saw those games, can you honestly say he looked like the 10th best QB in the league when all his games are included and not just the last few?  

 

Remember, what @MartinCsaid was "From the period he was named starter" so that wouldn't include his miserable performances against the Giants and the Vikings. 

 

To be honest, I tend to kinda throw those out the window as well. He was thrown in there with zero game plan for him and zero preparation by a coach who was pretty much uninterested in him and likely didn't want him to begin with and probably knew he was close to being fired. 

[HTTRDynasty]

3 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

  Another example of the bizarre ratings PFF tends to produce.  So this ranking takes on his entire body of work from the moment he took the field as a starter?  You saw those games, can you honestly say he looked like the 10th best QB in the league when all his games are included and not just the last few?  

 

Did you watch every other game from every other QB from weeks 9-17?  Because PFF did.

[HTTRDynasty]

On 6/3/2020 at 6:19 AM, Darrell Green Fan said:

But you just can't succeed if your QB does not hit what he is throwing at, this was always the concern with Dwayne and nothing has changed my mind. 

 

[MartinC]

4 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

Another example of the bizarre ratings PFF tends to produce.  So this ranking takes on his entire body of work from the moment he took the field as a starter?  You saw those games, can you honestly say he looked like the 10th best QB in the league when all his games are included and not just the last few?  

 

He got better each start. Go watch his games against the Eagles and Giants - he looked absolutely like a top 10 QB. Can that be sustained over a larger sample and improved on? Don't know - but he has the tools for that to happen.

[mistertim]

41 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

He got better each start. Go watch his games against the Eagles and Giants - he looked absolutely like a top 10 QB. Can that be sustained over a larger sample and improved on? Don't know - but he has the tools for that to happen.

 

After watching those games again I definitely liked most of what I saw...good decision making, good accuracy, looked confident. But man, I really hope the stories about him working on his footwork this offseason are true. It was just atrocious at times, even in his really good games to end the season. I think the biggest problem was inconsistency. On one play he'd look smooth in his drop, on the balls of his feet, and set them well before throwing, and then on the next one his drop would be clunky, flat footed, and lead to stray passes. He could get away with it in college because of his superior arm talent but he's gonna have to clean it up in the NFL. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

40 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

He got better each start. Go watch his games against the Eagles and Giants - he looked absolutely like a top 10 QB. Can that be sustained over a larger sample and improved on? Don't know - but he has the tools for that to happen.

And he was doing it with a subpar cast and turmoil.  The HC wanted to run the ball 70% of the time, and then on the remaining 30%, he wanted to run some more.  KOC got a lot of accolades, but he was a first year OC who nobody picked up as an OC after it was clear he wasn't coming back.  The OL was a bit of a mess because of injuries and the Trent hold-out, and the skill positions were basically Terry and the who's?  (With Sims coming on late).  

 

I don't know if I would go full "like a top 10 QB" but he definitely played as well as a legitimate starting QB in the NFL over about 6 quarters.  Which is a really positive sign.  We have no idea where it will lead, but it's positive.

 

I keep coming back to this: Dwayne was drafted into possibly the worst situation of any QB ... ever?  The coach was in a "win now" mode and wanted to play Colt, and if not Colt, Keenum because he's a vet.  The owner picked him ostensibly over the advice of the "football people." There was an immediate feeling that Dan was going to ruin Dwayne because he made the pick.  The President was a scum sucking bottom dweller who never spent money improving the team and got into a tug-of-war with one of the best LTs in the league.  Going into the season, the team thought Trey Quinn was a legitimate starting WR in the slot.  (They were wrong. Just like they were wrong thinking Ryan Grant was a legitimate starting WR, and Rob Kelly was a legitimate running back, and the list goes on.)  

 

This is nothing to say that the team knew they had a terrible defensive coordinator, tried to replace him, and failed.  So, they were stuck with a terrible defensive coordinator.  Who ended up as the defensive quality control coach of the Kentucky Wildcats.  That's true.  Look it up.  I can't think of a farther fall, except for "out of work" for any coach in NFL history. 

 

Going into last year, the team was in disaray.  They were poorly put together, lacked talent, and insanely poorly coached. 

 

And that's what Dwayne walked into.   Or was thrust into.  And, as an immature young adult, he probably pouted a bit and didn't do all the things he needed to do himself.  

 

But in the end, he was able to learn enough under those scenarios to put together 6 good quarters of football. 

 

This year, the cast of characters is probably a little more talented than last year, however they should be extremely well coached and prepared.  Which should help a lot.  I also think Scott Turner can make the game easy for Dwayne early by utilizing a bunch of routs to RBs, similar to what they ran in Carolina. We have a whole bunch of versatile guys in the backfield, and they can construct and offense where they can run the ball, run a lot of short passes to RBs, and then take deep shots occasionally, and honestly, they can probably be somewhat successful doing that.

 

I'm rooting for Dwayne.  I have no idea if it's going to work out or not, but I would like it to.  

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

After watching those games again I definitely liked most of what I saw...good decision making, good accuracy, looked confident. But man, I really hope the stories about him working on his footwork this offseason are true. It was just atrocious at times, even in his really good games to end the season. I think the biggest problem was inconsistency. On one play he'd look smooth in his drop, on the balls of his feet, and set them well before throwing, and then on the next one his drop would be clunky, flat footed, and lead to stray passes. He could get away with it in college because of his superior arm talent but he's gonna have to clean it up in the NFL. 

 

Totally agree on his footwork and mechanics. He was very inconsistent - being able to throw off platform and with different arm angles is great when you need to but too often he did it when he didn't need to. Again I think he got better as the year went on, certainly in respect of his feet and his eyes being in synch. But 100% things he needs to clean up and get more consistet with in terms of footwork and throwing mechanics. 

 

One thing I'd love to see him do is get his elbow higher in delivery - he has a low elbow and I think thats what leads to some of his misses high, But changing throwing motion is a non trivial thing.

59 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

I don't know if I would go full "like a top 10 QB" but he definitely played as well as a legitimate starting QB in the NFL over about 6 quarters.  Which is a really positive sign.  We have no idea where it will lead, but it's positive.

 

He rated top 5 over his last two starts. Only 6 quarters but still encouraging.

[Darrell Green Fan]

As I said I would be thrilled to be wrong. And you guys make a good case from a fan's perspective, there was growth but again we are talking a very small sample size of good play and the NFL road is littered with QBs who played well for a short period of time.  There is hope, he has the tools and certainly better coaching.  Just saying the odds are against it given the miss rate on drafted QBs overall and this was not a highly rated QB to begin with.  

[evmiii]

I am optimistic because he has shown throughout his short career that his play continues to improve the more he plays.  He visibly got better every Saturday he played in college.  He was a much better QB in week six than he was in week one and in week twelve than he was in week six.  Once he became the starter in Washington  his play continued to get better.  He still has less than twenty starts so he has a target rich environment for improvement but he seems to be doing the right things and preparing himself for his continued success.  I remain optimistic that he will be the man.

[joeken24]

I hit myself for getting caught in a conversation about Tim Tebow and Baker Mayfield. They both sucked as QBs. Haskins was a rookie making throws and plays like a rookie. If he sucks this year and the next, he'll catch up to the two QBs I just talk about. But he's not there yet so why put him there?

On 6/3/2020 at 1:03 PM, HTTRDynasty said:

 

That tweet in the first article is wrong.  As for the 2nd site, completion percentage does not = accuracy.

 

Mayfield ranked 6th in overall accuracy % in 2018, per PFF.  He ranked 4th in their Accuracy+ metric, which identifies perfect throws that allow a receiver to get the maximum YAC.

 

Stop it bro. He may have been ranked for tight window throws but that's about it. Mayfield sucks. Why are we on a Redskins thread talking about a bum?

[Riggo#44]

9 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

Stop it bro. He may have been ranked for tight window throws but that's about it. Mayfield sucks. Why are we on a Redskins thread talking about a bum?

 

Because the only time he's looked good is under Ken Zampese's tutelage.

[joeken24]

5 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Because the only time he's looked good is under Ken Zampese's tutelage.

I guess. But again, Zampese was out the league for a reason. But I'll give Ron and crew the benefit of the doubt. Hope Z and Haskins ball out.

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, joeken24 said:

I guess. But again, Zampese was out the league for a reason. But I'll give Ron and crew the benefit of the doubt. Hope Z and Haskins ball out.

 

So was Del Rio, since 2017, meanwhile Joe Barry has been consistently employed...

 

Zampese is widely regarded as an excellent QB coach--maybe not much more than that, he failed pretty badly as an OC--but as a QB coach, he is very highly regarded.

[Conn]

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

Zampese is widely regarded as an excellent QB coach--maybe not much more than that, he failed pretty badly as an OC--but as a QB coach, he is very highly regarded.

 

Hasn't Zampese been largely credited with the offensive surge that got Kitchens erroneously hired? That offense and Mayfield fell apart the next season without him. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

36 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

Hasn't Zampese been largely credited with the offensive surge that got Kitchens erroneously hired? That offense and Mayfield fell apart the next season without him. 

Yeah, who knows exactly how much credit each person should get.  
 

My personal opinion: the combination of Zampese and Turner with Ron as HC and the commitment the team has made to him will put him in an infinitely better position than Jay/Callahan + KOC + whatever his name was who was the QB coach.  
 

He’s at least going to be prepared to play rather than ignored for 6 months 

[joeken24]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah, who knows exactly how much credit each person should get.  
 

My personal opinion: the combination of Zampese and Turner with Ron as HC and the commitment the team has made to him will put him in an infinitely better position than Jay/Callahan + KOC + whatever his name was who was the QB coach.  
 

He’s at least going to be prepared to play rather than ignored for 6 months 

I am in agreement with this. I'm interested to see how dynamic Turner will be as a play caller and if this offense will attack the defense. Seems like the past offensive coordinators was too archaic. We'll see

[Riggo#44]

9 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

Hasn't Zampese been largely credited with the offensive surge that got Kitchens erroneously hired? That offense and Mayfield fell apart the next season without him. 

 

Was he the OC under Kitchens? He was pretty bad as the OC in Cincinnati...

 

To your point, yes, he was largely credited for Kitchen's and Mayfield's success.

[HTTRDynasty]

12 hours ago, joeken24 said:

Stop it bro. He may have been ranked for tight window throws but that's about it. Mayfield sucks. Why are we on a Redskins thread talking about a bum?

It’s clear you don’t understand PFF’s accuracy metrics, and that’s okay. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 hours ago, joeken24 said:

I am in agreement with this. I'm interested to see how dynamic Turner will be as a play caller and if this offense will attack the defense. Seems like the past offensive coordinators was too archaic. We'll see

We went from three of the best offensive minds in football, Mike and Kyke Shanahan and Sean McVay to Jay Gruden/Callahan, Cavanaugh and KOC.  
 

The fact Bruce allowed this to happen is one of his biggest crimes as a team president.  
 

It’s amazing to think from 2013 to the end of 2019 how amazingly far the team fell in terms of coaching, especially on offense.  And who knew Manusky actually ended up as bad as Barry and worse than Haz.  Just shocking. 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

We went from three of the best offensive minds in football, Mike and Kyke Shanahan and Sean McVay to Jay Gruden/Callahan, Cavanaugh and KOC.  
 

The fact Bruce allowed this to happen is one of his biggest crimes as a team president.  
 

It’s amazing to think from 2013 to the end of 2019 how amazingly far the team fell in terms of coaching, especially on offense.  And who knew Manusky actually ended up as bad as Barry and worse than Haz.  Just shocking. 

 

One thing I'm really curious about with Haskins and the new offense is how he'll work out in more of an Air Coryell based system as opposed to a WCO. Obviously nothing is really "pure digit/Coryell" or "pure WCO" anymore for the most part, but there are still distinct differences. Seems like Coryell may be a bit more adaptable to what your QB does well, but also depends a bit more on your QB being able to read coverages, since it's not necessarily a pure progression system. 

 

Of course this is all based on my limited understanding of the main differences between Coryell and WCO offenses.

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

On 6/4/2020 at 2:35 PM, MartinC said:

One thing I'd love to see him do is get his elbow higher in delivery - he has a low elbow and I think thats what leads to some of his misses high, But changing throwing motion is a non trivial thing.

 

 

On the BAFCA podcast (episode 3) Zampese said he doesn't mess with QBs delivery much (if at all). Footwork, balance, & body alignment is more important to accuracy.  

 

18 hours ago, joeken24 said:

I guess. But again, Zampese was out the league for a reason. But I'll give Ron and crew the benefit of the doubt. Hope Z and Haskins ball out.

 

He was "out of the league" because of offset language in his contract with Cleveland. He was getting paid by Cleveland as long as he didn't have a paying coaching job. He stated as much in the same BAFCA podcast episode mentioned above.

 

18 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

So was Del Rio, since 2017, meanwhile Joe Barry has been consistently employed...

 

 

Del Rio had the same type of offset language in his contract with the Raiders. They were paying him 6 million a year to not coach.

 

[HTTRDynasty]

Haskins to Sims:

 

 

[joeken24]

11 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

It’s clear you don’t understand PFF’s accuracy metrics, and that’s okay. 

I'll admit PFF is not my expertise. But football is a visual sport that takes place in the real world. So while he may be a good dude to pickup on your fantasy squad, he's a bum on the football field. BTW, can you lose fantasy points for interception? I am not being sarcastic. I really don't understand fantasy football.