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FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State


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1 minute ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

 

I mean green bay has money tied into Preston's smith, z smith...rodgers..their OTs...they got jaire coming up.. they signed amos...chiefs got mahomes contract coming up..they signed tyreek.  They got frank clark signed I believe...chris jones is due now. I mean at any point we can resign these players that we need to resign. I frankly dont think that sweat would be a huge signing...but I'm more of a mind that a great d line is number 1 way to stop any great qb. Mahomes literally did just enough to squeak in a win. And he wasnt particularly good in any fashion. I think overall we can agree that in any fashion we gonna have players that walk.

 

I dont think that tua and his injuries equals a greater upside than haskins developing. Cause either way...its a crap shoot . But we already got one. Young over kerrigan is a tremendous upgrade though.. 

 

Green Bay is paying a ton of money to those guys, but they were the absolute least respected 13-3 team I've ever seen. And they got their **** kicked in. They're good, but they weren't top team good. 

 

Paying a quarterback big money is always a catch-22. Most of the time I'd argue it's not worth it. For Mahomes.... it probably is. Though, I have a sneaky suspicion he'll take slightly under what he COULD get. 

 

I think Sweat is going to be a 10+/year sack guy, and maybe more. ESPECIALLY opposite Chase Young. You have to pay a premium for pass rushers putting up those kinds of numbers.

 

I also think the equation is: Young > Sweat, Sweat > Kerrigan. But that example is less of an upgrade than Young over Kerrigan. Though its still a quite a big upgrade. But man, I don't see what you guys see in Haskins. I see a guy capable of being good. And that's about it. 

 

1 minute ago, goskins10 said:

 

I get what you are saying but the injury concerns for Tua are for real. Without injury, I would be with you 100%. But he is coming off a horrific injury. It's not a guarantee he can even play the first year. 

 

The risk is just not worth it and I would say that whether we had Haskins or not. Honestly for me Haskins has nothing to do with it because if they really think Tua is that much better than Haskins then they have to take him. But they better be right. This fan base will be apoplectic. Granted, fan reaction is not the best reason to make football moves. But this is Ron's first draft pick as a Redskins HC. He can't afford to take unnecessary chances - at least i don't think so. So I think you have to take Chase, unless and only unless you are certain Tua can be your guy and is a clear upgrade over Haskins. 

 

I do not think people are thinking Haskins is a lock by any means. But he did enough to deserve a chance to be that guy. For me, I think Tua is just too high risk at #2. 

 

I will say this, if they draft Tua, they better jettison Haskins immediately. I do not want another Robert/Kirk thing here. What a disaster. 

 

Tua has so far been totally clean in his medicals. In one month he has a scan to reveal cartilage build up. If that's clean, he's clean. If it's not, he's not. We can discuss the injury point further then. 

 

I see the logic in taking Chase. But it has zero to do with Haskins and more to do with just how damn good he is. 

 

I agree on your final point. Completely. Haskins folds like a cheap accordion when he's not the starter.

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Let me be clear, I want us to take Chase. With that being said... If the Skins are hoping for a trade down situation, then the perception of us being interested in Tua will help drive up the price. We will be seeing plenty of smoke and mirrors from here on out till draft day. It is definitely smart for us to make all the other teams believe that we are at least interested in all of the very top prospects.

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38 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

the injury concerns for Tua are for real. Without injury, I would be with you 100%. But he is coming off a horrific injury. It's not a guarantee he can even play the first year. 

 

 

That's the wild card but at least judging by what I heard today on the radio, not only will Tua be able to play this season but he should be ready this Spring to do minicamp.  I got no idea if that's true or not but if there is something to the narrative that the hip issue ended up much less serious than what was originally thought -- then it should propel Tua's draft stock.  I also heard his prior two surgeries on his angle were minor procedures that some teams wouldn't even bother to do surgery on period.  

 

I love Tua as a prospect but still I've been probably the leading skeptic on the draft thread about whether he could be trusted health wise.    What I heard today, if true, makes me worry about it less.  Though still it would be up to the doctors to figure that out. 

 

If the discussion is should Tua be on the table.  My vote is yeah no brainer he should be at least considered.  Do they take him?  I don't have a strong opinion on that.  It depends on what they think internally about Haskins and Tua.  The fact for example that some on the board (and I was in that group) touted how Haskins played in the last 2 games to me are irrelevant -- we aren't professional scouts, and we don't see Haskins on a daily basis and have the insider information that the FO does.    So however they see it, I am cool with. 

 

If everything is ideal.  The perfect scenario would be Haskins is a rock star QB and is every bit as good as Tua if not more.  And we can take Chase Young and have our cake and eat it, too.  I doubt anyone here wouldn't love that.  And heck it could be true.  But also it might not be true.  So whatever Kyle thinks on this, I am on board. 

 

Edit:  my post there wasn't all directed to your post, I meandered some on what I think about the topic. 

 

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21 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Green Bay is paying a ton of money to those guys, but they were the absolute least respected 13-3 team I've ever seen. And they got their **** kicked in. They're good, but they weren't top team good. 

 

Paying a quarterback big money is always a catch-22. Most of the time I'd argue it's not worth it. For Mahomes.... it probably is. Though, I have a sneaky suspicion he'll take slightly under what he COULD get

 

I think Sweat is going to be a 10+/year sack guy, and maybe more. ESPECIALLY opposite Chase Young. You have to pay a premium for pass rushers putting up those kinds of numbers.

 

I also think the equation is: Young > Sweat, Sweat > Kerrigan. But that example is less of an upgrade than Young over Kerrigan. Though its still a quite a big upgrade. But man, I don't see what you guys see in Haskins. 

 

21 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I see the logic in taking Chase. But it has zero to do with Haskins and more to do with just how damn good he is. 

 

 

 

Lol, yeah they got their butts kicked...but we both know why...their offensive line was offensive...and their defense just couldn't stop the run. 49ers line is what got them an inch away from the dub. The giants d line is what got them the two dubs. But let's just say that haskins only becomes good...or an above average starter...when you have that d line it doesn't matter. They will dominate amd you'll win a lot of games. Rodgers by almost any measure didnt play all too well but their defense carried them. And they are paying a ton of money for it but ..whens last time skins been 13-3? I take that and youd take that ANYDAY..I'm sure. 

 

Now if you agree that most qbs arent worth the mega contract amd really mahomes and maybe lamar and russ are worth it currently then you shouldnt be pressing for a upgrade. I mean the quickest blueprint to success currently isn't an injured rookie qb. Its through the defense. We just need haskins to play decent. A jimmy g level of play. 

 

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I can't hear the questions, but for what Smith says about players, go to 15:50 for when he starts talking about Dwayne Haskins.  In comparison go to 13:55 for him to talk about Guice.

 

The vibe I'm getting from Kyle Smith is that he's happy going into 2020 with Dwayne as the starting QB.  Now this vibe just says what he thinks on Dwayne, not what Rivera thinks, or what Kyle Smith thinks of Burrow/Tua/Herbert/etc in relation to Dwayne.

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4 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

 

I can't hear the questions, but for what Smith says about players, go to 15:50 for when he starts talking about Dwayne Haskins.  In comparison go to 13:55 for him to talk about Guice.

 

The vibe I'm getting from Kyle Smith is that he's happy going into 2020 with Dwayne as the starting QB.  Now this vibe just says what he thinks on Dwayne, not what Rivera thinks, or what Kyle Smith thinks of Burrow/Tua/Herbert/etc in relation to Dwayne.

 

I watched and posted his comments here.  It was the most positive pro Haskins stuff I've seen probably from any coach or FO person post draft.  So that reassured me some.   If he genuinely feels that Haskins is going to kill it, then I agree no way Tua is on the table and in that context he shouldn't be.

 

If I went to Vegas now, I'd put a lot of money that they do the most obvious thing which is stay at 2 and take Chase. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

Tua has a longer injury history than RGIII did as a prospect and yet people are so eager to draft him.  I’ll never understand this fan base. 
 

Can anyone name some college QBs with as many injuries as Tua (including at least one extremely serious injury) that have found long-term success in the NFL?


The Browns had the same choice we will, they took Garrett over DeShaun.

 

The Jags opted to develop Bortles and Tennessee did the same with Mariota. SD should have moved on from Rivers & drafted DeShaun, the Jets were lost in Fitzmagic, & the Bengals were still checking out mr Dalton.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, arftech said:

 

Nope, not enough to depart with the second pick.  In fact, I'd rather have Chase.  Unplug the damn phones!

 

I wouldn't either.  If they threw in next year's #1 I'd at least think about it, that would be the RG3 deal but even richer because you get the #1 picks faster over 2 years versus 3. 

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5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If I went to Vegas now, I'd put a lot of money that they do the most obvious thing which is stay at 2 and take Chase. 

 

 

 

 

I would as well.  I think the odds of teams giving up the farm to #2 to draft Tua is less.  There's a bit less pressure with big names available in Free Agency, and perceived depth in this QB draft class.

 

 

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To me the wild card is this.  Kyle supposedly has really good connections at Alabama.  If this is the scouting report, he's getting then I'd presume he's at least tempted.  If he's convinced Haskins is a more elusive Big Ben or whatever else, then he's probably not tempted.

 

I think @volsmet's point is spot on.  If I am reading him right, he's simply saying you don't ride a bird in hand at QB even if you like said QB if you might LOVE another prospect at QB that you think might be a peg higher.  The difference between a good QB and a great QB is often SB.    As for the discussion as to whose better Haskins or Tua, leave that for the FO to decide that but the conversation should at least be had. 

 

https://www.al.com/alabamafootball/2020/02/nick-saban-compares-tua-tagovailoa-to-aaron-rodgers-drew-brees.html

Brees, the NFL’s all-time career passing leader, has often been tied to Tagovailoa because the two share a lack of typical height for the position; Brees is six-feet tall and Tagovailoa is 6-foot-1.

Before the Alabama-LSU game in Baton Rouge two years ago, Brees said he “couldn’t be more impressed” with Tagovailoa’s style of play.

In comparing Tagovailoa’s traits to NFL quarterbacks, Saban gave Sports Illustrated the usual comparison to Brees but also mentioned another of the league’s most accomplished passers.

“I think he’s a lot like Drew Brees. I always thought Aaron Rodgers was a lot like that as a player too,” Saban said. “Not overly big, accurate with the ball, really good judgment, decision-making. Those guys are the style of player. I would never say the expectation should be he would accomplish what those guys have, I’d never wanna put that on a guy. But that’s the style of player he is.”

 

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3 minutes ago, volsmet said:


The Browns had the same choice we will, they took Garrett over DeShaun.

 

I'd personally take Baker Mayfield and Myles Garrett over Watson.  I think Mayfield is much closer to the player he showed in his rookie year, which was a top 10 QB in this league.

 

Fair point on Watson's injury history being comparable to Tua's.  But this somewhat proves my point.  He had a lengthy injury history in college, and as soon as he came into the league, he added yet another serious injury to his resume.  I'm not very confident he can be relied on long term given his style of play and his body's history of not holding up.  I'd be extremely nervous giving him $40mm APY and $100mm guaranteed.

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20 minutes ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

 

 

Now if you agree that most qbs arent worth the mega contract amd really mahomes and maybe lamar and russ are worth it currently then you shouldnt be pressing for a upgrade. I mean the quickest blueprint to success currently isn't an injured rookie qb. Its through the defense. We just need haskins to play decent. A jimmy g level of play. 

 

 

I think Tua gives you the best chance to win in the 5 year rookie window. 

 

I don't think Haskins does. meaning, I don't think we win a Super Bowl in the next 4 years with Haskins at the helm. But I cannot explain to you how much I hope I'm wrong.

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1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

I think Tua gives you the best chance to win in the 5 year rookie window. 

 

I don't think Haskins does. meaning, I don't think we win a Super Bowl in the next 4 years with Haskins at the helm. But I cannot explain to you how much I hope I'm wrong.

So our current roster plus tua warrants a better chance of a sb than a dwayne haskins playing a jimmy g level of play and chase young to our defense? Idk...maybe past 5 year window I could see it...but not short term. Chase young takes our line over the top and can propel our defense to a top 5 if he shows out like projected. Tua...and most rookie qbs dont really ball out. Even big Ben was carried by his defense til he got better. Rookie russ was a mere game manager was carried by his defense. Jimmy was carried by his defense. And all in all...as great as peyton was...he didnt win til he had an actual defense. The mantra defense wins championships just doesnt come from anywhere.

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1 minute ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I'd personally take Baker Mayfield and Myles Garrett over Watson.  I think Mayfield is much closer to the player he showed in his rookie year, which was a top 10 QB in this league.

 

Fair point on Watson's injury history being comparable to Tua's.  But this somewhat proves my point.  He had a lengthy injury history in college, and as soon as he came into the league, he added yet another serious injury to his resume.  I'm not very confident he can be relied on long term given his style of play and his body's history of not holding up.  I'd be extremely nervous giving him $40mm APY and $100mm guaranteed.


That answer doesn’t make much sense to me, they drafted Garrett over Watson & became the worst team in nfl history before landing the #1 pick again. I’d take Watson over Baker & Garrett, that’s not particularly close for me, but you glossed over the fact that they had to continue being the worst team in football, history, to get Baker. 
 

Where real life & our hypotheticals collide, I wouldn’t pay anyone 40 million a year. I just want the guy with the most potential to positively influence a game while on his rookie deal. Then he can get paid by someone else. 
 

I don’t think many would agree that Watson proves your point, my friend. I think 99% of the football community, if not 100%, would be eager to sign Watson long term - at whatever the market commanded he get. I think every team that passed on him, other than KC, regrets it. 

 

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6 minutes ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

So our current roster plus tua warrants a better chance of a sb than a dwayne haskins playing a jimmy g level of play and chase young to our defense? Idk...maybe past 5 year window I could see it...but not short term. Chase young takes our line over the top and can propel our defense to a top 5 if he shows out like projected. Tua...and most rookie qbs dont really ball out. Even big Ben was carried by his defense til he got better. Rookie russ was a mere game manager was carried by his defense. Jimmy was carried by his defense. And all in all...as great as peyton was...he didnt win til he had an actual defense. The mantra defense wins championships just doesnt come from anywhere.

 

Yes. Tua in 5 years > Haskins in 4. 

 

I think our D becomes better anyways with good coaching. Yes, Chase would improve it further. No question.

 

But I worry about the offense. 

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2 minutes ago, 757SeanTaylor21 said:

So our current roster plus tua warrants a better chance of a sb than a dwayne haskins playing a jimmy g level of play and chase young to our defense? Idk...maybe past 5 year window I could see it...but not short term. Chase young takes our line over the top and can propel our defense to a top 5 if he shows out like projected. Tua...and most rookie qbs dont really ball out. Even big Ben was carried by his defense til he got better. Rookie russ was a mere game manager was carried by his defense. Jimmy was carried by his defense. And all in all...as great as peyton was...he didnt win til he had an actual defense. The mantra defense wins championships just doesnt come from anywhere.


Both sides of the argument have merit. It’s certainly not black & white. I’ve been higher on Young than most for 5 years, I’m not as high on Tua as his biggest supporters, & I would trade Tua even if he led us to multiple SBs... as I would have traded Russell Wilson, who played at an mvp level a year ago. The Wentz contract allowed Philly to win, the Mahomes contract allowed KC to win, the Wilson contract allowed Seattle to win, the Lamar contract allows Baltimore to dominate, the Goff contract allowed the Rams to win. 
 

I think you can absolutely win a SB with DH, but I believe, if you grade Tua as a truly special prospect, and don’t regard DH in the same way, you have to take the cheap upgrade at QB. 
 

KC was picking 27th, Alex Smith was playing very well, but they went and got the cheap, gifted, qb... they upgraded when the opportunity to move on from a guy who led them to the playoffs was there. It cost them a good bit in draft capital, but you have to upgrade the QB position when you have the opportunity. I’m not guaranteeing Tua is an upgrade, I’m simply stating that it’s an easy decision, imo, to take the QB over the edge. To take Watson over Garrett. 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I think Tua gives you the best chance to win in the 5 year rookie window. 

 

I don't think Haskins does. meaning, I don't think we win a Super Bowl in the next 4 years with Haskins at the helm. But I cannot explain to you how much I hope I'm wrong.

 

I disagree with getting Tua but this is the selling point for me. I can see this just because of his mobility. 

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I'm not quite as far on the "trade/get rid of the QB at the end of the rookie window" thing as volsmet. But I'm along the same lines. When you have to pay your QB big boy money, you suffer.

 

In the case of an earlier point of Green Bay, they have so much money tied up on the DEs and the QB that they can't spend as much on the OL/weapons/backers/secondary.

 

Yes, that impacts them.  Significantly. 

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41 minutes ago, volsmet said:


That answer doesn’t make much sense to me, they drafted Garrett over Watson & became the worst team in nfl history before landing the #1 pick again. I’d take Watson over Baker & Garrett, that’s not particularly close for me, but you glossed over the fact that they had to continue being the worst team in football, history, to get Baker. 
 

Where real life & our hypotheticals collide, I wouldn’t pay anyone 40 million a year. I just want the guy with the most potential to positively influence a game while on his rookie deal. Then he can get paid by someone else. 
 

I don’t think many would agree that Watson proves your point, my friend. I think 99% of the football community, if not 100%, would be eager to sign Watson long term - at whatever the market commanded he get. I think every team that passed on him, other than KC, regrets it. 

 

 

I wasn't originally really debating the order of the way things occurred for the Browns.  Just the fact that they took who they considered the BPA in 2017, passing on a top QB prospect.  Maybe they did so because they believed they would have a great shot at getting Baker next year and had a higher grade on him.  They also ended up with Denzel Ward as part of the Texans' trade up for Watson in 2017.  So they ended up with Garrett, Baker and Ward over Watson and an unknown (unknown because I'm not sure where they would have finished with Watson at QB) 2018 1st rounder.  I guess I'm higher on Baker than you are and lower on Watson (though I still think Watson is better), but I'd take the former group of players over the latter.

 

I agree with your philosophy not to pay QBs past their rookie contracts from a financial perspective.  I just don't think that's ever going to catch on in the real world. 

- For one, that would be terrible for the locker room.  The leader of the room has given his blood, sweat and tears for your organization, but you trade him away right when he's up for a contract players will feel he has earned.  That will let players know anyone can and will be cut no matter how much they give to the organization.

- Second, coaches have jobs on the line.  You think people will want to coach for your organization after you ship off the franchise QB and ask them to find a way to stay competitive?  That's a hard sell.

- Third, if the QB is good enough to win you a SB, it will be extremely difficult to find another QB who is as good or better in the next draft.

 

But like I said, I do agree that it makes sense from a financial perspective and I like that you are thinking outside of the box on this.

 

You may be right that teams will pay whatever it takes to sign Watson long-term.  But I think teams would be wise to realize that if Cam Newton's body couldn't hold up past 30, who didn't have a significant injury history in college or the pros until recently and is built like a tank, that there is extreme risk in signing Watson to a long term deal.  I personally wouldn't do it given his injury history and body type.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

So they ended up with Garrett, Baker and Ward over Watson and an unknown 2018 1st rounder.

 

 

 

 

And so far, what has that netted them? Year 4 of the rookie deals on the first leg of that grouping. 

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1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

And so far, what has that netted them? Year 4 of the rookie deals on the first leg of that grouping. 

 

Yep.  Year 4 for Garrett.  Year 3 for Baker and Ward.

 

Unfortunately for them, the coaching in Cleveland has been a laughing stock - worse by far than Gruden.  They have a talented group of players.  I think they'll make some noise this year.

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