Burgold Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 13 minutes ago, TheGreek1973 said: Here is the funny part. Everyone is on the Burrow bandwagon. Has anyone asked where was he in 2018? Nowhere. Same as Haskins really if you think about it. The different is when Haskins went wild in his Junior year would you say he didn't have incredible receivers like Burrow had this year? How many balls did Burrow throw up there and his receivers made the play? Listen personally I never wanted us to draft Haskins because he just had that one year. For my money the QB, if healthy in this year's draft is Tua. He has proven over more than one season he is a special talent. Lets give Haskins a chance. Like another brother said he maybe the next Brady or totally bust. it is worth it to find out Maybe it's an RGIII hangover, but Tua as an injury risk scares the heck out of me. I get that Tua might be a better QB than RGIII, but his body could not hold up to the college game two years in a row. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pick6 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 My uneducated, but gut feeling is Tua will only make a few true starts in the NFL. He will have to retire by 27. The injury history on him is scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 35 minutes ago, Pick6 said: My uneducated, but gut feeling is Tua will only make a few true starts in the NFL. He will have to retire by 27. The injury history on him is scary. He has to go to the right organization. He could be Lamar Jackson or he could be RG3. Maybe the Dolphins are really on the up and up, but I'm not sure. On the flip side if say a team like the Steelers moved up to get him, I bet he'd be a star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pick6 Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 15 minutes ago, Warhead36 said: He has to go to the right organization. He could be Lamar Jackson or he could be RG3. Maybe the Dolphins are really on the up and up, but I'm not sure. On the flip side if say a team like the Steelers moved up to get him, I bet he'd be a star. It isn’t about his talent or the talent around him. It is the fact I don’t think his body will hold up in the NFL. This hip injury is a big deal. Bigger than even an ACL. Even Big Ben has gotten hurt playing for the Steelers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veteranskinsfan Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Just heard the Joe Gibbs interview on 980 radio with Kevin Sheehan. When asked about Haskins he was lukewarm on him. Sheehan believes the current coaches are not sure what they have in Haskins. Joe did not give him a ringing endorsement now to Haskins. If I am Rivera I would bring in a veteran quarterback to give Haskins competition to make sure he earns the starting quarterback job next year. Joe did say if they do not get the quarterback position right then there will be no playoffs next year and no Super Bowl. No kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 There are things I like about Haskins - his arm, size, use of his eyes, confidence and the idea he picks things up quickly (learning from his mistakes)... but one thing that has me fairly optimistic/excited regarding Haskins is the negatives and how they progressed in a short time. Mechanics: I said (and since admitted I was wrong) that I didn’t expect to see much change in his mechanics in-season. Mainly, I believed all of the other things he had to worry about - protections, play calls, reading defenses, film work, etc - would occupy too much time to address the mechanics. I think we saw him make fairly significant strides in terms of matching up his upper and lower body. Still plenty of work to do (especially from a consistency standpoint), but it was encouraging to see his accuracy improve with better footwork. He should have a leg up going into camp with so much more time, and fewer distractions, to work on this aspect. Going through progressions: I don’t know that this was a negative per say, but he 1) needed to speed up his processing, and 2) needed to find his outlet/checkdown quicker and be willing to throw it to them vs forcing a ball into coverage. Yes, a tailored game plan helped, but he operated more quickly the more he was out there. Pocket skills: Most of us were afraid he’d be a statue in the pocket. He showed an ability to sense the pass rush in college, but his movement in and manipulation of the pocket were in doubt. I think he surprised most of us on this front. Protections: I almost don’t want to count this one as it’s a huge part of the learning curve for virtually every young qb. I think we saw improvement though the more playing/practice time he got. I’m still concerned about Haskins’ maturity and leadership skills, but with time/experience/support, I think it’s natural to expect improvement on this front. It’s unfortunate he has to learn a new offense, but I think the experience he’s gained - on the field, off the field, and nuances learned from the previous coaches - should give him a better platform to start from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 If you have no concerns with Haskins you are putting your fingers in your ears and yelling at the top of your lungs because you simply just want the noise to go away. If you have EVERY concern about Haskins (meaning he has no chance), you are doing the same. The answer is somewhere in the middle. On a scale of 1-10 (1 being he has no ability to improve and 10 being he will undoubtedly make the improvement no problem) I put my confidence level in Haskins at about a 4 right now. I'd say anything in the 4-6 range is reasonable. I'll listen to arguments for 3 and 7-8. Beyond those I think it's just people making noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 40 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said: Just heard the Joe Gibbs interview on 980 radio with Kevin Sheehan. When asked about Haskins he was lukewarm on him. Sheehan believes the current coaches are not sure what they have in Haskins. Joe did not give him a ringing endorsement now to Haskins. If I am Rivera I would bring in a veteran quarterback to give Haskins competition to make sure he earns the starting quarterback job next year. Joe did say if they do not get the quarterback position right then there will be no playoffs next year and no Super Bowl. No kidding. Did he say anything specific that he liked or didn't like? I'm honestly not sure how I feel about Joe Gibbs when it comes to evaluation of QBs in the modern NFL. Obviously I love the guy like we all do, but did he ever draft and develop any franchise QBs? He obtained Theismann, but that was via a trade, and Theismann had been in the CFL for a couple years already. His only high draft pick QB ended up being mediocre here and then a career backup afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskinss Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 I love joe gibbs to death but if theres one area I wouldn't bank my money on its his ability to determine who has the potential to be a franchise quarterback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 I highly doubt Gibbs is sitting around watching Haskins tape and making a personal analysis. What Joe is doing is giving his opinion based on his conversations with Ron and those in the organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 I listened to Gibbs, I didn't really get the impression that he was down on Haskins. He just didn't really land on an opinion. But some of Sheehan's callers took that as criticism. On another note, Sheehan has turned from a Haskins critic to being a fairly strong defender of him. It's fun to listen to him defend Haskins to his callers. I am surprised how many of his callers are down on Haskins. Like Sheehan, I was skeptical on Haskins before the season but I mostly liked what I saw in the end. My best shot at piecing together the Haskins narrative based on podcasts from different beat guys and listening to the coaches interviews, is something like this: Haskins positives A. He has talent. Maybe even great talent. B. He is a likable guy who is coachable Haskins negatives A. Is he going to work like the great Qbs do to become great? B. Maturity-leadership. Being on time, acting like a professional. He's kind of quiet off the field -- can he push others to bring out their best. And I get the impression that they don't know one way or another about him overcoming the negatives. You read about Mahomes doing everything Alex taught him to do and much of that involved preparation. Whereas with Dwayne he took to Alex's advice but was not (according to just about everyone who covers the team) manically preparing like Mahomes did. Gibbs of all coaches seems to cite work ethic and leadership over all qualities that he likes in players so if he's heard some questions about Dwayne on that front, I can see that he's not all bought in. I think the leadership-work ethic issue is interwoven to some extent. I've heard coaches say that for a QB -- other players like to see them outworking everyone else since they have more on their plate and its reassuring for example for players to know that Drew Brees will have the opponent's defense dissected to death and thus are in good hands on game day. And it's not that Haskins is depicted as lazy. It's that to be a great QB most say you got to be a relentless studier and grinder and just about everyone who covers the team has said they've heard from multiple coaches and multiple people in the front office variations of hits on Haskins from either being not a hard worker to not working hard enough. But the flip side in a good way is multiple reports said Dwayne really improved on that front as the season progressed. But it's not hard to piece together that they want to see if Haskins continues to evolve and takes advantage of the off season and there are some concerns that he won't. Keim who is far from a flame thrower outright said they want to see how he works this off season, it's an X variable for them. So I do think Rivera is purposely playing up competition to keep Dwayne on edge. Personally, I've felt for a long time that motivation-work ethic is somewhat a static quality and that you either have it or not. But I am not pessimistic on Dwayne on that front. I am in the neutral lets wait and see category. I do think the dude is competitive as heck and on the field strives to be great. That vibe just has to spill over to off the field. And some say to an extent it did as the season progressed. I can detect that some of the strong pro Haskins people can get offended by the work ethic stuff when mentioned. I consider myself strongly pro Haskins. I think we all are. He's our QB. I've said before I've met him multiple times and have seen him interact with my kids, and he's a super nice guy. Great dude. And he impressed me with his play in the last 2 games. If he's not the guy then we are screwed. So I am riding on him. But I don't think Keim and every reporter who covers this team is just making up the concerns in the building about him. It's to me clear as a bell because they all have a variation of the same story. Sheehan ironically is the one guy dissenting on that point by saying he heard the same earlier in the season but that he turned that around. So in my mind whenever I hear Rivera or whomever pause about Haskins and throw up a competitor to his spot -- I think that's on purpose to keep him on edge so he grinds this off season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 To make it simple: I believe there are concerns with Haskins, but not a lot of available contingency plans. I think they will look towards a Bortles type to push Haskins a little but give him a competition he likely wins to gain some confidence for him. If he flames out the team is screwed, but a Bortles type has starter experience at the very least. Problem is how much Bortles would cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 2 hours ago, KDawg said: If you have no concerns with Haskins you are putting your fingers in your ears and yelling at the top of your lungs because you simply just want the noise to go away. If you have EVERY concern about Haskins (meaning he has no chance), you are doing the same. The answer is somewhere in the middle. On a scale of 1-10 (1 being he has no ability to improve and 10 being he will undoubtedly make the improvement no problem) I put my confidence level in Haskins at about a 4 right now. I'd say anything in the 4-6 range is reasonable. I'll listen to arguments for 3 and 7-8. Beyond those I think it's just people making noise. I’d be curious as to your take on his pros/cons, how fixable his flaws are, and any improvements you’ve seen. The following is not why I ask the above (just genuinely curious), but... I think I’d rate Haskins a 7 or 8 or so based on his tools (with room for improvement coming via coaching, mechanics, work ethic), but a 4 or so on work ethic/maturity. So maybe a 6 overall, but that drive could push him up or down a couple of notches. What gives me some comfort is that Dwayne is an intelligent guy and he has desire (not quite the same as drive, IMO). He’s shown he can do a lot of key things that many young qbs struggle with - poise in the pocket (keeping eyes downfield), not staring down receivers, and going through progressions. He needs to get more consistent with these of course, which should come with experience. Point being, he has the desire, and is smart enough to figure out that he needs to work his butt off to achieve his goals, and I don’t see any real physical limitations to his game*. So the sky is the limit in a sense... but it all comes down to finding that drive (along with getting support in terms of coaching and personnel around him). * by limitations, I mean lack of tools to be a great qb. He won’t ever be running the ball like crazy and I question whether he’ll ever be a great downfield passer, but you can be great without excelling in those areas. @Skinsinparadise Yeah, that work ethic (in the hardcore sense) is my biggest concern right now. On the bright side, he obviously has a desire to be great. On the downside, coming in and not immediately showing that drive is a huge red flag. To your point, he showed improvement in that area, but what are the chances he does a full 180 (or thereabouts)? I thought it was interesting that 1) Meyer was in the press box with Snyder 2) Meyer has talked about him not overly praising Dwayne so as to keep him hungry/focused/whatever (paraphrasing, obviously) 3) Snyder has a bunch of sit downs with Rivera 4) Rivera comes out and says they’ll have a competition at qb Makes me wonder if Meyer’s take/philosophy was passed over to Rivera... though obviously Rivera could have just arrived at that stance on his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, skinny21 said: I’d be curious as to your take on his pros/cons, how fixable his flaws are, and any improvements you’ve seen. Pros: -Arm, size, strength, decent athletic ability -Fast learner Cons: -Maturity -Mechanics -Reads Fixable or not depends completely on Haskins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 22 minutes ago, skinny21 said: I I thought it was interesting that 1) Meyer was in the press box with Snyder 2) Meyer has talked about him not overly praising Dwayne so as to keep him hungry/focused/whatever (paraphrasing, obviously) 3) Snyder has a bunch of sit downs with Rivera 4) Rivera comes out and says they’ll have a competition at qb Makes me wonder if Meyer’s take/philosophy was passed over to Rivera... though obviously Rivera could have just arrived at that stance on his own. The Snyder sit downs where was that from? I don't recall that aside from the predraft process. Yeah to me the script for Haskins this off season seems pretty clear. I think they want to see if he can grind without having external factors making him do it. The football off season is long. It's been made pretty clear from the people who cover the team who said they heard that Haskins didn't do anything to distinguish himself during camp both as to his play and his preparation. But then he picked it up. Both Callahan and O'Connell talked about his work habits picking up. And the season ended well, which is great. I gather the X factor is does it last. I like a lot of what I've seen from Haskins towards the end of the season. And I think he's a good dude. It seems like he has some intangibles he needs to develop. When I heard the NY Giant reporters talk about how the Giants coaches-FO love Daniel Jones in part because what he does in the building besides just on game day which includes he's the first guy in, last guy to leave, up before 5 am, etc -- they painted a picture different from what the Redskins beat guys have painted about Dwayne. But they said Dwayne was kicking in that way towards the end of the season. So I gather the wildcard is they want to see will Dwayne be how they saw him in the off season-early season or is he that dude that ended the year. And since Dwayne has to learn a new playbook and plays, etc -- there is some deja vous to see if Dwayne really kills it and is ready to go at the start of the camp or it comes off that he didn't take it as seriously in the off season as they'd have liked. If the picture being painted by every beat guy who covers the team is true, I think Rivera is going to be good for Haskins -- because he's a natural leader and people person who I think might end up being adept at pushing the right buttons for Haskins if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 hour ago, KDawg said: If you have no concerns with Haskins you are putting your fingers in your ears and yelling at the top of your lungs because you simply just want the noise to go away. On a scale of 1-10 (1 being he has no ability to improve and 10 being he will undoubtedly make the improvement no problem) I put my confidence level in Haskins at about a 4 right now. I'd say anything in the 4-6 range is reasonable. I'll listen to arguments for 3 and 7-8. Beyond those I think it's just people making noise. You know, I'm sure I'm doing a little bit of the fingers in the ear thing. And I know I view the teams chances in more rose colored glasses than most. If you check out the 2018 Niners team (they went 4-12) and compare that to the 2019 Skins team, the similarities are surprising. So much so, that I'm positive the Niners will regress and are likely a wildcard at best team, with a ceiling at 10 wins. I'm not saying we're going to the Super Bowl, just that we're going to surprise. The Athletic's Sheil Kapadia (general NFL writer, was previously an Eagles beat guy), thinks we'll be a Top 5 defense with Chase Young. Do I eat that up? Of course I do. How biased and homer am I? I'm not sure how I, myself, can tell that. I'd have to let others be that judge. Back to your post. I have a question about the grading scale. Is a 4-6 range saying you are basically undecided on if he'll improve or get better? From where are we judging his improvement from? Whole season body of work? Are we weighting it for the last few games? For me, I guess I'm at an 8. Let's start with this post I made awhile back. Puts his stats (as a starter) in comparison with the rest of the NFL: I saw a Ron Rivera interview, with either GMFB or Pat McAfee (forget which), where he mentioned from tape, it looked like the first time he had a gameplan tailored more towards him was the Lions game (his 3rd start). This makes sense. First two starts were Bills and Jets, and one of the issues with Haskins was getting in and out of the huddle quickly, calling the plays succinctly, and then having enough time to read what the defense was telling you. You can see where the trend is going there in the graph on the post I linked to. That's elite territory. Even if he develops like crazy, he won't be there every week. The last 2 games were against an ailing Eagles defense, and a woeful Giants defense. So it doesn't show his ability to persevere against stout and stingy defenses, but it does show his ability to dissect and exploit bad defenses. He happened to do so at an elite level in terms of completion percentage and air yards attempted. So hitting a higher rate of tougher throws. Here's another graph, about his progress as a player for the 5 games where Rivera thinks he was gameplanned for. Here's a quote from Haskins. This is the only link I can find so far that mentions it. There's maybe more to the quote, or more context, or something that I'm not finding. I remember him mentioning more about figuring it out. Quote "It happened last week versus the Eagles. That first completion. Once that first completion starts and we're finding ways to manipulate the defense, and knowing what they're doing and calling great plays and me just trusting what the coach calls…" Haskins said before trailing off, speaking of the game finally clicking for him. The wrong way to go about measuring Haskins, imo, is to look at his stats for the whole season. I think with someone whose a rookie QB, you look for stats game by game, not season as a whole. And then you look at what the trends show. So in terms of a grading scale of 1-10, with the question, does he develop? I think we've already seen development to say he's at a 6. I think the light bulb has gone on, and we're looking at someone who now understands what it means to be a QB in the NFL. Can he develop further into being an above average QB? Or eventually an elite QB? I don't know, but I feel confident that a floor as now been set as to his development, and it's higher than most here seem to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 It means I have a 4 in confidence he improves. Which means its somewhat in between but leaning closer to him being what he is. Hope for him to be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 3 hours ago, mistertim said: Did he say anything specific that he liked or didn't like? I'm honestly not sure how I feel about Joe Gibbs when it comes to evaluation of QBs in the modern NFL. Obviously I love the guy like we all do, but did he ever draft and develop any franchise QBs? Gibbs said nothing really. No specifics.🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyst Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Let's be honest here. Haskins was awful last year except for 1 and a half games. Joe would be lying if he praised him as a franchise QB. He may become that one day but not based on last years tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, dyst said: Let's be honest here. Haskins was awful last year except for 1 and a half games. Yup, he did not look good. 8 minutes ago, dyst said: He may become that one day but not based on last years tape. I think this is the wrong take for rookie QB's. It weighs a QB's tape equally from their first snap, to their last, and I don't think that makes sense. Take Haskins first on field experience against the Giants. He was thrown in there by Jay Gruden to a) prove that he wasn't ready to ownership/Bruce Allen so that he could start Colt McCoy the next week, b) wasn't prepared by Jay in training camp, pre-season, or practice in the regular season to do much of anything, and c) was callously used in a manner to fail. Then compare that to Haskins last on field experience, also against the Giants where he had an ANY/A of almost 10. Are we supposed to ignore context for young players? Put on a dozen random plays by a rookie and use that to judge them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said: Yup, he did not look good. I think this is the wrong take for rookie QB's. It weighs a QB's tape equally from their first snap, to their last, and I don't think that makes sense. Take Haskins first on field experience against the Giants. He was thrown in there by Jay Gruden to a) prove that he wasn't ready to ownership/Bruce Allen so that he could start Colt McCoy the next week, b) wasn't prepared by Jay in training camp, pre-season, or practice in the regular season to do much of anything, and c) was callously used in a manner to fail. Then compare that to Haskins last on field experience, also against the Giants where he had an ANY/A of almost 10. Are we supposed to ignore context for young players? Put on a dozen random plays by a rookie and use that to judge them? I'm not sure this is true. Didn't Keenum get hurt? Who else was he going to put in? He had one active QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 17 minutes ago, KDawg said: I'm not sure this is true. Didn't Keenum get hurt? Who else was he going to put in? He had one active QB. Yeah I thought Keenum was out with an injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 24 minutes ago, KDawg said: I'm not sure this is true. Didn't Keenum get hurt? Who else was he going to put in? He had one active QB. I can't remember. If he was hurt, then that makes Gruden look a little better. Regardless, he still chose not to prepare a rookie QB, then still threw the normal gameplan at a rookie QB that he knew was not prepared. Then acted disappointed the rookie QB he never prepared, and knew wasn't prepared, played like he was unprepared. I had a higher view of Gruden as a head coach until Coughlin took over, the disparity between them from actions and words were stark. I still think Gruden could be a fine OC, and I don't wish him ill will in Jacksonville. But I don't think Gruden has what it takes to be a Head Coach in the NFL. It's the 'Peter Principle'. " Peter, which observes that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their "level of incompetence": an employee is promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent, as skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Keenum was definitely injured, but Gruden said afterwards he could have kept playing but he put Haskins in to see if he could provide a spark and that he couldn't. Yall know Gruden talks too much. edit: that was the game that got him fired im recalling. I dont know if that was the giants game or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePackisback Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Just now, Llevron said: Keenum was definitely injured, but Gruden said afterwards he could have kept playing but he put Haskins in to see if he could provide a spark and that he couldn't. Yall know Gruden talks too much. If Keenum played against us we probably would have lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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