FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Llevron]

4 minutes ago, Blue Ridger said:

 

Yeah I misread it thinking it said if you weren't a fan of the redskins who would be your team or whatever. And apparently there's no way to edit it. 

 

🤨.......

 

Burn him. We cant be too sure. 

[clskinsfan]

1 minute ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Help me out here.

 

Most half field reads (or all?) are generally zone/read decisions.  Then choose the side with the zone beaters or the man beaters.  If I recall, that was a big part of Kirk Cousins decision making here.

 

So how do we know that Haskins does full field reads?  What's different from half to full?  Example, Haskins likes to do formation vs formation coverage matchups.  So it's trips to one side, Haskins puts somebody in motion to identify man/zone, if man, then based on alignment DB 1 has the inside breaking route, DB 2 has the outside breaking route, and DB3 has the first vertical route.  Then he makes a quick decision based on whose likely caught in traffic, etc.

 

Would that be a half field read?  What's an example of a full field read?

 

As you said it depends on the offensive formation. Trips right or left is almost always a half field read. Ohio state did some of this. But as the season went on they used a ton of mesh concept passing. Which is a MAJOR part of Air Raid offense. That requires being able to diagnose defense pre snap, read the defense quickly post snap (safety and LB positioning) and deliver an accurate short to medium range pass, Usually on a crossing route. This is something that Haskins excels at. And he got better at it as the season progressed. Here is a really good link on understanding the mesh offense. Dont forget to click the links on calling the play and understanding OL protections in that system. Haskins has mastered OL protections pre snap as well. 

 

https://www.cougcenter.com/2013/4/10/4120598/air-raid-playbook-the-mesh

 

And here is an EXCELLENT article on how Ohio State used the mesh (Haskins strengths) to destroy college football last season:

 

https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/film-study/2019/02/102363/film-study-by-incorporating-more-bunch-and-compressed-formations-ohio-states-offense-opened-up-in-2019

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

You're definitely right that we need more YAC play-makers to maximize Haskins' potential, but I imagine that's the case for the majority of NFL QBs.

 

If you look at Average Intended Air Yards throughout the league on Next Gen Stats, some notable QB's that were bottom 20 (out of 39) last year in AIAY were:

A lot of top QBs in the league depend on guys getting YAC to boost their own stats, so not sure why that has been made out to be such a knock on Haskins throughout this draft process (not saying you are doing that).

 

Sure, I am not arguing other QBs don't need YAC.  They all need YAC 😀.   College numbers for whatever reason on average look to be higher than the NFL as to air yards. 

 

My larger point here is do we have the horses with our current set up to facilitate a young QB to have success from the get go?   I am in the camp that I don't like to throw a QB into the fire unless they are set up well to succeed or at least do OK.   Too many narratives for me (granted its just theory) that young QBs can get shell shocked and lose confidence if they have a stumbling start.  I want to avoid that here.   

 

The O line if healthy is decent, running game too.  Not sure about receiver.   I definitely wouldn't him in there if the O line gets ravaged with injuries like the last two years. 

[HTTRDynasty]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Sure, I am not arguing other QBs don't need YAC.  They all need YAC 😀.   College numbers for whatever reason on average look to be higher than the NFL as to air yards. 

 

My larger point here is do we have the horses with our current set up to facilitate a young QB to have success from the get go?   I am in the camp that I don't like to throw a QB into the fire unless they are set up well to succeed or at least do OK.   Too many narratives for me (granted its just theory) that young QBs can get shell shocked and lose confidence if they have a stumbling start.  I want to avoid that here.   

 

The O line if healthy is decent, running game too.  Not sure about receiver.   I definitely wouldn't him in there if the O line gets ravaged with injuries like the last two years. 

 

Oh, I agree.  I'm in the same camp.  I think, at the very least, Haskins should sit for half the season.  People like to point to recent rookie QB's having success in the NFL from game 1, but nearly all of those QB's had their legs to rely on when the play broke down.  Haskins doesn't have that to the degree most other rookie QB's have had.  For him, I think it makes the most sense to do what the NFL used to do back when rookie QB's were pure pocket passers: let him sit and learn.  I want him to have as much time as he needs working on his footwork, mechanics, and most importantly, reading NFL coverages and studying NFL level protections, so he doesn't get killed out there if a play breaks down, and, as a result, start developing bad mechanics and tendencies to compensate.

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

3 hours ago, Blue Ridger said:

As each day goes by I am liking this Haskins pick less and less. I do not think he has the experience and maturity yet to handle adversity, especially in this market. Would have liked to see another year in college from him. Hope I'm wrong but based on what I've heard and read lately, other teams seemed to have picked up on this which is why no one else had him graded in the 1st. Looks like we once again have crowned ourselves offseason champs

I didn't have the stones to say what you did nor the energy to reply to every venomous poster on the boards that will become enraged with this comment but I hate to admit im kind of agreeing with you. With that said I have more faith in Haskins becoming a serviceable pro or even a star over anything Josh Rosen would have brought to the table so I'll take that comfort  heading into the preseason. HTTR

[Mr. Sinister]

 

45 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Its not a bad piece really. Its actually fair. But this is why I say yall do it to yourselves. These people write this stuff to get clicks. Thats why you see things that the fans complain about that really shouldn't matter used to get clicks. Like the "you dont messed up" quote. It literally has nothing to do with the (good) information she put in there, but she started with it and went back to it because you people are rubes and fall for it every time. Same thing they do with the Snyder stuff. Makes it real easy to act like you know whats going on when the fan base tells you what they want you to write. 

 

And when I say you people I just mean Redskins fans in general not anyone in particular. I dont want no problems lol

 

I dont know where I come down yet, personally. All I know is this was gonna be a boring, suckass year, and Jadkins saved me.

 

So if we suck, at the very least, it won't be boring, and we didn't give up a monumental amount of 1st round picks for it 👍

[Llevron]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

 

I dont know where I come down yet, personally. All I know is this was gonna be a boring, suckass year, and Jadkins saved me.

 

So if we suck, at the very least, it won't be boring, and we didn't give up a monumental amount of 1st round picks for it 👍

 

Its sad that you people can know whats happening and still fall for it. 

 

And by you people i mean me too lol. I feel you. I hope it works but if not atleast I like football this season. 

[MartinC]

18 hours ago, redskinss said:

I know almost nothing about college football and I'm sure that's probably a normal thing it just seems strange to me that this extremely talented young quarterback had to sit for two years behind someone who didn't even get drafted.

 

 

Murray started 1 year as well. It happens.

[LD0506]

Since it was mentioned, I have no idea whether Jones will be good or not, and you have to believe that the Giants have some kinda clue what they're doing, but DAYUM I am loving it that an NFC East team is getting trolled daily about tripping over their own feet and it isn't US!

[Llevron]

I also really enjoy the fact that we drafted QBs in the same year and there is going to be legit angst between the two of us. 

[Mr. Sinister]

17 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Its sad that you people can know whats happening and still fall for it. 

 

And by you people i mean me too lol. I feel you. I hope it works but if not atleast I like football this season. 

 

Blame Josh Johnson.

 

Watching people celebrate at the thought of him leading us to a playoff berth broke something deep down inside of me

[JaxJoe]

39 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

I think, at the very least, Haskins should sit for half the season.  People like to point to recent rookie QB's having success in the NFL from game 1, but nearly all of those QB's had their legs to rely on when the play broke down.  Haskins doesn't have that to the degree most other rookie QB's have had.

Very sensible, especially regarding other rookie QBs having the legs to get them out of a jam, Like Newton, RG3, etc..  what I am leery of is putting Haskins in mid-season. The assumption is the train is off the rails. I’d hate to throw Haskins in there if that occurs. I guess the more favorable assumption is the veteran starter is choking badly despite great protection and wide-open receiver(s) AND Haskins has come along very very well. Frankly, I just don’t see that scenario play out. I’m an either or type: either he gets the start (based on a solid camp) or he sits the whole season.  I am leaning on the later but hoping for the prior. 

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

13 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

Since it was mentioned, I have no idea whether Jones will be good or not, and you have to believe that the Giants have some kinda clue what they're doing, but DAYUM I am loving it that an NFC East team is getting trolled daily about tripping over their own feet and it isn't US!

I remember last year when we drafted Guice many , MANY people here said the Giants got the second best running back in the draft in Barkley, Alot of people predicted he would be another Reggie Bush...... Will be interesting to see a healthy Guice take the field and see if my ES Brethren are right and he is better than Saquon who was unreal last season.. Fingers crossed  

[HTTRDynasty]

6 minutes ago, JaxJoe said:

Very sensible, especially regarding other rookie QBs having the legs to get them out of a jam, Like Newton, RG3, etc..  what I am leery of is putting Haskins in mid-season. The assumption is the train is off the rails. I’d hate to throw Haskins in there if that occurs. I guess the assumption is the veteran starter is choking badly despite great protection and wide-open receiver(s) AND Haskins has come along very very well. Frankly, I just don’t see that scenario play out. I’m an either or type: either he gets the start (based on a solid camp) or he sits the whole season.  I am leaning on the later but hoping for the prior. 

 

I am also a fan of letting Haskins sit the whole season.  I said mid-season at the very least because I know how impatient Dan and our fan base is, and I think any coach on the hot seat will have a hard time talking the owner out of starting a 1st round QB too early.  Even if he has a solid camp, I would be inclined to let him sit as long as possible this year.

[goskins10]

4 hours ago, Blue Ridger said:

As each day goes by I am liking this Haskins pick less and less. I do not think he has the experience and maturity yet to handle adversity, especially in this market. Would have liked to see another year in college from him. Hope I'm wrong but based on what I've heard and read lately, other teams seemed to have picked up on this which is why no one else had him graded in the 1st. Looks like we once again have crowned ourselves offseason champs

 

Can you please provide verification that Haskins did not have a 1st rd grade not a single other NFL teams board? Unless you have some kind of serious access to all the 31 teams, you cannot make that statement. You can choose to agree with someone making a guess and that's fine. 

 

However, there are mountains of people that disagree so I would be genuinely interested in seeing the data that shows all the other teams did not have Haskins rated as a 1st rd pick. 

 

But even if you do not like the Haskins pick (I already said it's not my favorite pick), the rest of the teams draft was pretty good. Again, can you elaborate and provide validation and any other issues you have with this years draft?  

 

 

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, JoeJacobyHOForRIOT said:

I remember last year when we drafted Guice many , MANY people here said the Giants got the second best running back in the draft in Barkley, Alot of people predicted he would be another Reggie Bush...... Will be interesting to see a healthy Guice take the field and see if my ES Brethren are right and he is better than Saquon who was unreal last season.. Fingers crossed  

 

The difference here is that Barkley was the pick that has the most physical ability - I think people looking at Guice and saying he was a better back had on burgundy colored glasses. Which is not to say that Guice will not/could not turn out to be a really really good back.

 

Here Haskins is clearly the more physically gifted passer when compared to Jones. It takes a very blue tint on your glasses to look at Jones as a passer and think he is superior to Haskins in that regard. Which does not mean Jones can not turn out to be a good NFL QB.

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

The difference here is that Barkley was the pick that has the most physical ability - I think people looking at Guice and saying he was a better back had on burgundy colored glasses. Which is not to say that Guice will not/could not turn out to be a really really good back.

 

Here Haskins is clearly the more physically gifted passer when compared to Jones. It takes a very blue tint on your glasses to look at Jones as a passer and think he is superior to Haskins in that regard. Which does not mean Jones can not turn out to be a good NFL QB.

hmm yes,  very interesting and i agree

[goskins10]

Seems the concern about #7 was all for nothing. The primary paragraph is: 

 

"I just got off the phone with Dwayne just a little while ago, and I told him it was OK to wear No. 7," Theismann said, via the radio station's website. "I've given him permission. Not that I feel like I needed to, but he was respectful enough to ask.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001029306/article/dwayne-haskins-gets-theismann-blessing-to-wear-no-7

[RandyHolt]

5 hours ago, JaxJoe said:

Very sensible, especially regarding other rookie QBs having the legs to get them out of a jam, Like Newton, RG3, etc..  what I am leery of is putting Haskins in mid-season. The assumption is the train is off the rails. I’d hate to throw Haskins in there if that occurs. I guess the more favorable assumption is the veteran starter is choking badly despite great protection and wide-open receiver(s) AND Haskins has come along very very well. Frankly, I just don’t see that scenario play out. I’m an either or type: either he gets the start (based on a solid camp) or he sits the whole season.  I am leaning on the later but hoping for the prior. 

 

As per usual, good post.  Yep Week 8.... sadly by then we need to expect the OL to be decimated by injury. The team possibly in free fall.  Not the best red carpet to roll out.

 

With no proof whatsoever, I feel like coaches wait to put in their rookie QB, just because they had seen that done their entire playing and coaching career.  Amidst all those years we saw QB after QB fail. Predictably, starting in week 4, coaches wait for an INT or 2, and then trot out the new kid in the 2nd half.   At that point, coaches aren't coaching, they're more looking for failures. Waiting for it look it to look like there was a legit reason to put the kid in, when actually the fact they were even drafted, is reason enough.  Sit folk will point to KC and Mahomes, but I call bunk that he wouldn't have done very well his rookie year. He didn't get in after week 4 because Alex had the season of his lifetime. I bet their fans would have rather had Mahomes in the playoffs over Alex.

 

That's the wrinkle I don't like, is if our soon to be backup cough starter is doing well and the offense is near playoff grade.... coaches won't make that switch.  At that point we will hear that not playing is the best thing for him, and I will still call bunk. 

 

It mostly comes down to Jay's playbook, when its best to start him. Not wait for a Case INT, which believe me, he will go through great lengths to not happen. Call it KC Avoid Int Disease.

[goskins10]

3 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

The difference here is that Barkley was the pick that has the most physical ability - I think people looking at Guice and saying he was a better back had on burgundy colored glasses. Which is not to say that Guice will not/could not turn out to be a really really good back.

 

Here Haskins is clearly the more physically gifted passer when compared to Jones. It takes a very blue tint on your glasses to look at Jones as a passer and think he is superior to Haskins in that regard. Which does not mean Jones can not turn out to be a good NFL QB.

 

For me I thought and still believe that Guice is the better runner where Barkley was the better all around back.  The differences between the two are very small not huge. 

 

Both RBs are very talented. But for me, when i watched their college games and breakdowns, Guice seems to have a bit better vision and a able to create holes a little better than Barkley. Bit Barkley understands and can execute pass plays a little bit more effectively - although they never really asked Guice to do that much. When they did - like in the Notre Dame Bowl game he scored twice on pass plays. 

 

But it really is splitting hairs. If I were the Giants last year and I decided to take a RB, I likely would have taken Barkley also as I think he translates to a more complete back right away. But it's not like we ended up with crumbs. Guice is also a very gifted RB.

 

The differences between Jones and Haskins, at least athletically and production wise is huge. One number tells a pretty big story - as starters, Haskins, 50Tds in one season, Jones 52 in 3 seasons. May not be the whole story but wow it stands out. 

[bowhunter]

Cousins seemed to mature the fastest each time he was pulled out. Whenever he got the deer in the headlights look, he would be asked to sit and allow that moment to digest for a few games. Perhaps it's OK to let the kid work until if/when he looks overwhelmed, then let him sit to digest it. Maybe we will all be pleasantly surprised. I'd be OK with allowing his play to tell us when is too soon.

While Not every Sinker learns to swim, not every Swimmer  had to sink first.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

The differences between Jones and Haskins, at least athletically and production wise is huge. One number tells a pretty big story - as starters, Haskins, 50Tds in one season, Jones 52 in 3 seasons. May not be the whole story but wow it stands out. 

 

Be careful looking at numbers in evaluation.

 

Yes, they exist for a reason. But sometimes that reason isn't as clear cut as anyone thinks it is.

 

Lots of factors:

 

Individual skill, system, surrounding talent, play calling, luck, opposing talent, opposing execution, score of the games played in, etc.

 

Stats, on their head, never tell a full story (which you elude to, to be fair). I see so many people leaning on them, though (not you), that it's a little alarming.

[Riggo#44]

3 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

I think at best, she is working with incomplete info. Certainly not enough to form a concrete opinion over

 

 

Probably not--and all of this is moot. We can debate until we're blue in the face, it doesn't matter until he's on the field throwing passes.

[goskins10]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Be careful looking at numbers in evaluation.

 

Yes, they exist for a reason. But sometimes that reason isn't as clear cut as anyone thinks it is.

 

Lots of factors:

 

Individual skill, system, surrounding talent, play calling, luck, opposing talent, opposing execution, score of the games played in, etc.

 

Stats, on their head, never tell a full story (which you elude to, to be fair). I see so many people leaning on them, though (not you), that it's a little alarming.

 

I realize that of course which I specially stated it does not tell the whole story. 

 

But Ok, when I look at all those things I do not see it even being close. The only thing I give Jones the edge on - and it's not unimportant by any means - is experience. He has 3 years experience as a starter compared to Haskins 1. This shows when Haskins is forced to create when blocking breaks down. he is not very good passing the ball outside the numbers where Jones is a bit better. Haskins certainly had better talent around him but he played much better talent also. 

 

Overall, i am not in love with either QB, but to my very ordinary eyes Haskins has much more potential than Jones. I could well be proven wrong. Haskins could be this years Demarcus Russel. I hope not but until they play it's all speculation. 

 

 

 

[MartinC]

14 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

The differences between Jones and Haskins, at least athletically and production wise is huge. One number tells a pretty big story - as starters, Haskins, 50Tds in one season, Jones 52 in 3 seasons. May not be the whole story but wow it stands out. 

 

Jones is athletically superior to Haskins. Much better runner and more mobile outside the pocket (though not close to elite in that regard). But in terms of arm talent and ability as a passer working inside the pocket it's just not close. As you say the Haskins production as a passer in one season just about eclipses Jones entire career. Some of that is Ohio State versus Duke - but still ...