FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Heck the people close to Haskins (including Shawn Springs) seem to be screaming for him not to start right away. 

I heard Springs yesterday, but I think it was from a few days back with Sheehan, and he doesn't want him to play this year at all.  "With all due respect" he said that the Skins weapons on the outside are so bad, that he'd get benched for allowing them to catch one pass and that missing Trent Williams is the biggest deal going on in the NFL.  For those reasons, he wouldn't play Haskins at all.

[RandyHolt]

Boy that Case really cemented the starting job!!!!1!

 

In general terms we have no QB.  Which pairs up well with no WR's.

[Burgold]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I wouldn't say this is just a Jay opinion or thing.  Multiple beat guys have said no one in that building thinks Haskins is ready to start the season.   Listening to Haskins, I got doubts that even he wants to start the season as a starter.  He's alluded multiple times that he's still learning the verbiage and everything will flow easier for him once he can do it all automatically.  He also said something to the effect that when he plays he wants to play well from the outset.  He's not flat out said he doesn't want to start but he's heavily hinted that he's not at all averse to waiting until he feels a stronger mastery of the offense.

Oh, I'm not saying he should start the season. I'm not even really saying he should be considered to start the season. What I was saying was that it would be useful to get starter reps in live game action (preseason) just so he could see and the coaches could see how well he can handle it and get one more set of clues of where he needs to grow.

 

I'm fine with him starting and I'm not fine with coddling and shielding him from the harsh realities. If you wait for a perfect scenario or when he's perfectly ready that moment will never arise.

1 minute ago, RandyHolt said:

Boy that Case really cemented the starting job!!!!1!

 

In general terms we have no QB.  Which pairs up well with no WR's.

I think Case is fine in that Mark Brunnell, Alex Smith sort of way. I think he's underappreciated. I think he's a legit NFL QB. I just don't think he's first ballot hall of famer or probowl lock. He's fine to good with occasional flashes of "bless his heart" and "Wow! That was a helluva game."

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I heard Springs yesterday, but I think it was from a few days back with Sheehan, and he doesn't want him to play this year at all.  "With all due respect" he said that the Skins weapons on the outside are so bad, that he'd get benched for allowing them to catch one pass and that missing Trent Williams is the biggest deal going on in the NFL.  For those reasons, he wouldn't play Haskins at all.

 

Yeah I heard that.  I somewhat disagree with Springs on one count.  I think their receivers will be fine, nothing spectacular, but I think they will exceed expectations.  Their O line though is another story.  I think there is a good chance the O line unravels the season for arguably the third year in a row.   I think the O line was overrated even when Trent was here.  But with him gone, it could be a joke on the level of the NY Giants 2016-2017 seasons.    I know Springs voiced concerns about the O line too but I disagree with him highlighting the receivers more. 

 

Haskins stands tall in the pocket and his composure is impressive.   But if he's already contending with learning the playbook, terminology and protections AND a shaky O line then he'd have a lot on his plate if he started the season.

 

7 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Oh, I'm not saying he should start the season. I'm not even really saying he should be considered to start the season. What I was saying was that it would be useful to get starter reps in live game action (preseason) just so he could see and the coaches could see how well he can handle it and get one more set of clues of where he needs to grow.

 

I'm fine with him starting and I'm not fine with coddling and shielding him from the harsh realities. If you wait for a perfect scenario or when he's perfectly ready that moment will never arise.

 

OK, I wanted him to play with the #1's, too.  I gather it's about getting Keenum ready.  Keenum is learning a new system too and had a shaky camp according to many.    I don't think it will be a big deal though as to Haskins development.  Jay has done the main thing I wanted as for Haskins and that is give him a bunch of reps.  I am guessing he's going to get even more next week.  

[RandyHolt]

8 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I think Case is fine in that Mark Brunnell, Alex Smith sort of way. I think he's underappreciated. I think he's a legit NFL QB. I just don't think he's first ballot hall of famer or probowl lock. He's fine to good with occasional flashes of "bless his heart" and "Wow! That was a helluva game."

 

Fair enough. But I expected that he would beat out Colt. Colt is almost a perfect backup, short of the injuries thing.

 

Keenum hangs his hat on that 1 year. Yes it's nothing to scoff at.  But 6 teams in 7 years.... puts my expectations in check real quick.

[DJHJR86]

33 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Start Haskins week one with two vets breathing down his neck and he struggles early and gets benched in favor of said vets and now you've wrecked Haskins's confidence and ****ed up his development.

 

Then you draft another QB, because if that's all it takes is being benched to wreck his confidence, we shouldn't have drafted him to be the future.

[Going Commando]

12 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I call bunk that a player cannot get benched. Guys get benched in all sports. If the reason Haskins would be benched were valid, why would it ruin him. It would help him learn what he needs to work on at the same time being thankful to have had the chance.  All the coach needs to do is communicate in advance,  if you fail or are under extreme duress, I am pulling you back, ok?

 

Sports athletes that cannot handle the mental aspect of being second fiddle can go see a sports psychologist.  Braden Holtby was benched to start the playoffs and then led us to a stanley cup.  He had plenty of chances to win a cup, with no competition.

 

It poisons the well in the HC-QB relationship.  This is not hockey, and you may not think that's the way it should be, but it is.  The smart staffs sit their rookie QBs because if/when they struggle and you have to bench them to keep your season afloat then you have nowhere to go after that.  Patrick Mahomes didn't start until a garbage time game at the end of his rookie year.  Baker Mayfield sat behind Tyrod Taylor for a couple games even though he'd played in college for eight years.

 

If Haskins had lit the world on fire in camp and preseason like Russell Wilson did, that'd be one thing.  But he didn't and he looks raw.

 

Giving a rookie QB who looks this raw the starting job with a trash offensive line and two vets breathing down his neck and a coaching staff that needs to win to keep their jobs is absolutely setting the kid up for failure.  We're not going to start him week one and that's the right call.  You guys are going to have to cool your jets.

4 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Then you draft another QB, because if that's all it takes is being benched to wreck his confidence, we shouldn't have drafted him to be the future.

 

And the Extremeskins braintrust demonstrates their team building savvy once again.

[Redd]

I really liked what I saw from Haskins last game.  Quick decision making and knows where he wants to go with the football. Throws the ball just before receivers get open.  Puts them in places his receivers can make a play on it.  If the receivers didn't have a few crucial drops his stats would look better.  Footwork still needs work though.

[Warhead36]

I will say though that we play some really strong defenses this year, particularly up front, which could massacre our mess of an OL. It might actually be better for Haskins to sit most of if not the entire year.

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am not as pessimistic as the media is (especially the national version of it) as to the season where many seem to think this is one of the worst teams in the NFL.  I am not on the Bruce side of the pendulum either about them "being close".   I think their defense and running game is good enough to keep them in that 8-8 range.  But I still don't think they are going anywhere this season whether with Haskins or Keenum.  And I get you aren't arguing that but doubling down that for that reason make it all about Haskins.  I still think you have to play out some of the string though for veterans on the team to see you are trying to go for it.  And I don't think it hurts but only helps Haskins to sit for some of the season.

 

Theres arguements for and against starting Haskins, and sure that discussion is happening among the players.  Have to ask if veterans are really all in for Case if we talking an 8-8 ceiling, I dont think this is a playoff team if Case starts all 16 games, the lack of talent and eventually injuries will stop that jus like last year.

 

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Why not give Haskins the benefit of watching Keenum prepare week in and week out for lets say 6 weeks or so?   As for veterans, I've not heard anyone clamor for Haskins to start.  We've heard Peterson push Colt.  And if I recall another player pushed Keenum early in camp?  Maybe it was V. Davis but I am struggling to recall.   I don't see veterans preferring to work with a rookie.  I recall Santana once talk about this from a receiver point of view which is that he much preferred playing with veterans than younger guys who were finding their way because he can rely on the veterans to at least run the play the way it was designed whereas with rookies they might get it wrong.  

 

I honestly believe at this point the reason why Jay isnt prioritizing developing Haskins over having a winning season is because having a losing season this year for any reason will cost him his job.  Hes acting like a coach who hasnt been given the green light to focus on Haskins and his job will be safe if he misses the playoffs.  At this point Jay is doing what's best for him, not the franchise because the franchise hasnt given him the green light.  The thing is, he will lose his job regardless if he fails to develop a second first round QB here, catch-22.

 

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I do agree with your point about developing Haskins is priority #1.  I also agree with play him this year.  But don't see any downside  and only upside to sit for a third of the season or so.   I'd gather Jay would know when Haskins is ready.   Heck the people close to Haskins (including Shawn Springs) seem to be screaming for him not to start right away.  Ditto the dude with the biggest man crush on Haskins, Louis Reddick. 

 

At this point I feel like I'm repeating myself, but genuinely concerned that by time Haskins goes in there, the team will be decimated by injuries and the arguement will be to sit him the whole year to protect him.  Dudes a professional, hes not a child, at what point do you accept that no matter what hes going to get hit and he needs to learn how to deal with that and practice preventing it?  

 

The further this goes along, the less mad and accepting of this I am.  We've seen guys put out there and look horrible and still turn out fine, some even going to the HOF.  If the real concern is him getting hit, what are we gonna do once were on our 7th or 8th oline change and then throwing Haskins out there for his first game? We all know that what's coming taking this path...

 

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Start Haskins week one with two vets breathing down his neck and he struggles early and gets benched in favor of said vets and now you've wrecked Haskins's confidence and ****ed up his development.

 

Only a HC told to prioritize this season over the entire career of their franchise QB would do that.  The window isnt closing for this team, only reason we have one is because of Haskins.

[volsmet]

In practice DH has coaches planning to test his weaknesses, whereas in the preseason, there is no defensive game plan at all. I assume DH is struggling with certain things in practice that we don’t see in the preseason ... right now bad QBs are putting up great numbers in the preseason, but DH is proving he’s putting in the work with advanced timing & understanding of where the ball is supposed to go. 

 

I wouldn’t consider starting him until we sorted out the line, but I’m having a great time watching him develop. I also have to credit Jay & his staff with the positive early results for our young QB.

 

I wonder if DH will always throw the fade away passes when he’s feeling a little rushed up the middle with an intermediate read, he did it several time last night and it looks to lower his release at times & certainly gives the dl an added indicator to get their hands up ... that habit looks ingrained fairly thoroughly. Reminds me of Jeff Bagwell.

 

[RandyHolt]

Good stuff Vols as per usual

 

Jeff TBag, Bagwell?

 

 

 

[volsmet]

The beautiful fade away hitter, that man would be a heck of a problem in 1 v 1 limbo, I loved watching him lean back & load up for swings meant to inflict maximum damage. 

[DJHJR86]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

And the Extremeskins braintrust demonstrates their team building savvy once again.

 

You keep saying Case Keenum and Colt McCoy are "breathing down" Haskins' neck.  If the competition is close between a raw rookie quarterback with no NFL experience and 2 veterans with multiple games of NFL experience, what does that say about those 2 veterans?  They should start Haskins, but they won't.

[HigSkin]

 

[Renegade7]

Here's a question: what if Case gets hurt, does it matter if Haskins is ready at that point?  Hes going out there anyway, right?

[RandyHolt]

10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Here's a question: what if Case gets hurt, does it matter if Haskins is ready at that point?  Hes going out there anyway, right?

 

Hell yeah. Folks that abhor the idea of him playing may not realize he is one play away from playing, anyways.

 

He is raw but finished products aren't good.  if his quick release mitigates the hit count, as it should theoretically via the Dan Marino playbook, it will help him survive whenever he gets in. We can want the preferred OL to get firmed up before sending him out, but the week we do send him out, an OL could get injured and another backup already forced in before that. So we ended up waiting for a worse OL situation than now and our top guys, just not gelled yet.

 

[volsmet]

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Here's a question: what if Case gets hurt, does it matter if Haskins is ready at that point?  Hes going out there anyway, right?

 

If Case gets hurt early you run an abbreviated version of your playbook. 

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

And the Extremeskins braintrust demonstrates their team building savvy once again.

 

Agreed.

 

I don't understand the mentality of "needing to start him".

 

Anyone who watched Haskins college reps knew he had a ton of work to do, but had a ton of upside. 

 

He has a very high ceiling. But he's no where near that ceiling. Case (and Colt) are better quarterbacks right now. They just are. Starting Haskins just because is a recipe for disaster.

 

And the whole, "if he starts then gets benched and it ruins his career, he was a terrible pick and we need to take another QB" mindset is straight poison. This is real life. Not some fantasy land. Rookies are unsure of themselves for the most part. Not all. But a lot. Especially ones who weren't universally praised coming in. Especially ones that have to prove something. That doesn't mean they have no confidence. That doesn't mean they don't believe they can succeed or in their abilities... But they overthink everything. They know when they make mistakes that media and fans are going to jump on them. You put a rookie QB in the game, with a poor line and a live pass rush and you are looking to damage him and the franchise.

 

He has not shown he is ready as a NFL quarterback. And that's okay. All of us realized he'd need work.

 

I've said this time and time again: The best quarterback should play. Right now that's not Haskins. Haskins isn't even the second best QB on the roster right now. Again, that's okay. Why risk his career?

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, volsmet said:

 

If Case gets hurt early you run an abbreviated version of your playbook. 

Bingo, so why not do that week 1?  At no point is he going to master the playbook this year anyway, most QBs say it takes about 2-3 years to fully master an offense.

[KDawg]

10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Here's a question: what if Case gets hurt, does it matter if Haskins is ready at that point?  Hes going out there anyway, right?

 

Different scenario and it wildly changes expectations. You are a spark plug forced into action vs. the relied upon starting quarterback. It changes the player's mentality.

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Different scenario and it wildly changes expectations. You are a spark plug forced into action vs. the relied upon starting quarterback. It changes the player's mentality.

 

You can clarify that mentality week 1, I dont believe FO is letting Jay do that.

[RandyHolt]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

 Why risk his career?

 

Fair points, and he indeed does not have to start week 1.

 

But if playing him is risking his career, he probably shouldn't even be a game day backup, as he seems poised to be if the season starts today.  Lets say Colt is out for the first few weeks - hardly a stretch. Do you think we need to get a backup QB we can sacrifice - bring in Sanchez for a few weeks?  Flowers looks wildly inconsistent and bet overall the OL will be shaky in pass pro for a few weeks.  If not, we are taking a big risk that he may have to play, if the risk is that high for his career.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Fair points, and he indeed does not have to start week 1.

 

But if playing him is risking his career, he probably shouldn't even be a game day backup, as he seems poised to be if the season starts today.  Lets say Colt is out for the first few weeks - hardly a stretch. Do you think we need to get a backup QB we can sacrifice - bring in Sanchez for a few weeks?  Flowers looks wildly inconsistent and bet overall the OL will be shaky in pass pro for a few weeks.

 

I don't. I replied to another post above, right after this last reply I made.

 

Mentally, being forced into action by an injury is much different than being THE guy. And it's different from a media perspective, too. If you start day 1, you are the best QB on the roster and there are expectations. If you are a rookie, who is raw, and you start day one those expectations will never be lifted. If you are a rookie, who is raw, and you're on the bench day one it's viewed as protecting an asset who needs some time to develop. If you are forced in the game you are then given some leeway (as long as there are positives, if you are an absolute dumpster fire that's a little different). 

 

Whether it should or shouldn't be the case is largely irrelevant. It is the case. And media DOES influence a player's career (sometimes in a great way, sometimes not). It also clouds perception of a player by anyone in any organization who reads the reports as well as game day fans who don't understand much about the game. Try being a rookie QB, who is starting, who there are expectations on starting 0-4 and being in a store and having fans heckle the **** out of you.

 

See, if after awhile, that doesn't get to even the most confident person and influence their mentality.

[DJHJR86]

29 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Here's a question: what if Case gets hurt, does it matter if Haskins is ready at that point?  Hes going out there anyway, right?

 

Another question: what if Case completely sucks and Gruden is in danger of losing the locker room?  The offensive line is going to be the same (assuming health) regardless of whether or not it's week 1 or whatever week Keenum gets inevitably benched.  Which makes sitting Haskins crazy to me.