FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[sportjunkie07]

6 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Talent they’re both extremely similar with most reports saying Mccoy has the stronger arm (admittedly, I have no clue and only basing it off of player responses when asked questions). 

 

It’s hard to argue Colt over Case when comparing careers, but Colts experience in the system and similar talent tips the scale his way for me. I’m not bullish on it or anything, just prefer it at this stage, but who knows, that may change. 

 

 I root for value in each season, wanting each game to matter until week 17 and bonus football, that’s a successful year for me. I feel there’s less of a chance of magic to take place this season with Keenum— With Colt, you have a tremendous amount of familiarity and kinship that may lend itself to having surprise 9-10 win season. 

 

Again, I’m not standing on much to support my position, just the gut feel I have heading into the year. 

They have some similar attributes I agree. 

 

Keenum doesn't have the greatest arm but it is better than mccoys. I don't care what people claim, what I've seen in game (since college) tells me otherwise.

 

Keenum is actually pretty good when on the move and playaction will suit him well. Keenum steps up in the pocket better imo. They both can put nice touch on the ball but keenum is better at leading his receivers to YAC. They are about equal running the ball though colt is more agile while doing so. Case is also less injury prone. 

 

Case is just the better qb overall. What he needs is more time in the system and to develop chemistry with his receivers.

 

I don't know if that will happen but there is a small chance we see a 2017 vikings situation. A team led by a strong defense with an overachieving air attack and a multifaceted strong run game. 

 

And colt is currently hurt anyways entertaining starting him or even wasting reps on him atm is a waste anyways. 

 

 

 

[Conn]

I'd feel a lot more confident in a potential 2017 Vikings redux if we had anything approaching Theilen and Diggs at WR. And after that season the Vikings preferred giving a record-breaking fully guaranteed deal to Cousins over trying again with Keenum (not saying they were right on this, as it's not working out with Kirk either--but they clearly weren't comfortable with Keenum either). 

[skinzplay]

With Keenum, you need a perfect storm of exemplary coaching and an arsenal of offensive weapons. Whoever hired Rattay or thought he was ready to be a QB coach in the NFL, let alone the primary whisperer to a 1st-round QB who needs developing, should be fired. We're going to stunt Haskins' development if Rattay is allowed to continue in his current capacity. This is not the guy you want determining the trajectory of the QB you hope will be the future.

[Conn]

12 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

With Keenum, you need a perfect storm of exemplary coaching and an arsenal of offensive weapons. Whoever hired Rattay or thought he was ready to be a QB coach in the NFL, let alone the primary whisperer to a 1st-round QB who needs developing, should be fired. We're going to stunt Haskins' development if Rattay is allowed to continue in his current capacity. This is not the guy you want determining the trajectory of the QB you hope will be the future.

 

I don't know if he was the most qualified available or not (almost assuredly not given our coach hiring practices under Allen)...but why is a guy on a message board so sure he knows how qualified a random semi-experienced position coach in the NFL is or isn't? You have no idea what kind of coach he is or what goes on in the meeting rooms or on the practice field, coaching-wise. Right? 

 

Trust me, I am not one to advocate for the competency of this team, even over message board posters. I just truly want to know why you feel so informed and negative about this QB coach specifically. Louisiana Tech fan, where he coached nobody QBs the last couple years?

[skinzplay]

Few people on a message board can be sure about others' qualifications or the real motivations behind the decisions of coaches or a FO. Most often, it's pure speculation. Sometimes it's based on other information you don't share on a message board. And, of course, much of it is nothing more than a fan's opinion. I'll leave it to you and others to determine the merits of my missives here. I have no axe to grind; just love the Skins and hate to see this stuff happening over and over. Joe Barry didn't feel pressure, he applied pressure. Now we've entrusted the development of a QB to Tim Rattay. Well, let's just say it's a good thing he was a backup in Tampa. Otherwise, he wouldn't even be in the league coaching in any capacity. He has tried.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

My take from watching Colt and Keenim

 

Keenum has the better arm ( i get some are now saying the opposite but some do agree with me who watched camp including Brian Mitchell) Neither one though has a strong arm.

Colt is better than Keenum at leading the receiver or at least that was the case with the ton of throws I've watched both throw to the flat. It wasn't even close on this front at least in the practices I watched.  Keenum was a bit erratic and the receivers often had to turn back to catch the ball. 

Colt has better touch on the ball

Keenum has the better deep ball

Keenum is better at rolling out/boots and shows more sneaky athleticism

 

Looking at their career

 

Keenum is more clutch than Colt

They both are turnover prone but Colt is distinctly more turnover prone

They both can show gunslinger tendencies but Colt more so

 

Especially with our O line protecting them, I think this is going to be a slighter better version of the Rex-Beck season in 2011 unless somehow Keenum rediscovers 2017 form. Some say you want a QB that gives you a chance every game.  To me both guys put us as the under dog in just about every game.  In almost every game we will have the inferior QB in all likelihood.  For example, even the games that are supposedly gimmies like the one against Miami and NY.  Are we really going to have slam dunk the better QB?  It actually might be the opposition.  The irony for me is the last time we played Miami in Miami (I was there) the Dolphins weren't that good.  But Rex did his INT thing and we lost. 

 

For this season to stay afloat, the defense has to win these games with help from the running game IMO.  I like the potential of the WRs more than most.  But I think likely subpar QB play and O line play will likely submarine the season.  Teams can survive weaknesses but if the weakness is QB-O line that's IMO the biggest hole any ship can have. 

 

 

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Game day! Let’s do it tonight young Fella.!

[JSSkinz]

IMO this is the perfect opportunity to start Haskins, give him a quarter or so with the starters and then let Case play the entire 1st half of game 3.

 

With Colt out of the way it opens things up a bit.

 

 

[RandyHolt]

I want to see a ton of Haskins tonight. Even if Colt was healthy Jay wouldn't give him significant reps so what's the point of a series anyways.  At least Jay finally won an opener so maybe the worm has turned.   I would be fine if Jay give Case a big test but I am sure Jay remains committed to Colt as his starter (and DH to sit most of the year) so in his mind Case doesn't need first team reps. 

 

I continue to embrace the Arizona model. If Haskins does good with the 1s in preseason and Case and Colt are only better based on experience get Dwayne in sooner than later. Play our young QB and if things don't work out we have tanked into a good draft slot, and can then trade him and draft another QB if needed.  No matter what we got Dwayne the experience he SORELY lacks.

 

Our next coach (OCKOC aside) may want their own QB anyways.  I feel confident in saying a new head coach will not be enamored with a kid with only 1 year of college and no pro experience.  He'll face an awful lot of expectations tethered to a kid with almost no experience to the point that he probably won't even take the job.

 

Drafting a QB on average once every 5 years simply hasn't worked out for us.  

[wit33]

7 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

I'd feel a lot more confident in a potential 2017 Vikings redux if we had anything approaching Theilen and Diggs at WR. And after that season the Vikings preferred giving a record-breaking fully guaranteed deal to Cousins over trying again with Keenum (not saying they were right on this, as it's not working out with Kirk either--but they clearly weren't comfortable with Keenum either). 

 

Whole season offensively is on Reed playing at an elite level for 12-14 games, and most likely needing 14. There’s a different energy around his health and level play this off season versus last season, so hopefully this trend continues. 

 

Reed combined with Richardson stretching the field might just be enough to reach average levels offensively. 

 

The Skins will run the ball a lot, but it’s effectiveness will need to be aided by Reed and Richardson. 

 

6 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

I don't know if he was the most qualified available or not (almost assuredly not given our coach hiring practices under Allen)...but why is a guy on a message board so sure he knows how qualified a random semi-experienced position coach in the NFL is or isn't? You have no idea what kind of coach he is or what goes on in the meeting rooms or on the practice field, coaching-wise. Right? 

 

Trust me, I am not one to advocate for the competency of this team, even over message board posters. I just truly want to know why you feel so informed and negative about this QB coach specifically. Louisiana Tech fan, where he coached nobody QBs the last couple years?

 

Rams disagree. 

 

Going to get weird for some if Kevin O gets a head coaching job. 

 

I hear you though, Skins have been overall average the last 5 years with Bruce in charge. Nothing to write home about. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 lot of detail in that article, worth a read

 

...To be clear, Haskins wants to start Week 1, but he’s going to have to beat out Keenum and McCoy (who’s still dealing with issues from his broken leg suffered in December). However Haskins had to wait his turn for the starting job in college, so he’s ready for any outcome to Washington’s quarterback derby, now in its final days. And just as important, in each scenario, there’s a plan that he’s executed before.

 

He and the rest of the Redskins are going to know soon, since Gruden has said he hopes to make a decision after the third week of the preseason. Washington hosts Cincinnati in the second week of the preseason and goes to Atlanta for the third exhibition game, and then it will be decision time.

 

...Snap-to-setup. Gruden liked Haskins’s demeanor in the pocket coming out and how tall he stood back there. But because he played almost exclusively from the shotgun in college, there’s absolutely been a learning curve with his footwork. And like any quarterback, there’s been work to do on what happens before the snap, too.

“Matching up your feet with the play concept, whether it’s play-action, seven-step drop, maybe it’s a quick five, three-step drop out of the ’gun, maybe it’s a rock-and-throw, quick five out of the ’gun,” Gruden says. “We’re just making sure we keep hammering those down so the feet match the concept of the play, so we can anticipate throws and be on time, and not late to certain things, or too early to certain things. And then also handling the protections, we change protections at the line a lot in this day and age, audibles and all that.

 

“He’s learned a lot and done a lot so far. There’s a lot more we can do but I’ve been impressed what he’s been able to do so far in being able to retain it.”

 

...“This is a one-year business,” Gruden says. “We have to figure out ways to be productive now. Landon Collins and these guys didn’t come here to try and develop a quarterback. They’re here to win, and whoever gives us the best chance to win will do it. And if that’s Dwayne, and we have to get him ready, so be it.”

 

For his part, Haskins feels ready for either outcome, mostly because neither would be new.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/08/15/washington-redskins-miami-dolphins-quarterback-battles-ryan-fitzpatrick-josh-rosen-dwayne-haskins?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=themmqb

[volsmet]

2 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Play our young QB and if things don't work out we have tanked into a good draft slot, and can then trade him and draft another QB if needed. 

 

Losses are wins if a SB is the ultimate goal. We aren’t a contender, we need elite talent, we need to lose. 

 

Tom Brady wouldn’t take this team anywhere, DH won’t, Case won’t, Colt won’t. If we can protect DH, the experience is what gets us a step closer to a SB ... we will know if he’s got a chance, or not, only with experience. He can only gain meaningful experience if he’s healthy. The game can’t slow down while you’re getting hit - the guy can’t learn from the film if he’s hit before the routes develop. If we can’t protect him, he has to sit, imo. If he’s not ready, he needs to sit, obviously.

 

But, the best thing that could happen for our Skins would be ... DH playing a healthy 12-16 games, getting a top 3 draft pick, and heading into 2020 with a year for DH to work on his weaknesses (which he will obsess over, Peyton style). If DH can get through his rookie year, with enough positives to have the staff believing in him ... and Then you get him a #1 WR target like Jeudy ... and add Bryce Love to the backfield... suddenly the game is infinitely easier in year 2 than it was in year one & we see if DH can take the next step before we need to make any decision on him.

 

You give DH experience on a team that has 1/8th of its cap on the IR, with no legitimate #1 or #2 WRs, experience getting plenty of snaps with the young guys like TM, an off-season to grow, and then add a guy like Jeudy ....then ... year 2 has a chance to be pretty special. TM takes the next step along with DH, and we have 2 starting WRs & a QB on rookie contracts headed into Smiths final year....get a first for Trent, move on from that money, & we start to see huge potential, to compete for a title, in 2021. 

 

That’s the most realistic timeline for Washington.... I think it would be plenty exciting, even with the losses, if DH is able to prove enough to keep that path open to us.

 

 

———

Excellent article, Sip.

 

Match up the feet to the play concept - the struggle, imo, are the feet when the concept is interrupted. 

[Warhead36]

I'd be okay with starting Haskins and just letting him take his lumps if the OL wasn't gonna be such a sieve.

[RandyHolt]

Random thought

 

“Matching up your feet with the play concept, whether it’s play-action, seven-step drop, maybe it’s a quick five, three-step drop out of the ’gun, maybe it’s a rock-and-throw, quick five out of the ’gun,

 

It just seems overly complicated, especially being right at the LOS getting immediately chased by blitzing backers and unblocked DTs - counting steps running backwards facing sideways chin on shoulder just ain't going to develop a QB much.  If that stuff is so imperative, how do even marginal QBs seem to do so well out of shotgun? It would seem they should be lost without counting steps at every snap.  Offenses and the passing game in particular, grounded. 

 

It seems like Dwayne is a student of the game very driven to make himself the best he can be, which should aid in transitioning from gun to hands all up in the centers Samaje Perineum. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

15 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I'd be okay with starting Haskins and just letting him take his lumps if the OL wasn't gonna be such a sieve.

 

Were you having visions of Patrick Ramsey getting crushed in Spurrier's offense ?

[Llevron]

33 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

hands all up in the centers Samaje Perineum. 

 

I appreciate you lol

[volsmet]

25 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Random thought

 

“Matching up your feet with the play concept, whether it’s play-action, seven-step drop, maybe it’s a quick five, three-step drop out of the ’gun, maybe it’s a rock-and-throw, quick five out of the ’gun,

 

It just seems overly complicated, especially being right at the LOS getting immediately chased by blitzing backers and unblocked DTs - counting steps running backwards facing sideways chin on shoulder just ain't going to develop a QB much.  If that stuff is so imperative, how do even marginal QBs seem to do so well out of shotgun? It would seem they should be lost without counting steps at every snap.  Offenses and the passing game in particular, grounded. 

 

It seems like Dwayne is a student of the game very driven to make himself the best he can be, which should aid in transitioning from gun to hands all up in the centers Samaje Perineum. 

 

Like Peyton & Brady’s - DH isn’t a natural athlete - the less athletic you are, the more imperative it becomes to have precise footwork at this level. Brady & Peyton work on their drops all year long, Peyton used to go to Duke in the summers to work on drills with Cut - it’s a rhythm aligned with the design of the play, get the feet to touch ...1,2,3,4,5 and the hips get to their spot on the fifth & you rip it... it’s aimed at simplifying by keeping simple tasks meshed that get you to your spot without having to think about it anything. More athletic QBs can make more consistently accurate passes without the foundation being as rigid; athleticism isn’t about speed, it’s about the natural movement of the body. We want Haskins to drop because being under center holds the LBs longer & Grudens scheme is all about the middle of the field - which is most easily exploited when LBs are out of position due to pa....pa is most effective from under center... those extra steps in the fake hold the LBs an extra split second & gives the WRs/TEs an extra split second to get to the spots in the middle of the field while the LBs are reading the line/qb/rb.

 

1 minute ago, Llevron said:

 

I appreciate you lol

 

The chode is no laughing matter.

[sportjunkie07]

56 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

..pa is most effective from under center... those extra steps in the fake hold the LBs an extra split second & gives the WRs/TEs an extra split second to get to the spots in the middle of the field while the LBs are reading the line/qb/rb.

Your oline has to protect longer as well. With our oline, that isn't a given. I expect multiple times this year that the qb is going to get crushed exiting the playaction. 

[RandyHolt]

1 hour ago, sportjunkie07 said:

Your oline has to protect longer as well. With our oline, that isn't a given. I expect multiple times this year that the qb is going to get crushed exiting the playaction. 

 

That's one reason I am intrigued by heavy gun for Haskins should he get the early nod.  A quick passing offense with heavy gun should help keep the jersey clean.

 

Let's review my annual arguments

 

• Familiarity with gun should go a long ways to easing him in. 
• Starting every play 4 yards away from the roid raged defenders ready to destroy him at every single snap.
• Squatting under center at the LOS does not provide a good pre-snap view of the the D vs standing in gun
• His hands won't be "tainted" from the pungent scent of hands under center.
• Less telegraphing of passes when using heavy gun.
• Buys him time to learn speed of the game in a safer environment, adding footwork as he progresses.

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

The chode is no laughing matter.

 

I dont know what this means and Im at work so im afraid to google it on the off chance it has anything to do with putting your hands inside someone 😶

[sportjunkie07]

55 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

One reason I am intrigued by heavy gun for Haskins should he get the early nod.  A quick passing offense with heavy gun should help keep the jersey clean.

 

Let's review my annual arguments

 

• Familiarity with gun should go a long ways to easing him in. 
• Starting every play 4 yards away from the roid raged defenders ready to destroy him at every single snap.
• Squatting under center at the LOS does not provide a good pre-snap view of the the D vs standing in gun
• His hands won't be "tainted" from the pungent scent of hands under center.
• Less telegraphing of passes when using heavy gun.
• Buys him time to learn speed of the game in a safer environment, adding footwork as he progresses.

Can't say I disagree. Wish we tailored our offense a bit more to player strengths. 

[RandyHolt]

47 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I dont know what this means and Im at work so im afraid to google it on the off chance it has anything to do with putting your hands inside someone 😶

 

You definitely do NOT want to google tainted love, either

 

It's a real pickle for Jay.  Ft Colt or Case to save his job.  Or, focus on heavily teaching Dwayne the proper footwork needed to excel in his default preferred offensive concepts.  

 

Dare I think a raw Dwayne forced into a vet playbook may provide Jay as good a chance to go 7-9 as the other 2 lets be reality.... journeymen.  It may get dismissed as insignificant but when he gets in there and used to his strengths in a simple playbook, defenses may be on their heels since they will see a Jay playbook they are not prepared for. Kind of how Philly used Foles/RPO and won the bowl. 9-7 seems within reach if injuries don't cripple our team.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

If Dwayne Haskins plays well tonight.  I'm inclined to have him as the starter.

 

Let's look at Mitch Trubisky, who was drafted 3rd overall yet was a worse prospect than Haskins.  Haskins has some issues with footwork upon later reads, or resetting his feet after moving up in the pocket.  Those issues were terrible at the start of his college season, but got a bit better as the season went on.  Trubisky, it's been pointed out, struggles when throwing to either sideline, but particularly the left.  Haskins isn't Zoolander, he's an ambiturner.

 

Trubisky when throwing to a particular direction:

Left - 146 attempts, 66.4% completions, 1052 yards, 7 TD's, 5 Int's.

Middle - 109 attempts, 70.6% completions, 980 yards, 7 TD's, 2 Int's.

Right -  172 attempts, 66.9% completions, 1191 yards, 10 TD's, 5 Int's.

 

Trubisky's team went 12-4 last season.  He had a great defense to help him, but also had no run game.

 

We probably don't have a great defense, but hopefully a good one.  We should have a much better run game than them.  Is Haskins really going to be that much worse than Trubisky that the team's W/L record looks bad?

 

Edit:  To put this into perspective, look how off some of these throws are:

 

[RandyHolt]

I would be interested to see Tribs numbers throwing left from gun vs under center.

 

I have long theorized it is very difficult for a traditional right hand drop back passer to see/throw to the left side of the field because his body is facing the right sideline as he backs away from A gap intruders. It's not rocket science but I assume coaches consider these things. Yeah they need to keep defenses honest blah blah but when the game is on the line with 1 throw needed to seal the game, go to the strength of the QB.