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We're doomed if we trot out any of those OT's from last night. Christian? It's shocking to me that he has lasted this long. His level of play last night was downright putrid. We need to make something happen and fast. Send Trent to Houston for Tytus Howard and pick.

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11 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Based on all the reports from camp I'm pretty sure the WR depth chart is.

#1. P Rich

#2 Terry

#3 Doctson

#4 C Simms - 1 catch on 2 passes

Slot Quinn -  1 catch on 1 pass

 

Let's see what happens when we get our best players in there with our starting O line.  It has to make a difference. 

 

I think Doctson will start at split end, Richardson at flanker, and Quinn at Y.  I think McLaurin is #4 and will play in all three spots.  I'm not sure Sims is high on the chart.  He played with the threes last night.

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Well it beats watching Mark Sanchez and Josh Johnson.

 

one very ugly INT, also a really bad sack on the DB blitz. Otherwise, he looked decent for his first outing. His first drive could easily have been a quick scoring drive, very unlucky.

 

Bottom line, we had to draft a QB. We didn't reach or blow a **** load of draft picks. Reasonable mid first round investment. Jury will be out for a while yet but I think it's encouraging. 

 

Also, I would personally choose Case over McCoy to start week one.

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I'm glad that his performance did all the talking, speaking directly to the notion that he shouldn't be the Week 1 starter, not by any stretch of the imagination. He has a LOT to learn, and it will best be learned by sitting for quite a while. Having Alex Smith in his ear, helping him to understand certain situations and why certain decisions were made (or should've been made) will help the kid tremendously.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think Doctson will start at split end, Richardson at flanker, and Quinn at Y.  I think McLaurin is #4 and will play in all three spots.  I'm not sure Sims is high on the chart.  He played with the threes last night.

Take it for what it's worth but just yesterday Hoffman said he thinks McLaurin is pushing for a starting position based on his production in camp. 

 

They didn't play him last night so it kind of fits the narrative of waiting until next week before they roll out all of the starters.

 

I'm only forming an opinion based on what these beat guys are saying.

Edited by JSSkinz
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2 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Take it for what it's worth but just yesterday Hoffman said he thinks McLaurin is pushing for a starting position based on camp. 

 

They didn't play him last night so it kind of fits the narrative of waiting until next week before they roll out all of the starters.

 

I'm only forming an opinion based on what these beat guys are saying.

 

I'd like to see him start, personally.  I don't feel like there is a lot of upside in Richardson, and I suspect there is a decent chance that McLaurin is already the best flanker on the team.

 

But I think we also have to temper expectations and remember he's still a rookie.  Thus Richardson probably has the leg up on him for the starting job.

 

I don't love him at the X position, but I think he's an option there if Doctson gets hurt or struggles.  Neither are far fetched scenarios with him.

 

In an ideal season where all of our guys meet their potential, Docston would start at X, McLaurin would start at Z, and Quinn would start at Y with Harmon backing him up and Richardson playing the quick slot role and also playing Z when one of Doctson or McLaurin needs a blow.  That would be everyone playing their best position IMO.  But I'm going to keep my expectations for McLaurin and Harmon low this season.  And I don't particularly have high expectations for the other three guys either.

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13 minutes ago, skinzplay said:

I'm glad that his performance did all the talking, speaking directly to the notion that he shouldn't be the Week 1 starter, not by any stretch of the imagination. He has a LOT to learn, and it will best be learned by sitting for quite a while. Having Alex Smith in his ear, helping him to understand certain situations and why certain decisions were made (or should've been made) will help the kid tremendously. 

 

He definitely shouldn't start week one.  First and foremost, he hasn't earned that right.  But even if he had, the results would be ugly.  When a team has the luxury of sitting their highly drafted QB of the future for a season (or even two), I think it is almost always to the benefit of that player's development.  And when I look at this offensive line and the meager receiving corps, if Haskins plays he's probably just going to be getting beat up without really learning much.  Too many fundamental offensive breakdowns to where he'd barely be playing in anything other than negative situation football.  No time to progress through complexity in the passing game.  Nothing to reinforce patience and good habits and reward excellence of execution.  Best thing to do would be to redshirt him for the year like Ohio State did.

 

But I do think he needs to play a lot in preseason.  I think the coaching staff should consider holding McCoy out entirely and let Haskins play almost all of the final three games.  He needs live-fire repetition in a low stakes situation like preseason.  This is a good opportunity for him to get out there and feel the speed and get hit and make some mistakes.

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I agree. The preseason will do him a whale of good. I want the kid to be successful, and I think success comes as a result of developing a deep understanding of the pro game. That takes time and good tutelage. Smith can be a phenomenal mentor for him, just as he was for Mahomes. Cavanaugh is a very, very good coach, though I'm not sure exactly what his role with the team is now. Rattay has no business being anybody's QB coach in this league. But I guess the Pi Tampa Phi connection has struck again.

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Let's be honest, DH got smacked last night, HARD! If he is a good character guy, he will learn from this and be better for it. Sometimes people need a really good wake up game like this to put the NFL into proper focus. Let's see how he responds.

 

The jury is still out on him, but we all need him to be successful, and soon! Otherwise, it is going to be a LONG season.

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2 minutes ago, rick7423 said:

Let's be honest, DH got smacked last night, HARD! If he is a good character guy, he will learn from this and be better for it. Sometimes people need a really good wake up game like this to put the NFL into proper focus. Let's see how he responds.

 

The jury is still out on him, but we all need him to be successful, and soon! Otherwise, it is going to be a LONG season.

 

Hes not going to be that guy this season homie. And I argue its best for us if he dont push him if hes not. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I think Doctson will start at split end, Richardson at flanker, and Quinn at Y.  I think McLaurin is #4 and will play in all three spots.  I'm not sure Sims is high on the chart.  He played with the threes last night.

 

When I was in camp, I saw Sims with the 3's.  McLaurin with the 1's.  Multiple beat guys right now think McLaurin will start and will beat out either Richardson or Doctson.  There seems to be a debate about whether he plays Z or X.  I keep hearing Sims is at Z.   But I can't recall this much buzz about a camp player in awhile on the level of McLaurin.  I liked McLaurin more than most on the draft thread but I admit even I am surprised at the level of buzz he's getting.  Supposedly, he's a quick study, runs crisp routes, is not only fast but plays fast, strong blocker is catching everything thrown at him - judging by camp buzz he's looking like more of an all around receiver than how he was utilized in Ohio State.  He was great in the 5 practices I watched and commented on it at the time. 

 

Though I admit Sims looked great, too so it escapes me why he's so much further down the depth chart.  The one thing that hits me about Sims is I recall a reporter asked him about his route running and he came off in his answer that he's not a big studier on that front.  He said something like he doesn't think too much about routes but just works to get open or something like that.  And another reporter said he's not the crispest route runner.  So maybe the thing with Sims is he has a ton of talent but the coaching staff doesn't trust him yet on timing routes, etc.

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I don't remember seeing McLaurin, but Harmon got into the game with the third string.

 

I'm a little disappointed that Harmon is so low on the depth chart.  I want to see him as the back up big slot this year behind Quinn.  But if he's third string, it's going to be an uphill battle to make the 53 man roster.

 

As for Harmon, I think it was Hoffman who said he's a lock to make the roster, I guess will see.  I liked what I saw from him in camp.  He's made several highlight catches every week and continually shows up on twitter with an acrobatic type catch that's showcased.  I gather he's not as quick as McLaurin and others at picking up the playbook.  But for me you can see his good hands on display in camp.   But like you say, WRs take time. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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Keenum has a stronger arm than I expected and had a decent night in view of the supporting cast.  I would start Keenum and give Haskins a lot of preseason work with an eye to letting Keenum play out the season if things go well or bring Haskins in for seasoning providing Haskins continues to develop and the Skins fail to stay in the playoff hunt.  That said I think Haskins first game was encouraging.

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I was very critical of the pick.  I thought we should have waited for Tua or Fromm next year.  However, it is what it is and I'm not going to make any rash judgments based on a limited sample size with not a lot of talent around him.  

 

What I liked: 

 

  • - He didn't lose his confidence or his poise.  He made some bonehead mistakes but didn't feel sorry for himself.
  • - He has a live arm but can also put touch on the ball.
  • - He's better outside the pocket than I thought he was.

 

What I didn't like: 

 

- As I mentioned when drafted he is terrible at moving laterally.  He can step up in a pocket but, like RG III, he wants to back up vs a free rusher rather than side-stepping or ducking under.  You want to use the defender's momentum against him - see Russell Wilson.  You ain't outrunning him backwards!!!  Why can't some QB's get that?!?! 

- He has to learn to play with trash at his feet.  You rarely get clean pockets in the NFL.  

- He relies too much on arm strength.  In the west cost offense you should see the QB's feet hitch/change position as they go thru their reads.  That way, if he likes an option then he'll be ready to throw.  On his second int his feet and hips never moved.  They were behind Flannagan instead of repositioning so that he'd be looking down his shoulder that's pointed to where the receiver will be.  Mechanical issue that would take a lot of work to overcome.  But HE MUST fix that or he's done.  

- Predetermined some reads.  You can't decide who to throw to pre-snap.  You can get a good idea but you'll have to base your decision (throw or not) on the post snap read.  The first Int was a case of a predetermined decision to throw the wheel to Marshall.  Still, he could have made it work if he pump fakes to freeze the defender and throws over the top down the sideline.  I chalk that up to being a rookie and something that he can outgrow.

- When the last QB was in he should have been listening to the play calls and watching.  Keenum was.  Never miss an opportunity to learn more about what's going on.  He can learn how the coach thinks so he can begin to anticipate what the coach will call next.  Also, you can learn as much by what a QB does wrong as right.  

 

 

Bottom line:

 

If the season goes south after the first five games, especially if Colt goes down again, then I'm with Cooley on putting in DH.  See what you have in Haskins this year because next year you have some really good QB's coming out and not a lot of teams to compete with in the draft.  

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6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

When I was in camp, I saw Sims with the 3's.  McLaurin with the 1's.  Multiple beat guys right now think McLaurin will start and will beat out either Richardson or Doctson.  There seems to be a debate about whether he plays Z or X.  I keep hearing Sims is at Z.   But I can't recall this much buzz about a camp player in awhile on the level of McLaurin.  I liked McLaurin more than most on the draft thread but I admit even I am surprised at the level of buzz he's getting.  Supposedly, he's a quick study, runs crisp routes, is not only fast but plays fast, strong blocker is catching everything thrown at him - judging by camp buzz he's looking like more of an all around receiver than how he was utilized in Ohio State.  He was great in the 5 practices I watched and commented on it at the time. 

  

Though I admit Sims looked great, too so it escapes me why he's so much further down the depth chart.  The one thing that hits me about Sims is I recall a reporter asked him about his route running and he came off in his answer that he's not a big studier on that front.  He said something like he doesn't think too much about routes but just works to get open or something like that.  And another reporter said he's not the crispest route runner.  So maybe the thing with Sims is he has a ton of talent but the coaching staff doesn't trust him yet on timing routes, etc. 

 

Sims kind of feels like this year's Anthony Mix.  I don't really have any expectations for him.

 

Davis and Harmon are the ones I have hope for, but I'm getting the feeling that Harmon is going to end up on the practice squad unfortunately.

 

I want to see McLaurin win the starting job over Richardson.  He's just better.  Bigger talent in most considerations.  I think this is going to be a rough season and that we might as well go with a youth movement at the WR position.

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10 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Hes not going to be that guy this season homie. And I argue its best for us if he dont push him if hes not. 

I respectfully disagree. He has shown flashes of ability and toughness. The NFL is so different from college in so many ways. It takes time to allow the game to "slow down" (whatever that means) or for him to speed up.

 

Patience, grooming a good QB is like letting a fine wine mature, it takes time.

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The other notable thing Hoffman pointed out was that McLaurin and Simms are much better blockers than P Rich and Doctson.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Sims kind of feels like this year's Anthony Mix.  I don't really have any expectations for him.

 

Davis and Harmon are the ones I have hope for, but I'm getting the feeling that Harmon is going to end up on the practice squad unfortunately.

 

I want to see McLaurin win the starting job over Richardson.  He's just better.  Bigger talent in most considerations.  I think this is going to be a rough season and that we might as well go with a youth movement at the WR position.

 

I think McLaurin has a good shot to win a starting gig.  On the draft thread I said this last off season that I wish I knew more about Doctson the person and had a feel for his intangibles because I think when it comes to judging college players its a big factor and that's not easy for us to know.  I liked Doctson before we drafted him.  McLaurin was touted to death on his intangibles in the draft process including by Urban Meyer.  So he might have that "it" factor as for study habits, character, smarts and desire to be great.  Doctson to me doesn't come off that way.

 

As for Harmon, I'd be shocked if they put him on the practice squad.  If they do, I bet someone takes him.   I don't think he starts but I do think he's going to be a backup.    He's made some really nice catches in camp.  And I've heard no indication that he's a threat not to make the roster.  He was one of the last guys I watched on the draft thread and I was surprisingly impressed.  I wasn't in love with the dude but i liked him and wanted him when he started falling late in the draft.   I've heard plenty though that Doctson might not make it.   

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think McLaurin has a good shot to win a starting gig.  On the draft thread I said this last off season that I wish I knew more about Doctson the person and had a feel for his intangibles because I think when it comes to judging college players its a big factor and that's not easy for us to know.  I liked Doctson before we drafted him.  McLaurin was touted to death on his intangibles in the draft process including by Urban Meyer.  So he might have that "it" factor as for study habits, character, smarts and desire to be great.  Doctson to me doesn't come off that way.

 

As for Harmon, I'd be shocked if they put him on the practice squad.  If they do, I bet someone takes him.   I don't think he starts but I do think he's going to be a backup.    He's made some really nice catches in camp.  And I've heard no indication that he's a threat not to make the roster.  He was one of the last guys I watched on the draft thread and I was surprisingly impressed.  I wasn't in love with the dude but i liked him and wanted him when he started falling late in the draft.   I've heard plenty though that Doctson might not make it.    

 

 

Doctson is the most gifted WR on the team.  I'd be surprised if he got cut.  But I agree that he doesn't seem to have that dog in him.  Still, I don't really believe we have the luxury of cutting talent yet.

 

For Harmon it's a numbers game.  If he's with the third stringers now, that means he's on the bubble.  So let's say McLaurin, Doctson, Richardson, Quinn, and Davis are all firmly ahead of him.  That means Harmon is competing for the final spot with a bunch of other guys.  And since we're carrying three QBs, maybe we only carry five WRs.

 

But I'd also much rather carry only three backs and/or nine OLs to make sure Harmon can get on the 53.  I don't want him getting scooped up off our practice squad either.  We can fiddle with the reserve lists to keep our backs I think, and those back end OLs are trash.  I'd not see us lose a decent WR prospect just to keep a scrub OL in order to have a warm body for a lousy position group.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Me too.  It looks like the worst part of the team by far, although receiver doesn't look good either and the secondary is soft.

 

They couldn't get any runs blocked in the first half.  There was pressure up the middle throughout the game and the left side for the ones was god awful.  That back up RG Kerin flat out sucks, and both of those tackles Parris and Hance were pretty bad too.

 

Unfortunately this is just not a very good group.  This is supposed to be a 9-10 man group and we've got like four guys who are solid NFL players right now.

 

I'm disappointed with how slowly Christian has come along.  I have almost no faith in Flowers.  Bergstrom will do.  I'm hopeful with Martin although I don't think he'll be a good player this year.  And I'd rather see Pierschbacher back up the interior spots than any of the other guys behind Bergstrom.  Other than that, we literally have nothing.  This group is going to be a problem for us this season and our QBs and runningbacks are really going to struggle behind them.  And if Moses or Scherff get hurt, our season will be over.

 

Agree.  The blocked runs actually concerned me the most.  Many here talk about how the running game is going to lead the way this year.  I get the point.  But a shaky O line can thwart that just as much as the passing game.  I see on twitter some giving Perine a hard time for last night but what I saw was him often stuffed right at the line of scrimmage.  When the Browns wanted to stuff the run they could penetrate the A gaps, etc and get it done.   

 

Yeah Timon Parris being a mess was hard to miss.  It pains me since he went to my undergrad alma matter and which doesn't produce many NFL players. 😀  I mentioned this weeks back but I happened to watch camp one day with Trevor Matich right next to me one time and he was openly talking to the fans within earshot about his take of things.  Matich played O line and he considers it his niche.  In short, he wasn't impressed was Flowers or Christian.  I gather he doubled down on that recently because Finlay repeated (before yesterday) that after talking to Matich he's convinced it will be Penn and Martin playing the left side. 

 

I've heard mixed things about Pierschbacher.  One person saying he's better than they expected.  Another saying he's fine but gets pushed back at times easily by our D lineman in one on one exercises.  I saw a clip where Martin was just destroyed by Allen in a one on one exercise.  Though in camp its tough to judge anyone by isolating plays so I take that all with a grain of salt.  When I was there I just about exclusively zoned in on the QBs and WRs. 

 

I agree that if Moses or Scherff get hurt the season is over.  I've been making similar points on the prediction threads.  The O line and its lack of depth could easily derail the season.  As much as some joke about the Giants O line, it actually might be better than ours now.  Gettleman has made plenty of mistakes but they might now have one of the best guard tandems in the league.  Solder isn't great but he's better than anything we got right now at LT.  I am bringing the Giants up because for years people around that team have liked to say you can't really judge their QB and playmakers properly because of the shaky O line.  That narrative could easily be the same here this year. 

 

And I'd add unless Flanagan makes the team its not like our TEs are that hot at helping the blocking.  Our running backs as blockers aren't hot either. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Last night on the post game tv show  one of the tv commentators predicted that Doctson might get cut so we can keep Sims or some other younger receiver.  

No one would care if Josh D were cut.  We have lost game with him for too long.   

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think McLaurin has a good shot to win a starting gig.  On the draft thread I said this last off season that I wish I knew more about Doctson the person and had a feel for his intangibles because I think when it comes to judging college players its a big factor and that's not easy for us to know.  I liked Doctson before we drafted him.  McLaurin was touted to death on his intangibles in the draft process including by Urban Meyer.  So he might have that "it" factor as for study habits, character, smarts and desire to be great.  Doctson to me doesn't come off that way.

 

As for Harmon, I'd be shocked if they put him on the practice squad.  If they do, I bet someone takes him.   I don't think he starts but I do think he's going to be a backup.    He's made some really nice catches in camp.  And I've heard no indication that he's a threat not to make the roster.  He was one of the last guys I watched on the draft thread and I was surprisingly impressed.  I wasn't in love with the dude but i liked him and wanted him when he started falling late in the draft.   I've heard plenty though that Doctson might not make it.   

 

 

 

I'm not all that afraid Harmon wont last on the practice squad.  He went in the 6th round and was the 23rd WR taken, so I suspect the scouting reports around the league werent as bullish as his camp performance might suggest they should have been. 

 

And if he's going to only get garbage time in the preseason, his chances to really impress around the league might be limited.

 

But he's that big target I want Haskins to have available.  

Edited by justice98

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11 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

I thought both Case was worse than Dwayne against interior pressure.  Is that rust?  Is that a sign of things to come?  Don't know.  QB play period (I know Colt didn't play) left this season as no more than 6 wins.  If Case just needs to shake off the rust and perform better in a muddied pocket, then maybe 8 wins is the ceiling.  With Dwayne, it's a "does he get it this game" type of thing.  I think as a rookie, right now, there will absolutely be games he single handedly loses as well as wins for us.  Is what we saw also rust?  Maybe?

 

The problem is that Norval Gruden will never give the starters enough reps in the preseason to even get any single player in a groove, much less the QB's. How many attempts did TB12 have? How many attempts did Keenum have? Hell, how many attempts did Alex Smith have last preseason? Gruden is woefully woeful when it comes to getting this team ready in the preseason.

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6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

Doctson is the most gifted WR on the team.  I'd be surprised if he got cut.  But I agree that he doesn't seem to have that dog in him.  Still, I don't really believe we have the luxury of cutting talent yet.

 

For Harmon it's a numbers game.  If he's with the third stringers now, that means he's on the bubble.  So let's say McLaurin, Doctson, Richardson, Quinn, and Davis are all firmly ahead of him.  That means Harmon is competing for the final spot with a bunch of other guys.  And since we're carrying three QBs, maybe we only carry five WRs.

 

But I'd also much rather carry only three backs and/or nine OLs to make sure Harmon can get on the 53.  I don't want him getting scooped up off our practice squad either.  We can fiddle with the reserve lists to keep our backs I think, and those back end OLs are trash.  I'd not see us lose a decent WR prospect just to keep a scrub OL in order to have a warm body for a lousy position group.

 

I agree about Doctson.  I am only bringing up him getting cut in the context that I hear that about him from time to time (it was brought up again ironically a few minutes ago on the radio from Grant as to what he's heard from some) but no so much Harmon.  But I'd guess Doctson makes the team, too.  

 

Seems like the prevailing thought at least according to beat guys supposedly talking to sources: 

 

Locks:  McLaurin, Richardson, Quinn

Likely: Doctson, Harmon, Sims

Bubble:  Davis (maybe Doctson) 

 

I get the Davis got in there first last night.    But other than that, I keep hearing he's the bubble guy.  Maybe Davis leapfrogged the others and the beat guys are wrong,  I don't know.  It's possible I have some confirmation bias because when I was in camp, Davis didn't stand out.  But I just watched 5 practices so it wasn't the full sample.   

 

My other thing about Harmon is watching the Kyle Smith interview where he gushed about the dude.  He said they talked about Harmon on draft day more than any other prospect.  They toyed with taking him in the 4th and 5th rounds and were shocked and thrilled when was still there in the 6th.  Kyle looked like he was beaming talking about Harmon.  So when I couple that and the series of acrobatic catches he's made in practice some of which I saw in person -- hard for me to see them taking a chance of losing him.  Also adding to the intangible argument, Harmon has been the dude staying after practice working with Norman, etc.  

 

Granted the receiver position is a bit of crap shoot and its easy to fall for players who end up busts.  McCloughan of all people talked about it in an interview recently saying its maybe the hardest position to judge because becoming a polished route runner in the NFL isn't an easy task and its not easy to predict which players adapt quickly to that from college to the NFL.  Harmon could be one of those guys that doesn't make it.  But to me I think he's intriguing enough to keep around and find out.  So I'd be surprised if they end the experiment that fast because I do think practice squad means he ends elsewhere. 

 

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