FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[robotfire]

On 4/26/2019 at 12:15 AM, mammajamma said:

Definitely agree. Nobody cares about speed when the QB is white... But black QBs have to be Mike Vick to be a good QB? It's a terrible double standard

I am honestly glad he's not a runner.  It means he had to use his brain and QB skills to be that good.  Runners tend to rely on that skill, which works great until you face a playoff opponent that knows to put a spy on you or something.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

NFL Draft 2019 Results: Reviewing This Year's Best Value Picks

 

Washington Redskins: Dwayne Haskins, No. 15

 

One could argue Dwayne Haskins is the best quarterback in the class. Kyler Murray has a strong case too, but Haskins is a potential franchise signal-caller who came at a discount. The Washington Redskins should not have been able to net a prospect of his caliber at 15th overall, especially without having to trade up—and they should be elated.

 

Haskins only started one year in college, and the track record for one-year starters is not pretty, but he proved as much as he could in that time. He tossed 50 touchdowns while throwing at a 9.1-yards-per-attempt clip and maintaining a 70 percent completion rate.

 

He was both efficient and dynamic, but what's more impressive is how smart he proved to be. With J.T. Barrett at the helm in previous seasons, Ohio State's passing offense revolved around screens.

 

That was not the case with Haskins. Head coach Urban Meyer and offensive coordinator Ryan Day opened up the attack for their new quarterback, giving him more dropback opportunities and a breadth of options that were not available to Barrett. Haskins proved all year he could make multiple reads, stay conscious of blitzers and safeties, and find the balance between caution and aggression.

 

Washington head coach Jay Gruden, while not on the same pedestal as one of his former offensive coordinators Sean McVay, is quietly one of the league's best offensive minds. Pairing him with a young, intelligent pocket passer could be what finally pushes the Redskins past mediocrity.

 

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2833467-nfl-draft-2019-results-reviewing-this-years-best-value-picks#slide2

[RandyHolt]

OSU went to a pro style offense for Haskins, per Trevor Matich and friends in post draft discussions. Including having Haskins read the entire field, vs half.  Knowing that he was exposed to, and exceeded in, a pro style offense may prove to be a difference maker in his development. Albeit it was just 1 year, but its better than being in a training wheel offense and doing the same.

 

My question is likely answered, propane or charcoal that no one heard any discussions about Haskins under center. I know it's early, but in terms of hurdles the kid will face, I think that is the first big one.  I predict Jay will not reinvent his offense, but he is on the Case. I just don't want his offense catered to Case F'in Keenum simply because he is likely his week 1 starter.

 

We will hear Jay admit he installed some concepts Haskins is familiar with, but dare I think its any that can be run from under center. I don't know why I am so obsessed with wanting more gun and hurry up from Jay, but it likely stems from watching the best teams destroy the league and winning bowls when it became vogue, and any time it is still used. And likely from seeing our listless offense only come to life in many games, when in a blowout our coach at that time, would turn to it for a series out of desperation, once or twice a year. And of course shelf it immediately after any success and get back to our slow play let the D sub offense. Gibbs lived in fear of the shotgun snap over the QBs head. It has kind of come and gone, and we still never used it. Knowing Haskins excelled at it will have me pissed if I seem him struggling under center.

 

Haskins's's footwork looks fine to me from his pro day, but rest assured I am not a good judge. I am just a run of the mill monday morning coach griller.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/0ap3000001023653/Best-of-Dwayne-Haskins-pro-day

 

Some random gif I found that shows the awkwardness: sidestepping, running away from the direction you want to go, facing the sideline, yet expected to see the entire field. 

 

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

14 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

If Haskins is head and shoulders above the rest of the team and legitimately gives us the best chance to win, he plays. You don't just throw a year away.

 

With that said, if its even close at all between him and any other vet, I play the vet, because Haskins can actually learn, develop, and improve from sitting.

For me, if it's close you go with Dwayne.

 

If he's competing with these experienced QBs to a virtual standstill well then that's encouraging.

[HigSkin]

 

[Going Commando]

On 4/26/2019 at 12:15 AM, mammajamma said:

Definitely agree. Nobody cares about speed when the QB is white... But black QBs have to be Mike Vick to be a good QB? It's a terrible double standard 

 

Dark skinned black quarterbacks pay a production tax of like 50% too.  Lop off about half his production and you get Daniel Jones's.  That's why they have to be twice as good to have a chance to get drafted in front of the significantly less talented and accomplished white QB.  Same **** happened in 2017 to DeShaun Watson with Mitch Trubisky, and in 2018 with Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen.  But in this case, a team being dumb worked to our favor as we get Haskins instead of having to settle for Jones.

[seantaylor=god]

13 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Dark skinned black quarterbacks pay a production tax of like 50% too.  Lop off about half his production and you get Daniel Jones's.  That's why they have to be twice as good to have a chance to get drafted in front of the significantly less talented and accomplished white QB.  Same **** happened in 2017 to DeShaun Watson with Mitch Trubisky, and in 2018 with Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen.  But in this case, a team being dumb worked to our favor as we get Haskins instead of having to settle for Jones.

I was chatting with my neighbor about the draft  (we are both white), and we were talking about Haskins.

He said, “Well, he will have a short memory for INTs, because he’s dumb.”

 

What the ****? WHY WOULD HE ASSUME THAT?!? 

 

Implicit bias and casual racism is real.

[Llevron]

Found this last night. One of you smart people tell me if what hes saying makes sense or if hes full of it. Obviously this kind of stuff is beyond me but its damn impressive if its not bull****. He could be speaking Taiwanese for all I know at this point. But he sounds like a pro, and very serious about it. 

 

 

 

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

6 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Found this last night. One of you smart people tell me if what hes saying makes sense or if hes full of it. Obviously this kind of stuff is beyond me but its damn impressive if its not bull****. He could be speaking Taiwanese for all I know at this point. But he sounds like a pro, and very serious about it. 

 

 

 

Dwayne is a prodigy.

 

Always has been.

[Llevron]

21 minutes ago, BRAVEONAWARPATH said:

Dwayne is a prodigy.

 

Always has been.

 

He really ****ing sounds like one and im more excited about that than anything. He for real wants to do the Tom Brady thing where he hits the sore spots on Defense so fast you dont have time to react until he lets you and its too late. Thats what he wants, you can tell by how he talks. If he gets there is now up to the Redskins.....and thats what scares the **** out of me. 

[Art]

I saw this yesterday and can say if Haskins doesn't throw deep, if he just throws deep as often as that video, we'll be awesome.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

We added 3 OL, 2 WR known for blocking and reliability and a first rd quality RB. I think Haskins will be fine.

[dballer]

27 minutes ago, Art said:

I saw this yesterday and can say if Haskins doesn't throw deep, if he just throws deep as often as that video, we'll be awesome.

 

 

 

The first play there...looks like he moves well enough to me?...there are a few more plays in that video, where he looks plenty athletic in the pocket. I mean, I can't scout a QB to save my life, but man I just don't see where the speed criticism comes from.

 

Also, heard people saying he doesn't have touch...those are some pretty deep balls he's dropping in.

[Going Commando]

6 minutes ago, dballer said:

 

The first play there...looks like he moves well enough to me?...there are a few more plays in that video, where he looks plenty athletic in the pocket. I mean, I can't scout a QB to save my life, but man I just don't see where the speed criticism comes from.

 

Also, heard people saying he doesn't have touch...those are some pretty deep balls he's dropping in.

 

He ran a "slow" 40.  But the 40 has never been an important measure of QB speed.  He's got quick pocket feet, he ran zone read at Ohio State and was a good scrambler and good at throwing on the run.  That's all you need.

[Bifflog]

Courtesy of Viking1865 of the Redskins subreddit, here's some more Haskins links of interest:

 

Strong Opinion Sports Film Breakdown:

https://youtu.be/Gu08P-dh8gY

Voch Lombardi Breakdown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJYw8e5gwOw

Brett Kollman

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtrvHoHpnc8

PFF. This is Zac Robinson, who was an NFL backup QB and is now on McVay's staff in LA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDI-tMoDfYU

Dwayne sits down with Steve Mariucci.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLz-YcvbsAg

Move The Sticks podcast all about Dwayne with interviews with coaches and teammates.

https://youtu.be/f1zS6TCAScg

Analysis of his physical throwing motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-T2jUMUQOM

Game Cut Ups:

Oregon State: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08UnfeWy8Ic

Rutgers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFJRfKvdq_c

TCU (Jerry World): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnyIOltHfyk

@Penn State https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW9jc_5n6Y4

Indiana https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBsQCrT3DaY

Minnesota https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikPCU4rmReA

@Purdue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxi57KGGOvQ

Nebraska: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I57BKzreIAo

@ Mich St https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lEIZaJRChc

@Maryland https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHtC2PjblpQ

Michigan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0fX0opeG8Y

Washington (RoseBowl) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRSwDh8E49o

[TradeTheBeal!]

2 hours ago, seantaylor=god said:

I was chatting with my neighbor about the draft  (we are both white), and we were talking about Haskins.

He said, “Well, he will have a short memory for INTs, because he’s dumb.”

 

What the ****? WHY WOULD HE ASSUME THAT?!? 

 

Implicit bias and casual racism is real.

 

Already getting something similar from my uncle.  It’s ridiculous.

[kfrankie]

1 hour ago, BRAVEONAWARPATH said:

Dwayne is a prodigy.

 

Always has been.

 

Does anyone know why he's wearing a huge knee brace on his left knee, but not his right?  Hopefully its just a protective measure for his front leg, much like (most) offensive linemen all wear knee braces as essential equipment now.  He doesn't have an injury history does he?

[MartinC]

May have already been posted but here is the full recording of HAskins pro day - which includes a lot of simulated drops from under centre and WCO concepts being thrown to (among others) new Redskins receiver Terry McLaurin. Haskins throws a pretty ball ...

 

 

[arftech]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

 

He really ****ing sounds like one and im more excited about that than anything. He for real wants to do the Tom Brady thing where he hits the sore spots on Defense so fast you dont have time to react until he lets you and its too late. Thats what he wants, you can tell by how he talks. If he gets there is now up to the Redskins.....and thats what scares the **** out of me. 

He's 21!

[wit33]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

He ran a "slow" 40.  But the 40 has never been an important measure of QB speed.  He's got quick pocket feet, he ran zone read at Ohio State and was a good scrambler and good at throwing on the run.  That's all you need.

 

He certainly appears to value the need to move the pocket and get those timely 3-7 yard runs. Has a good sense of when to put head down and maximize the play and when to extend. Admittedly, I’m just getting up to speed with his game and was worried when hearing some share criticism of his ability to extend plays. I don’t see this issue at all, it actually seems to be a strength, which is extremely encouraging. As you put it, “that’s all you need”... couldn’t agree more. 

 

The more I watch, I don’t see how he’s not a day 1 starter. 

 

Why is there talk of him needing to sit year 1? I get it if you believe any rookie QB should sit, but why him specifically. It seems he’s ahead of many guys mentally. 

[JaxJoe]

On 4/29/2019 at 9:19 AM, Llevron said:

Found this last night. One of you smart people tell me if what hes saying makes sense or if hes full of it. Obviously this kind of stuff is beyond me but its damn impressive if its not bull****. He could be speaking Taiwanese for all I know at this point. But he sounds like a pro, and very serious about it. 

 

Holy ****!  Great find @Llevron!  What a gem of a video! That analyst from Beg Ten Network is giddy with awe. That’s the 2018 Michigan game when all the marbles were on the table. 

 

Edit: excerpt from an ESPN article regarding this interview: 

 

A couple of days after that Michigan game, Gerry DiNardo, a Big Ten Network analyst who coached college football for the better part of three decades, sat with Haskins for more than an hour for a filmreview. The quarterback did not know in advance what plays would be reviewed or what questions would be asked, and DiNardo said he came away from the session thinking Haskins' grasp of pass-protection concepts was "extraordinary."

[Llevron]

16 minutes ago, JaxJoe said:

Holy ****!  Great find @Llevron!  What a gem of a video! That analyst from Beg Ten Network is giddy with awe. That’s the 2018 Michigan game when all the marbles were on the table. 

                                                                                              C/Att        Yds      TD     INT

He tore them a new asshole too. His stat line was        20/31       396        6         0 

 

Im not a big stat guy (meaning I dont put alot of value in stats), and I know the systems rely on yac so you have to be cautious giving him too much credit. But it is eye opening once you hear him talk about it. Like he know exactly what they were bringing to the table and dictated exactly what they did on D. It would be hypocritical for me not to point out that when Kirk did this stuff on occasion I wrote if off mostly. 

[mcsluggo]

jeez... the pissing and whinging in this thread over the redskins NOT trading up to get the top rated QB in the draft, and taking him when he fell into their lap anyways is ****ing pathetic.   it is a bunch of perennial patsies sitting in their mother's basement daydreaming about someday getting invited to a party..and then pissing all over the invitation they finally get, because anyone only a loser would possibly invite THEM.....          dip**** weenies  

[clskinsfan]

Nice posts up above with the videos. Check out the throwing motion vid. His release is fantastic. And I saw a lot of the same concerns about his accuracy from odd angles when I watched film. It is something that is coachable. Yes. He does have a couple of "wtf" throws every game. But name a QB that doesnt. The bottom line is the guy reads defenses well and makes very fast decisions off of what he sees. He is then extremely accurate in the short to mid range. And he is only 21 years old. Incredibly value to get a QB with his traits at 15.

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

Found this last night. One of you smart people tell me if what hes saying makes sense or if hes full of it. Obviously this kind of stuff is beyond me but its damn impressive if its not bull****. He could be speaking Taiwanese for all I know at this point. But he sounds like a pro, and very serious about it.

 

He's a whiteboard stud and Brave is absolutely right that Dwayne is a prodigy.  His reads in that Michigan game were so good.  I didn't make a chart of his drop backs, but I estimated that I only saw about 5 missed reads in that game.  That is pretty nuts, Michigan was the best pass defense in the country this year, and they ate lesser QBs alive.  If you want to see just how ferocious they were, check out their performance against the Michigan State QBs.  Haskins tore them up.

 

We can break down what Haskins is talking about in that video.

 

- Starting with play #1, Ohio State is using 11 personnel in a shotgun formation (one running back, one tight end, three wide receivers) with the tight end in an H-Back alignment.  That means the TE is lined up in the backfield offset the QB, not on the line or in the slot.  The play-call is a run-pass option (RPO) with a TE motion before the snap.  Dwayne tells us that the TE motion is designed to identify the coverage responsibility of the SAM linebacker #7 (SAM = strong side off ball linebacker).  If the SAM follows the TE across the formation, then Dwayne will know he's single covering the TE.  But instead the SAM hands off the coverage to the MIKE (middle off ball linebacker) #10 Devin Bush, so now Dwayne knows that the SAM is blitzing (SAM Rifle).

 

Post-snap, Dwayne has to make a couple of reads.  The first read that a QB makes in a zone read run is the play side defensive end.  That defensive end gets left unblocked, and the end can do one of two things: he can crash down in pursuit of the running back.  Or he cans stay home in his gap and wait for the QB to come to him.  So in response the QB sees what choice the DE makes, and then either hands it off to the RB (if the DE stays home), or keeps it himself (if the DE crashes down).  In this instance, the DE crashed down so Dwayne "pulled the ball out" (kept it instead of handing off).

 

But there is a second read Dwayne has to make because this is an RPO and the actual design of the play is to pass if the DE crashes.  The TE is the first and only option and the throw is supposed to go to him in the flat.  But because the SAM linebacker is blitzing, there isn't time for that option to develop.  Dwayne says that "the tight end doesn't run the route" and this is because the TE changes his assignment to chip the blitzing SAM and then block the edge for a run.  Dwayne knows the SAM is coming too because of his pre-snap read remember.  So he correctly chooses the third option of keeping the ball himself and running behind the TE for whatever positive yardage he can get.

 

Play #2 is 11 personnel again, but this time the TE is lined up in a trips alignment (three man bunch) on the right.  You can divide the field into two unequal portions based on which hash mark the ball is placed nearest before the snap.  The bigger side of the field is called "field side."  The smaller side is called "boundary side."  On this play the ball is placed on the right hash, so the trips bunch is boundary side and the split end is field side.  Dwayne reads that the field side corner #22 is in press man coverage on his split end.  The other coverages are a single high safety in a deep zone who will naturally bracket the split end, and an in/out coverage on the boundary side.  Do you see how the two corners on the boundary side are kind of stacked on each other?  This is to disguise the coverage and create horizontal leverage on the receivers who are lined up in the bunch.  One man guards the receiver who runs he inside break out of the bunch, the other guards the receiver who breaks outside, and the hope is that the QB won't be able to tell which corner will do which.  The SAM linebacker (point man) is single covering the tight end.

 

But Dwayne says that Ohio State is running a mesh play which means a play where two or more receivers run routes that cross each other's path at a mesh point, which creates a natural pick in the coverage like in basketball.  In this case, both receivers in the bunch are running inside breaks, so Dwayne knows that the man who is supposed to cover the outside break will have to instead follow the second receiver running the inside break.  So now he's paying attention to that corner's stance, and notice that he's in a trail position even before the snap.  Notice how instead of being squared up to the line of scrimmage that DB has his inside foot a step back from the outside foot?  That's trail technique.  You line up that way to take away either inside or outside leverage from a receiver on a vertical route concept, but it puts you at a disadvantage for defending horizontal stuff because you have to reset your hips to match the pattern and you end up giving  up really easy inside leverage to the receiver.  And the receiver he's matched up on in this play is running a shallow cross instead of a vertical concept.  So Dwayne knows pre-snap that the corner is not going to be able to run with his receiver on the cross.

 

Now the third part of this is picking up the blitz correctly because shallow crosses with multiple mesh points take a long time to develop.  So they schemed in a 6 man protection, which means the RB's job is to pass block rather than run a route.  He and the RT do a great job to stone Devin Bush's blitz, which gives Haskins the time to let the route finish developing.  And the final part of all of this is to make a great throw because you have to lead that fast receiver enough so he can catch it without breaking stride and run for the TD.

 

OK this is taking way too long, so I'm going ot go faster.  Play #3 is ****ing unbelievable.  It's an example of how brilliant, instinctive quarterbacking can beat excellent coverage anyway.  And it's the kind of play only elite QBs make.  So back to 11 personnel with a TE lined up as an H-Back.  This time the three receivers are lined up on the field side, and McLaurin is drawing a bracket from the slot.  The other receivers on the line are drawing press man coverage.  Dwayne has three options on the play.  #1 is to the RB after the play fake, but the SAM is in man coverage on him so it'll be no gain.  The second is to McLaurin running the vertical concept to the slot, but the safety is bracketing him and he won't get open.  So #3 is the outside man drawing the single coverage.  This is where **** gets incredible.  The press cornerback jams the WR so hard that he almost goes out of bounds, so he has to take this really arcing route downfield in order to create some space between him and the boundary after the jam.  Dwayne knows that he's not going to be able to easily flip his hips back the other way to make a play on an outside shoulder throw (what you would normally throw to beat an inside leveraged corner running with a receiver in single coverage down field).  Instead, the natural arc of the receiver's path will take him back inside, and Dwayne can see that the receiver is looking at him rather than the DB.  Dwayne also understands that DBs trailing in man who are playing without safety help over top are going to naturally play the receiver all of the way through so that they don't get beat deep by peaking at the throw.  So he throws the ball back inside against the leverage because he knew his guy was going to be able to see it and adjust and the DB wouldn't.  Just beautiful, instinctive quarterbacking turning a completely covered play into a long bomb touchdown.

 

I can't see the whole formation for play #4, but it looks like another trips right formation maybe from 10 personnel (no tight end, four receivers) with some more meshes like play #2.  But instead of the coverage being caught trailing by the shallow crossing WR, the SAM diagnoses the mesh and picks up the crosser and takes away the inside leverage of the throw.  The play design is broken now, so he moves on to read #2, which is Parris Campbell working back towards him on a stop route.  Now what's going on with the pass rush is that Michigan is running a twist with their front four, so that sends three rushers overloading the right side of Dwayne's pocket.  He knows that three rushers coming from the right and just one from the left means that he'll have space to move to his left and buy time for the stop route to finish.  This whole time he's watching Parris Campbell's eyes and waiting for him to finish looking at the DB and look back at him.  He knows that it'll make the ball so much easier for Campbell to catch if he does, and he knows that he's got the arm to uncork and bullet that pass in there on time despite waiting for the extra step.  More instinctive quarterbacking with a nice demonstration of arm talent too.

 

Alright I've got to run, but if you want, we can finish explaining Haskins's breakdowns later. But the long story short is Haskins is a tremendously gifted and instinctive pocket passer with an NFL level feel for the position despite being a RS sophomore.   He's got it all and we were incredibly lucky to get him.  If he'd gone back for his junior year, he would have been competing to go #1 overall next season with Alabama's QB.