FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[HTTRDynasty]

29 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Few question the team did nada on the O line.  I'd hazard a guess I might have posted the most on the topic.  They did very little to help him.  No doubt.  I was crapping on this O line and supporting cast all off season. 

 

My point I made earlier is some arguments on the topic won't be won by either point of view on Haskins because some have a totally different premise about his prospects.  The conclusions are different because the premise of their thinking are entirely different. 

 

A.  If people loved him before the draft.  They just won't understand any impatience with Haskins.    The flaws aren't going to bother them much since they are already smitten by his attributes and think the rest of the package will come together.

 

B.  If people didn't love him before the draft and question whether he's a franchise QB.  They will be more likely impatient with Haskins.  To them, its relevant if Haskins struggles with some of the same things that concerned them before the draft.  And other QB examples won't move them because they had specific concerns about Haskins from the outset. 

 

So I don't see how Group A and Group B are supposed to agree to a premise of patience because its not really a theoritical conversation about patience.  It's more about whether you are inclined to buy in that Haskins likely pans out or not.   And personally I am not really hardcore on Haskins either way.  I've vacillated.  My only hardcore position on Haskins is I don't think he's some bonafide slam dunk franchise QB where the world would be surprised if he doesn't pan out.  Those type of sure thing (even though people get these guys wrong, too) type QBs tend to go top 3.  I can see him booming or busting.  And I am not smitten enough with the boom potential to wait it out for long.  But I would certainly wait through this season.  i am opposed to benching him at any point this season. 

 

I've posted easily more positive posts about Haskins than negative but I tend to post both.  And people can find information to back their current leanings like below or the PFF article.  Then conversely you can listen to Shawn Springs today who swears by Haskins.    As Sheehan (who is a big Haskins guy) likes to say its a divided opinion about Haskins.  We all want him to be the guy.  I personally think he deserves this season but if he doesn't work out some of his accuracy issues and we can take a potentially stud QB then you pull the trigger.

 

It's nothing personal against Haskins.  I think he's a great guy.  I hope he bounces back this Sunday and I suspect he will and there will be more sunshine on this thread. 😀

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just wanted to clarify - the second part of my post wasn't aimed at you.  Just a stat I saw on Twitter and wanted to share with the overall forum.  I should have just waited 5 minutes to make it a separate post.

 

But anyway, good post.  Time will tell if Haskins develops into the QB I think he can be, and I understand why some people have reservations. I do as well.  But I also like to think I'm realistic in my expectations for a young pocket-passing QB.

 

I've seen your posts on Haskins and know how level-headed you are with him.  It's the people who act as if they've never seen young QBs improve, or as if Haskins was put in a position to succeed who annoy me.

 

Regardless, I agree with most that he'll be replaced if A) he doesn't show improvement, B )we have a high pick, and C)Rivera likes the prospect on the board more than Haskins.  It's unfortunate, because his biggest weakness (accuracy) is something Zampese could have significantly improved if Haskins was given the full offseason to work with him and I do wonder if we'll be giving up on Haskins too early even if his accuracy doesn't significantly improve this year.  For young QBs who struggle with accuracy, it's usually a trait that you need to dedicate a full offseason to working on with your QB coach.

[volsmet]

4 hours ago, D’Pablo said:

Can anyone who has reviewed film tell me whether Haskins’s accuracy improves in the hurry up? What’s his accuracy like when he has at least 2.5 seconds to throw? To my eye, he looks much better in all facets when these are the circumstances, which would suggest line play are a serious drag to his performance. I don’t see an iota of Campbell’s game in Haskins’s since the latter seems to process information so much better.

Haskins has far more movement in his delivery than most, his weight, his follow through, his hips, he just creates his momentum awkwardly at times, and while it creates the velocity we love, it’s also more difficult to repeat which makes *placement of the ball more varied.

 

When he’s in sync and rips it, it’s beautiful. At times he throws something awkward that’s unbelievable. But, replicating results is the goal and it can be tough to replicate anything when fearing pressure & it’s impossible to change habits when you’re constantly uncomfortable. To grow, all of these young guys need protection, so do most of the old farts.

 

2 hours ago, skinbuck said:

fwiw Burrow averaged 5.2 ypa, 8.5 ypc and a long of 23 yards. He wasn’t exactly lsu joe slinging it

Junk time dump offs really got people fired up about Burrow. He was impressive in spots, but he was given everything for two TD drives while down 12+. He was awful v SD. 

[volsmet]

41 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Cooley said this is essentially a high school offense in terms of what they’re trying to do. Not complexities at all. 

Plenty of similarities with what they did at Bullis.

[PartyPosse]

4 hours ago, httr2020dynasty said:

 

Haskins was 13/25 for 147 yards, 0 tds. Not sure the meaning of pointing out their team head to head match when Haskins numbers were just as bad or worse than Allen's. 

 

And I'll have to agree to disagree on the other points. The object is to build a winning culture not babysit players because we drafted them before Rivera and his regime were even around. If Haskins continues to play like this for one or two more games and Rivera doesn't play Allen I'll be very disappointed. He owes Haskins absolutely nothing and Haskins has done nothing to deserve being a long term project. We have done this before plenty of times with qbs. Time to try something different and stop wasting time with players who aren't making us competitive. I see absolutely nothing wrong with benching Haskins if he continues to be statistically the worst qb in the NFL. And it doesn't take much to earn more playing time, all you have to show is you are making the team better, you don't have to win. Against Cleveland he just has to be better than being the worst player in the league for his position and he'll continue playing. Not asking for much but not sure why anyone wants to go through another project with a qb that is not showing us anything.

Sorry but this absurd. It’s not babysitting when you’re throwing him out there with that line, it’s trial by fire. Also, it’s not like Dwayne is out there losing games. It’s not like when Nathan Peterson threw 5 INT in a half. He’s absolutely not the worst qb player despite what some random stat says. Benching Haskins now serves no purpose other than examining whether or not Kyle Allen is your future and I have no idea why anyone would have the slightest idea why that would be the case. Dude started out hot, and then completely fell apart. He’s simply not a good QB.

 

Your demand to bench Haskins now over Kyle may be one of the worst arguments I’ve ever heard.

[Redwolves92]

scott turner is also at fault here. the way the offense is being run it doesnt seem like hes doing anything to make dwayne comfortable. im not sure whats so creative and special about his offense like we heard prior to the season beginning. Its the most plain garbage ive seen. They take zero shots down the field or have any sort of trickery. It seems to me that an up tempo offense suits Dwayne's strengths. Quick passes or rolling him out to avoid the pressure could help increase his confidence. A coach should constantly be analyzing and making these adjustments. I dont remember Dwayne looking like this in his starts towards the end of last season. I believe Callahan knew how to get more out of him and put him in a position to succeed. We'll see how he and Turner respond next game. I can buy into the "growing pains" idea for now but if its week 10 and hes still overthrowing tds this man will be gone. Then we will hit the reset button again for a new qb and endure more "growing pains" to figure out if hes the man or not. That said, I havent given up on Dwayne yet. He has potential. 

[volsmet]

There is zero rational reason to replace Haskins. 

[KDawg]

49 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Sorry but this absurd. It’s not babysitting when you’re throwing him out there with that line, it’s trial by fire. Also, it’s not like Dwayne is out there losing games. It’s not like when Nathan Peterson threw 5 INT in a half. He’s absolutely not the worst qb player despite what some random stat says. Benching Haskins now serves no purpose other than examining whether or not Kyle Allen is your future and I have no idea why anyone would have the slightest idea why that would be the case. Dude started out hot, and then completely fell apart. He’s simply not a good QB.

 

Your demand to bench Haskins now over Kyle may be one of the worst arguments I’ve ever heard.

I can’t understand why you’d replace Haskins now.

 

The only reasons to do it are: 1) injury  2) the team is competing. It has talent and the quarterback is costing them games mostly due to costly mistakes or 3) your QB is older and you have a young guy on your bench that you are grooming to be the guy and it’s time to pass the torch.

 

Its 2020 so I won’t speak on point 1. But point 2 isn’t happening... 3) There is no torch passing because Haskins IS the young guy. 
 

You can’t pull him now. He’s the QB.

 

Get a real evaluation, see if he improves through the next 14 games. He very well could if his surrounding cast and coordinator help him more. 
 

Benching him doesn’t help us as Allen isn’t going to be “the man” in DC long term. It’s Haskins or a new guy from 2021.

[PartyPosse]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Benching him doesn’t help us as Allen isn’t going to be “the man” in DC long term. It’s Haskins or a new guy from 2021.

I mean if it was Newton on the bench or Winston then maaaaaybe I’d consider it. But Kyle Allen???

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I mean if it was Newton on the bench or Winston then maaaaaybe I’d consider it. But Kyle Allen???

There’s a reason Rivera didn’t sign Newton. And that was to stop people calling for the back up.

[method man]

23 minutes ago, Redwolves92 said:

scott turner is also at fault here. the way the offense is being run it doesnt seem like hes doing anything to make dwayne comfortable. im not sure whats so creative and special about his offense like we heard prior to the season beginning. Its the most plain garbage ive seen. They take zero shots down the field or have any sort of trickery. It seems to me that an up tempo offense suits Dwayne's strengths. Quick passes or rolling him out to avoid the pressure could help increase his confidence. A coach should constantly be analyzing and making these adjustments. I dont remember Dwayne looking like this in his starts towards the end of last season. I believe Callahan knew how to get more out of him and put him in a position to succeed. We'll see how he and Turner respond next game. I can buy into the "growing pains" idea for now but if its week 10 and hes still overthrowing tds this man will be gone. Then we will hit the reset button again for a new qb and endure more "growing pains" to figure out if hes the man or not. That said, I havent given up on Dwayne yet. He has potential. 

 

Also why I'm pissed they didn't keep KOC. When Callahan finally handed the full reins to KOC, Haskins started cooking as KOC schemed up an offense built for Dwayne's strengths. (If you think KOC was the one choosing to do run, run, run like in the Buffalo game, you are an idiot)

[Snagletooth]

1 hour ago, Redwolves92 said:

scott turner is also at fault here. the way the offense is being run it doesnt seem like hes doing anything to make dwayne comfortable. im not sure whats so creative and special about his offense like we heard prior to the season beginning. Its the most plain garbage ive seen. They take zero shots down the field or have any sort of trickery. 

Rewatched the the first half.  A lot of the play calling was empty backfield or getting skill players out in routs quick.  Not really designed for a lot of downfield looks.  The defense wont play soft and then rubs and quick separation become key for completion opportunities.

[FootballZombie]

3 hours ago, skinbuck said:

 

 

3 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

 

Burrow's QB rating was a whole tremendous 2 points higher in that game than Haskins was against Ariz.

 

All people seem to care about are yards. Darn with how they are acquired.

[RandyHolt]

I think opening the game with a slant to Turbo would turbo charge our sluggish starts.  We seem to open run run pass in our slow play offense... It's great we want to run and take pressure off Dwayne but when he's facing 3rd and longs to start games, its not working.

 

Someone prove to me that Dwayne does best in a traditional slow play under center NFL offense.

 

[SoCalSkins]

13 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Someone prove to me that Dwayne does best in a traditional slow play under center NFL offense.

 

He has sucked at every NFL offense he has been in. Maybe it’s not the offense? Last year you whined that the terminology Gruden used was too complex and hard for Haskins. Now the offense is too slow?  
 

It’s a results driven league and the results are in. Dude is a bust. It’s over. He will never be a success as an NFL QB. Might as well let him stink it up rest of the way but the dude just sucks at football at this level. Roughly 15 people on earth at any given time do that job well. He’s not one of them and never will be. Simple as that. 

[PartyPosse]

38 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

 

Burrow's QB rating was a whole tremendous 2 points higher in that game than Haskins was against Ariz.

 

All people seem to care about are yards. Darn with how they are acquired.

I don’t but Burrow definitely looks more poised and in control.

[volsmet]

 

 

42 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I don’t but Burrow definitely looks more poised and in control.

 

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

I find it strange how we're not utilizing our RBs more in the passing game. I thought that was a staple of ST's offenses, but that target shares spreadsheet shows that Dwayne rarely passes to the RB, which seems accurate when watching the games the first two weeks of the season. 

[FootballZombie]

This O was supposed to feature Gibson/McK in the passing game. They have not been able to establish the primary gameplan in either of the first two weeks.

 

I don't think we are doing much of any of what this roster is designed for. Makes fighting uphill even harder

3 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

I find it strange how we're not utilizing our RBs more in the passing game. I thought that was a staple of ST's offenses, but that target shares spreadsheet shows that Dwayne rarely passes to the RB, which seems accurate when watching the games the first two weeks of the season. 

 

Zombie Jinx

[TheShredder]

4 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Cooley said this is essentially a high school offense in terms of what they’re trying to do. Not complexities at all. 

Where did you hear that from Cooley?  I lost track of him.

[Panninho]

2 hours ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

I find it strange how we're not utilizing our RBs more in the passing game. I thought that was a staple of ST's offenses, but that target shares spreadsheet shows that Dwayne rarely passes to the RB, which seems accurate when watching the games the first two weeks of the season. 

I find the whole scheme a bit strange so far. We also see the jet sweep motion every second snap, yet have still to actually run it. Who is supposed to be fooled by that motion if you never actually hand off the ball? I thought we might see some creative play designs but so far all I see is a lot of motion that seems to get us nowhere.

[KDawg]

I’m curious if the scheme is limited by the players, the players are limited by the scheme, or both of those equations are just off. 
 

For instance, are we running that one motion, repeatedly, to help Dwayne read the D? I’d guess no. I think Dwayne struggles with reads post snap, which is why his accuracy decreases the longer he holds the ball, mostly because pressure makes him uneasy with his already off mechanics... But I think one of his strengths, and something he seemed to do well in college, was presnap reads and what’s available.

 

His completion percentage and accuracy are high this season too on the quick hitters. That is a testament to understanding the presnap defensive looks and his strong arm. 
 

So I don’t think he’s the reason for it...

 

Are we doing it to set up a jet sweep in week 6?

 

Where are the tight end trades? Shifts? Short motions? Orbit motions? Motions make defenses think... and it’s the NFL, so they can mostly overcome that... but still, you can catch a guy focusing on one thing or another and get them flat footed for a second.

 

Our best 11 guys need to be on the field as often as possible offensively. 
 

To me, that means the five ball handlers for this team are probably: McKissick, Gibson, Thomas, Sims, McLaurin. 
 

Not an ideal group league wide, but it’s much better than: Thomas, Baugh, Sims, McLaurin, Inman. 
 

Move the backs. At least pretend they are receiving threats. Hit quick screens if coverage is off of them. Get Haskins completions and confidence. Get the D to think about being aggressive in coverage then take your shots.

 

One thing we haven’t seen with Haskins is him on a hot streak. He operates best when he’s not thinking post snap. So scheme him into a rhythm and let’s see if he goes into a zone.

 

That could be a big difference in his development and whether we need a QB or not. 
 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

I am listening to a segment of Cooley's take about Haskins just now on 980.  The cliff notes of it is he picks up how Haskins struggles in multiple ways when he gets flushed or moves to the right.  He does it much better on the left.  He could see that the Cardinals adjusted their defense to account for that and bait their pass rush among other things accordingly. 

 

Cooley said Haskins can throw the ball moving to his left.  But he has very little accuracy moving to the right.  He talked about how he plants his footwork much more comfortable on the left, but its very awkward to the right, especially throwing on the move he has really awkward footwork. He said ditto as a runner he's really hesitant on the right side, he's much more comfortable on the left.  He said he can tell the Cardinals clearly picked up on this tendency and factored that in their game plan.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

More Cooley, interesting.  On Christian, he said he isn't a mauler but was mostly fine in pass protection.  In the run game, he has almost no punch, too little physicality.  He thought Martin was good last week and played the best among the guys on the O line.   He thought Martin helped the run game.   The one thing I'll say about that, it seems to match I presume PFF scores where both of their grades rose from week 1.   

 

[DJHJR86]

16 hours ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

Interesting comparison.  Please share those numbers. If I remember correctly, Campbell didn't take a snap in his 1st year. Then his 2nd year was in the same system even though he only started maybe half the year. 

 

Jason Campbell started 7 games in his rookie year...just like Haskins.

 

Campbell:

138/257 - 53.7% - 11 TD - 9 INT - 71.4 Passer Rtg - 5.39 AY/A

 

Haskins has looked more promising than Campbell in his first 9 starts.

[DJHJR86]

28 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am listening to a segment of Cooley's take about Haskins just now on 980.  The cliff notes of it is he picks up how Haskins struggles in multiple ways when he gets flushed or moves to the right.  He does it much better on the left.  He could see that the Cardinals adjusted their defense to account for that and bait their pass rush among other things accordingly. 

 

Cooley said Haskins can throw the ball moving to his left.  But he has very little accuracy moving to the right.  He talked about how he plants his footwork much more comfortable on the left, but its very awkward to the right, especially throwing on the move he has really awkward footwork. He said ditto as a runner he's really hesitant on the right side, he's much more comfortable on the left.  He said he can tell the Cardinals clearly picked up on this tendency and factored that in their game plan.

 

 

Cooley was much more brutal on Sheehan's podcast about Haskins.  Essentially called the offense a high school like offense, and that he has very poor mechanics and no touch on any of his throws.  Compared it to a pitcher in baseball who can only throw a fastball.  Also hinted that receivers are going to get tired of that as the season goes on.