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FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State


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4 minutes ago, volsmet said:

After week 1 I thought we were firmly in contention for the #1 overall pick, so I’m not on the same page as Nick.

I think the Jets have us beat there.  They lost two of their best defenders and they arguably have a worse offensive cast than we do!

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Just now, mhd24 said:

I think the Jets have us beat there.  They lost two of their best defenders and they arguably have a worse offensive cast than we do!


So we’re next talent wise? Or close to it?

 

That means we’re in contention.

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Just now, KDawg said:


So we’re next talent wise? Or close to it?

 

That means we’re in contention.

 

 

Nah, the Jets don't have any defense talent (Mosely opted out and Adams was traded).  Bell is hurt and (although I like him) Perriman is their best WR with Crowder dinged up.  They haven't even been close in their games.

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1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

A completion rate is determined by more than a QBs accuracy.  Some of Dwaynes "missed" throws are not actual placement issues.  they're him pushing the ball downfield but keeping it away from defenders.

 

If you want to to push it vertically but you don't have good receivers, and more basic than that, you don't have good sync with the receivers you do have, you're just not going to complete these throws most of the time.

 

So you can either dial it back and throw gimmes and low options the whole game like a Minshew or an Alex Smith.  It's not bad but there is no real development there and you won't beat good defenses with only a short passing game unless you've got horses up front and great backs and playmaker pass catchers.  Or you can grind through the bumpy installation of the full passing game and miss a lot of throws and hopefully learn from all of the situations you're encountering.  And hopefully you and your OC and pass catchers and protection can all get on the same page and everyone can stay on schedule.

 

I think we want Dwayne to be aggressive no matter what.  We've already got Alex Smith and it's not enough to compete at the highest level of the sport.  Not without all of the other pieces being great.  Fans are going to be fans, which is to say they're going to be clueless and reactionary, but the organization needs to be patient with Dwayne.  And Scott Turner for that matter.  We're trying to build an offense from nothing.  We have basically four above average talents on that side of the ball, and two are second year players and one is a rookie.  A lot of the rest of the guys are replacement level or worse.  This is going to take a while.

 

 

Here's Minschew against the Titans.  He can improvise and scramble.  Throws a much better catchable ball.  Jay is scheming guys open and he's hitting them.  Objectively speaking, Minschew has been much better than Haskins in the NFL.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

Nah, the Jets don't have any defense talent (Mosely opted out and Adams was traded).  Bell is hurt and (although I like him) Perriman is their best WR with Crowder dinged up.  They haven't even been close in their games.


Becton and Sewell in NY. 

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Just now, volsmet said:


Becton and Sewell in NY. 

 

 

I think they take Lawrence.  Their GM didn't draft Darnold, and Lawrence is more hyped than any QB since Luck.  They'd probably get a 3rd rounder for Darnold.

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4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Don't know.  I have to study him but love his profile and to an extent Lance too for similar reasons (mobility) but I don't have an opinion yet.    Hopefully at the end of the season Haskins is the guy but like I've said if he isn't and the season goes south this isn't the worst draft to be in the Qb business. 

 

 

 


On the 2nd throw a Lance stares right for an hour v bums with a great Oline protecting him. 

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5 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

I think they take Lawrence.  Their GM didn't draft Darnold, and Lawrence is more hyped than any QB since Luck.  They'd probably get a 3rd rounder for Darnold.


Darnold and Rosen to the Tb practice squad. 

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10 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

Here's Minschew against the Titans.

I've seen Minschew mentioned quite a bit. It's totally irrelevant. Gardner Minchew has absolutely nothing to do with Haskins and his development. He's playing better. What does that have to do with Haskins? 

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This can be a very frustrating fanbase to deal with.

 

I think anyone who tries to evaluate Haskins fairly up to this point, has consistently said the same things, and nothing has changed since the beginning.  To say he has shown no flashes is ridiculous -- the last two games of last year, he showed flashes  How can we already forget that, it was only two games ago in the Haskins timeline???  2 starts, 1 mediocre, and 1 bad, and we've already forgotten what was an elite level worth of 2 games?  I mean come on, lets try to keep a vaguely even keel. 

 

I know both me and volsmet, who I think makes fairly-level headed analyses of Haskins, have both been on board as saying this guy is a project, we need to be patient, the underlying talent is there but he needs time to learns some basics of QB play (mechanics), and needs to have at least average OL play in order to have a chance at being successful.  We are at least 1 year, maybe 2 years away from having an average OL.  We've said this from the day he was drafted.  I watched Haskins at OSU, so I had a pretty good idea of what to expect.  I expected him to need 2 years to develop -- just let him go out there and figure it out -- but at the end of that, he'd be the 2nd best QB out of that draft class.  I still stand by my statement, although Minshew did come out of nowhere for me.  

 

There are several reasons to be patient with Haskins.  Number one, what the hell are we in a hurry for?  What about this offense, makes you think that it is 1 average/decent QB away from taking this team to the playoffs?  Alex Smith is healthy.  Are you saying, we should just put Alex Smith -- the definition of an average QB -- and we'd be winning games?  No?  Then STFU, cause that's our only option now and for the foreseeable future.

 

Secondly, one of Haskins strengths is that, for an immature QB with limited NFL and college experience, he does a good job of reading the field.  Being able to read the field is really a key to success. =]Everyone, including his coaches, seems to be in agreement, that whatever his problems are, not knowing where to go with the football is not one of them.  And THIS IS CRUCIAL, when deciding how patient to be with a young QB.  If he's seeing the field, but for whatever reason just not making the throws -- figure out why that is and try to fix it.  For Haskins, it seems to be mechanics (which are slowly but steadily improving), and an understandable lack of confidence in his offensive line.  The latter issue, should really be all that you need to know, to know we NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE PATIENT. 

 

From the beginning of the season, several of us fretted that Haskins development very well could be slowed by this terrible OL.  If we dont want that growth to be permanently stunted, we really really need to show patience now.  None of this is unexpected.  Listen to the head coach right now.  Ron Rivera is a refreshingly honest coach, if Haskins was out there just ****ting the bed, he would likely just simply say that.  But instead Ron Rivera all but complimented Haskins, when he said, "Right now, Haskins problems is that he's going through his progressions too quickly."  If that's true, thats an awesome problem to have -- there's nothing easier than slowing that down.  Of course, if you want Haskins to go throw his progressions at a slower pace, you need to keep him upright for more than 2 seconds.  Thats NOT Haskins problem to solve. 

 

The next 2 to 4 weeks are going to be critical.  Without Scherff, an already bad OL is now becoming hands-down the worst OL in the NFL, and probably not even as good as some college OL's.  I kid you not, I think this group of guys would struggle in the Big 10, much less the National ****ing Football league.

 

So Im just looking for Haskins to survive for the next 4 weeks.  Survive, thats it kid, survive.  **** the dumbass fans, your coach knows your up against an impossible task right now, thats why he's trying to give you confidence with that compliment-criticism of "he's going through progressions too fast."  Just survive kid, without incurring permanent bodily or psychological damage.  Use practice time for improving and learning, but gamedays are just about 1 thing:  survive.  Then, when Scherff gets back, try to get back to improving

 

 

 

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I don’t think Haskins reads the field well at all, to be honest.

 

I think he’s good at seeing his receivers running open and throwing it somewhat to them. I think he’s good at diagnosing things presnap. I think he has a quick release. I think he has a strong arm. I think he struggles with pressure. I think he struggles with mechanics. I think he struggles outside the hashes. I think he struggles with touch. And, my importantly, I think he struggles with defensive coverage rolls and movement as plays develop.

 

That is why he throws to players and not spots. That’s why he and McLaurin weren’t on the same page on the one ball. He doesn’t trust his own reads, in my opinion.

 

Conversely, that is also why he excels at quick hitters. He has a strong arm, no time to overthink, a quick release, and a good handle on what a defense is giving him presnap. 
 

Which is why it’s baffling that the team isn’t giving him more quick hitters and utilizing Gibson/McKissick in 2 back sets and as receivers. That is his strength. That is the way to give him confidence. That is the way to begin development properly. 
 

He needs to play, at least through the bye. I don’t see a great argument for benching him at all this year. Evaluate so the team can evaluate how to properly use its resources this offseason. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t think Haskins reads the field well at all, to be honest.

 

I think he’s good at seeing his receivers running open and throwing it somewhat to them. I think he’s good at diagnosing things presnap. I think he has a quick release. I think he has a strong arm. I think he struggles with pressure. I think he struggles with mechanics. I think he struggles outside the hashes. I think he struggles with touch. And, my importantly, I think he struggles with defensive coverage rolls and movement as plays develop.

 

That is why he throws to players and not spots. That’s why he and McLaurin weren’t on the same page on the one ball. He doesn’t trust his own reads, in my opinion.

 

Conversely, that is also why he excels at quick hitters. He has a strong arm, no time to overthink, a quick release, and a good handle on what a defense is giving him presnap. 
 

Which is why it’s baffling that the team isn’t giving him more quick hitters and utilizing Gibson/McKissick in 2 back sets and as receivers. That is his strength. That is the way to give him confidence. That is the way to begin development properly. 
 

He needs to play, at least through the bye. I don’t see a great argument for benching him at all this year. Evaluate so the team can evaluate how to properly use its resources this offseason. 

 

 


QBs in this position should be rolled out frequently. Problems with the pocket? Remove it. It’s the most underutilized set up in the game. 

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2 minutes ago, volsmet said:


QBs in this position should be rolled out frequently. Problems with the pocket? Remove it. It’s the most underutilized set up in the game. 


Absolutely. Move the pocket. Use play action. Call quick hitters. Neutralize the front because the line can’t. 
 

**** we’re not even really utilizing motions. 
 

All the wrong things to do if you’re trying to offset a developing QB and porous line.

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4 hours ago, wit33 said:

Alright, I’ll say it, I do miss the Gruden passing scheme on offense. I better understand why so many respect him. His ability to attack all levels and scheme intermediate passes was real. So weird, always thought he and Dwayne would e made a great fit. 
 

Okay, moving on from that, Turner must get some throws down the field. A strength of Haskins. 

 

This is my initial impression. Looks like some sort of modified Alex Smith dink and dunk game plan designed to protect Haskins and support the defense.  The Arizona defense was playing the short game and forcing Haskins progression, with the pressure, the comfort level breaks down and the accuracy with it.  

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I don't really agree on the inability to read a D

 

I like Haskin's decision making. He often throws the ball to the person it should be going to even if its not complete. I believe that goes hand in hand with being able to read a defense. It is pretty hard to limit INTs and make good choices with the ball when you are defense illiterate.

 

Almost every QB that has issues reading Defense are INT machines, b/c they are poor at deciphering where the ball should go. They think they see one thing when it is actually another, or they miss coverage players completely. I don't see that problem with our QB.

 

Very rarely do I feel myself saying "why did he throw to that guy?" He does not predetermine his throws and he is willing to give up on plays and throw balls away, also a part of decision making and reading a D.

 

His avg depth last week was literally league avg so its not like he's playing captain checkdown to avoid coverage like many other young QBs either.

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Don’t agree that he sees the field. He doesn’t throw picks because he throws to receivers, and doesn’t lead receivers. He doesn’t throw picks because, while his accuracy as a whole isn’t great, he is accurate enough to put the ball in a location that the defensive back can’t get to it. Just sometimes the receiver can’t either. 
 

He is rattled by pressure. And knowing the rush is coming makes him lose the defensive movement. 
 

But it is what it is. Bottom line is, during his tryout phase, we need to do the things he excels at to give him a chance.

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A perplexing tale of two quarterbacks

 

Haskins vs 33 starting qbs through week 2.

 

Throwing the ball in under 2.0 seconds (looks like a potential pro bowler) 

vs.

Throwing the ball after 2.0 seconds (looks like a career clipboard holder).

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by TrancesWithWolves
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On target % is a concern, one that requires a million reps. Unfortunately, his mechanical issues limit his immediate upside; Id prefer to roll him out and let him unleash more frequently. I don’t think he’s going to be the most accurate on short stuff, but I think he can be an elite deep ball guy if we design plays that get us one on ones out of the pocket. Screens & roll outs, let him sling it. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, volsmet said:


QBs in this position should be rolled out frequently. Problems with the pocket? Remove it. It’s the most underutilized set up in the game. 

Been wondering why this isn’t baked in to the game planning/play calling given the oline struggles.  
 

@KDawg Good point about the motions - I totally glossed over the fact that sweep motions aren’t accomplishing the same thing.  More PA would be good too, probably more of the rpo variety.  
 

I’d also like to see us run the ball a touch more early on.  Easier on the oline (especially our inexperienced guys), takes some of the burden off Haskins if we have some success, and gives the D more rest.  Frankly, I wouldn’t be suggesting it if Haskins was completing more balls - I appreciate the short pass game theory.  
 

Speaking of which, I wonder how much of a factor Haskins’ natural aggressive-ness is affecting the underutilization of passes to the backs?  Hmm...

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1 hour ago, Koala said:

This can be a very frustrating fanbase to deal with.

 

I think anyone who tries to evaluate Haskins fairly up to this point, has consistently said the same things, and nothing has changed since the beginning.  To say he has shown no flashes is ridiculous -- the last two games of last year, he showed flashes  How can we already forget that, it was only two games ago in the Haskins timeline???  2 starts, 1 mediocre, and 1 bad, and we've already forgotten what was an elite level worth of 2 games?  I mean come on, lets try to keep a vaguely even keel. 

 

I know both me and volsmet, who I think makes fairly-level headed analyses of Haskins, have both been on board as saying this guy is a project, we need to be patient, the underlying talent is there but he needs time to learns some basics of QB play (mechanics), and needs to have at least average OL play in order to have a chance at being successful.  We are at least 1 year, maybe 2 years away from having an average OL.  We've said this from the day he was drafted.  I watched Haskins at OSU, so I had a pretty good idea of what to expect.  I expected him to need 2 years to develop -- just let him go out there and figure it out -- but at the end of that, he'd be the 2nd best QB out of that draft class.  I still stand by my statement, although Minshew did come out of nowhere for me.  

 

There are several reasons to be patient with Haskins.  Number one, what the hell are we in a hurry for?  What about this offense, makes you think that it is 1 average/decent QB away from taking this team to the playoffs?  Alex Smith is healthy.  Are you saying, we should just put Alex Smith -- the definition of an average QB -- and we'd be winning games?  No?  Then STFU, cause that's our only option now and for the foreseeable future.

 

Secondly, one of Haskins strengths is that, for an immature QB with limited NFL and college experience, he does a good job of reading the field.  Being able to read the field is really a key to success. =]Everyone, including his coaches, seems to be in agreement, that whatever his problems are, not knowing where to go with the football is not one of them.  And THIS IS CRUCIAL, when deciding how patient to be with a young QB.  If he's seeing the field, but for whatever reason just not making the throws -- figure out why that is and try to fix it.  For Haskins, it seems to be mechanics (which are slowly but steadily improving), and an understandable lack of confidence in his offensive line.  The latter issue, should really be all that you need to know, to know we NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE PATIENT. 

 

From the beginning of the season, several of us fretted that Haskins development very well could be slowed by this terrible OL.  If we dont want that growth to be permanently stunted, we really really need to show patience now.  None of this is unexpected.  Listen to the head coach right now.  Ron Rivera is a refreshingly honest coach, if Haskins was out there just ****ting the bed, he would likely just simply say that.  But instead Ron Rivera all but complimented Haskins, when he said, "Right now, Haskins problems is that he's going through his progressions too quickly."  If that's true, thats an awesome problem to have -- there's nothing easier than slowing that down.  Of course, if you want Haskins to go throw his progressions at a slower pace, you need to keep him upright for more than 2 seconds.  Thats NOT Haskins problem to solve. 

 

The next 2 to 4 weeks are going to be critical.  Without Scherff, an already bad OL is now becoming hands-down the worst OL in the NFL, and probably not even as good as some college OL's.  I kid you not, I think this group of guys would struggle in the Big 10, much less the National ****ing Football league.

 

So Im just looking for Haskins to survive for the next 4 weeks.  Survive, thats it kid, survive.  **** the dumbass fans, your coach knows your up against an impossible task right now, thats why he's trying to give you confidence with that compliment-criticism of "he's going through progressions too fast."  Just survive kid, without incurring permanent bodily or psychological damage.  Use practice time for improving and learning, but gamedays are just about 1 thing:  survive.  Then, when Scherff gets back, try to get back to improving

 

 

 

I’ve never seen the bar be so low for any player (in any sport) in this town. From day 1, ppl have treated him like he’s a Make a Wish kid that got a chance to play. In the lead up to last season, all the reports were basically that he was so deaf, dumb, and blind that we couldn’t possibly think of playing him (and again, i think there is/was something more nefarious hidden in those messages but this isn’t the thread for that). I mean some of the ESPN folks were acting like he was so raw and football immature that it was a miracle he could tie his cleats. He showed he at least could throw a football last year so we know he’s a functioning adult professional athlete. So can we treat him like one? He’s earned that. Maybe hold him to a professional standard while realizing he has an unideal situation around him (which is the same story of more than half the QBs in the league and nearly all young ones)? Like damn. He seems like a big time competitor from his demeanor. He’d probably read this post and feel disrespected. He knows he has to be better. He’s said it himself. These guys are the alpha of the alphas. They don’t want to be told “just don’t die, kid” . They want to be treated like professionals.

Edited by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93
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1 hour ago, Koala said:

This can be a very frustrating fanbase to deal with.

 

I think anyone who tries to evaluate Haskins fairly up to this point, has consistently said the same things, and nothing has changed since the beginning.  To say he has shown no flashes is ridiculous -- the last two games of last year, he showed flashes  How can we already forget that, it was only two games ago in the Haskins timeline???  2 starts, 1 mediocre, and 1 bad, and we've already forgotten what was an elite level worth of 2 games?  I mean come on, lets try to keep a vaguely even keel. 

 

I know both me and volsmet, who I think makes fairly-level headed analyses of Haskins, have both been on board as saying this guy is a project, we need to be patient, the underlying talent is there but he needs time to learns some basics of QB play (mechanics), and needs to have at least average OL play in order to have a chance at being successful.  We are at least 1 year, maybe 2 years away from having an average OL.  We've said this from the day he was drafted.  I watched Haskins at OSU, so I had a pretty good idea of what to expect.  I expected him to need 2 years to develop -- just let him go out there and figure it out -- but at the end of that, he'd be the 2nd best QB out of that draft class.  I still stand by my statement, although Minshew did come out of nowhere for me.  

 

 

We've heard "be patient", "they need to develop" about every young qb we have had for the last 30 years. Every.... single... time... they turn out to be exactly what they look like. Now we got a qb that was near dead last in QBR last year and dead last in QBR this year but we're supposed to believe it will be different this time? Nah, been down that road too many times. Let's try something else. Give Allen a shot, let's see if the team really is as bad as the Haskins supporters say it is or if it's Haskins. If the team doesn't improve then go back to Haskins until we can upgrade the position. This path of waiting for a bad project to turn good has never worked out for us. 

 

Edit: I'd give Haskins another game or two, if he still looks like he can't get the job done, then I'd switch. I'm just not in the, let's give him a year or two camp.

Edited by httr2020dynasty
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In order to put the ball in a place a defender cant get to it, you have to know where the defenders are and where they can go, otherwise a zone defender takes your lunch money. Pressure destroys his accuracy, but not his ability to see what the D is doing. Otherwise we’d see him huck balls into triple coverage due to panic. We have not seen that at all this season and he has been under his fair share of duress.  

 

He has not even thrown into double coverage much this season. He usually tries to find a guy in single.

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  • TK changed the title to FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State
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