FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[RandyHolt]

22 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't get the impression though too many plays though is the #1 challenge.  It seems more like understanding the Algebra period is the drill. The whole process of running the huddle, calling the protection, calling the play, positioning the players, etc - that's not for the most part what Haskins had to do in Ohio State according to those who have spoken on it.  Part of the reason for example Andrew Luck was so pro ready wasn't a simplified system but that he was used to running a pro style system in college.  For Haskins he's learning a new language.  As Keenum said he knows Spanish, learning Jay's system is Portuguese so its an adjustment but its not that hard.  For Haskins he's learning Spanish mostly from scratch.  

 

Why isn't Case the undisputed starter?    It's either he is less talented than Colt who cannot even stay on the field, or its the mental side.

 

I think it would be a mistake for Case to admit that he really doesn't know as much Spanish as we'd think he'd know from being forced to learn 6 languages in 7 years.

 

I'd wager the complexity or terminology of Jay's offense is proving difficult even for Keenum to grasp; another new very complex playbook and system has yet another QBs plate overloaded.  And the QB will always take the fall if they don't succeed. It is never scrutinized, that which what is asked of them.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Why isn't Case the undisputed starter?    It's either he is less talented than Colt who cannot even stay on the field, or its the mental side.

 

 

From what I saw in camp Case wasn't as good as Colt.  I said so at the time.  Case seemed shaky to me accuracy wise on some really basic throws -- especially short throws in the flat.  Both he and Haskins looked really shaky with those throws and even when they completed those balls the receiver often had to break back to catch the ball which defeats the purpose with throws like that considering the idea is YAC.   Not that Colt was that hot but he looked better to me than Case and Haskins especially with the short stuff.   All 3 of them threw a ton of picks. 

 

When I watched Haskins my thought wasn't wow this dude is super accurate if only he just knew the plays.  His accuracy was erratic.  If I had to categorize it:  he tends to under throw out routes and deep balls and over throws intermediate crossing-dig routes.  His sweet spot seems to be short crossing routes, slants -- passes 5-10 yards up the middle.  As much as I liked his flashes in the preseason, he still stuck me the same guy as for his accuracy with the same weaknesses.  

 

What's tantalizing about Haskins though is you can see the arm talent, the velocity is superb and sometimes he can get hot with throws he otherwise can struggle with or is inconsistent with.  I recall saying the same thing on the draft thread months ago which is Haskins shows exceptions to everything where you go wow.  So to me at least in the short term he has things to clean up.  I love that he has the work ethic and talent to address it.  But from what I watched I wasn't blown away by any of the QBs and no I don't think that's on Jay and his system.  I just think none of the the three QBs are very good right now.  Keenum and Colt have mostly been Jags in their careers for a reason.  I think Haskins can get there but IMO his issues aren't exclusively about learning a complex playbook.    

 

 

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

 

I'd wager the complexity or terminology of Jay's offense is proving difficult even for Keenum to grasp; another new very complex playbook and system has yet another QBs plate overloaded.  And the QB will always take the fall if they don't succeed. It is never scrutinized, that which what is asked of them.

 

I follow you want to put this on Jay.  But Haskins IMO is raw, I thought he was raw when I watched him in Ohio State, too and commented on it at the time.  I gather he's got footwork among other things to work on aside from just learning the plays IMO.    He's more elusive in the pocket than he looked to me at Ohio State. I like his personality.  I like his arm talent.  I think he has a shot to get there.  But I do think its no accident that some of the people who are closest to Haskins (like Springs) and who worship him like Reddick both are screaming not to start Haskins.  Both whom don't want to start Haskins period this year.  And none of them say we think he's ready but the issue is dumbing down Jay's system. They (among others) have been very specific as to why they don't want to start Haskins right away. 

 

I get your point about simplifying a system for a rookie QB and I agree that it will help.  I guess where we disagree is I don't think its the main feature of the movie -- to me its a side point not the main plot as for Haskins. I agree the complexity is a challenge but not so much because he understands some plays he just needs to learn so many more plays -- though I think that's part of it -- my point is he has to master the 101 Greek period and hone his skills.  

[RandyHolt]

47 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I follow you want to put this on Jay.  But Haskins IMO is raw,....

 

No doubt Haskins is raw.

 

What about Keenum... how in the world did he not beat out Colt?  I thought for sure he would be our starter.  And only is our starter, because of injury.  Jay even went so far to say its Colt's job when healthy.  That means Case is still struggling.

 

I wish someone would ask numerous QBs about playbooks relative to success rates within said systems. It seems most coaches prefer complex systems. I think what is happening, is that a long tenured coach is constantly adding to his playbook, to not be predictable.  But suspect they are not purging out the old, because dammit those are plays I designed and love and may need some day. Their new QB predictably, suffers.

 

I feel like there should be an industry wide accepted playbook size. We don't even know what the norm is. 500 plays, 500 pages with 4 plays per page? What is it.  Is there standardized terminology, or is every team totally different?

 

For the betterment of the game and success rates of QB's, can't teams keep things on the simple/standardized side, and still score? The quality of play fans get to see is a part of good entertainment. No one wants to watch a disorganized feeble inept sloppy offense.  Sure some old schoolers love a defensive struggle, but the league wants scoring and their rule changes over the years prove this. Do we want to watch a Miami Arizona 0-0 tie on Monday night, or a Brady vs Mahomes 51-50 shootout.

 

If Case cannot digest Jay's system, dare I say its too complicated.

 

Can anyone watch this video and think getting hit 5 times a game is the hardest thing for a young QB to overcome?

 

 

[profusion]

17 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

Peyton, Cam, Luck, Watson, Carr, & Wentz have all nearly been killed.

 

🙏

 

Not to mention that most, if not all, of them were multi-year starters in college. Haskins is a project. If he was pro-ready on day one, he wouldn't have available at the 15th pick.

[HigSkin]

 

[Burgold]

I know we don't really have a lot of choice, but part of me is annoyed that Haskins is playing in the fourth game. With McCoy injured and our fourth guy truly fodder, they have to put someone out there, but this seems more of an injury risk than learning opportunity. Maybe they'll only keep Haskins out for a quarter.

[Llevron]

12 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I know we don't really have a lot of choice, but part of me is annoyed that Haskins is playing in the fourth game. With McCoy injured and our fourth guy truly fodder, they have to put someone out there, but this seems more of an injury risk than learning opportunity. Maybe they'll only keep Haskins out for a quarter.

 

They are putting the starting line in front of him, which makes me feel better. Also a good time to get some shots on plays we don’t know he’s comfortable with yet. Try some stuff we don’t think he’s good at and get it on tape so we can teach him how to do it better type a thing. 

 

Thats what im telling myself, anyway 

[amm0409]

20 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

 

Peyton, Cam, Luck, Watson, Carr, & Wentz have all nearly been killed.

 

🙏

 

Alot of Quarterbacks that didnt start right away have nearly been killed or careers have ended because of injury whats the point

[bakedtater1]

Play a whole game tonight...through first 5 weeks we are 1-4 partially due to qb play ya start the rookie..Case closed....dooohhh lol

[Chachie]

2 hours ago, amm0409 said:

 

Alot of Quarterbacks that didnt start right away have nearly been killed or careers have ended because of injury whats the point

 

 

 

For me the point is our offensive line. It's really just about protection. The o-lines for most of the mentions in @volsmet's list were not very good. I'd like to bolster up (or at least get Trent back) before we start our journey with Dwayne. Granted, the right side of our line looks solid but without Trent, we could get this kid squashed in 6 games or less.

 

I won't go full campaign for sitting Haskins and I'd be happy to be proven wrong but I'm all for keeping him "safe" until qet know we have a winning formula in DC, which we just haven't had for... ages.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

What about Keenum... how in the world did he not beat out Colt?  I thought for sure he would be our starter.  And only is our starter, because of injury.  Jay even went so far to say its Colt's job when healthy.  That means Case is still struggling.

 

If Case cannot digest Jay's system, dare I say its too complicated.

 

 

What makes Case so special?   We got no idea if Case is struggling to master Jay's system unless am missing a report.   There is a process for any QB to learn a system but I am doubting Case is particularly confounded by Jay's offense.   Case actually said that he loves Jay's system.    It's tough for me to escape my own eyes watching Case, and he just looked to me like a JAG QB when I watched the 5 practices.  I don't think that had anything to do with Case being confused about Jay's system.  He just seem sketchy with his accuracy and I got into specifics about it back at the time. 

 

The cool thing about watching practice is you can see the same play duplicated again and again in exercises.  I mentioned back when I was in Richmond that the only Qb who seem to be able to throw a ball in the flat with consistency and who could lead the receiver with the ball was Colt.  And I am pretty established on this board as not being a dude who thinks that highly of Colt's abilities.  I even said at the time that I hate to say this but Colt simply seemed more accurate than the other 2 albeit Colt didn't look that hot on the aggregate.   Colt and Keenum would be backups for most teams at this stage of their careers.  And there is an obvious reason for that. 

 

Andy Dalton jumped into Jay's system as a rookie and did decently.  I have questioned Jay's play calling as for how he sequences plays.  But the dude played QB. He is not an idiot so if there was a simple way to make Haskins excel from day 1 like just simplifying the offense -- I'd assume he'd be on it.  He has started a rookie Qb before.  Kirk arguably was better in his system than Shanny's or Minny's last year.   He can improve his play calling but I don't think he'd be a lost puppy as to how to develop a QB. 

 

But let's take Jay out of the equation.  We've read multiple reports that O'Connell specifically is working closely with Haskins.  He spelled out in one interview that he has a process in mind to develop Haskins over the long term and he's spoken to Haskins' ex-college coach multiple times about the subject.  O'Connell and Day are close.   It seems like people close to Haskins don't want him to start.  Heck Haskins himself in interviews alluded to not wanting to start right away by saying it's a process and when he jumps into play he wants to excel right away or something like that.

 

I think you got an outlier position on Haskins.  I am not saying you are wrong.  I got no idea.  But my gut is Haskins is being properly monitored.  Whether it was the WP article or beat guys talking about the subject -- they all said that everyone in the building is in agreement about Haskins not being ready to start.  And I am getting the impression that O'Connell is very involved in the process so if you have some concern about how this is being approached, I think you got to sweep O'Connell too into your beef about this.  

 

https://www.redskins.com/news/case-keenum-loves-the-redskins-system-now-he-s-learning-the-finer-details

“I love this system, I really do,” Keenum said. “I think Jay [Gruden] has done a great job putting it together, and I think Kev [Kevin O’Connell], Cav [Matt Cavanaugh], Tim [Rattay], all those guys, too. I think it’s really well presented and put together really good. I think I can thrive in it. 

[RWJ]

Skins are taking a risk by letting their 1st round pick #15 overall play most if not the entire game tonight.  Personally, I think maybe the 1st Q or 2 then put in your camp body QB if we have one.  I don't want to see Haskins get injured or roughed up behind a less than average OL.

[Llevron]

16 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Skins are taking a risk by letting their 1st round pick #15 overall play most if not the entire game tonight.  Personally, I think maybe the 1st Q or 2 then put in your camp body QB if we have one.  I don't want to see Haskins get injured or roughed up behind a less than average OL.

 

I think he gets pulled if it’s obvious he can’t protect himself. 

 

Also so I think the idea behind sitting him is not as much MUST PROTECT but much more give him as many tools to protect himself as possible. I could be way off, but I feel like the point of sitting him until he is “ready” not throwing him out there to sink or swim but giving him as many life vests as possible to help him float a bit better before the waves hit. 

[Cantankerous]

I think DH plays really well tonight and shows off his tools that made him a superstar at Thee Ohio State - IF the Oline allows him time.  ...IF.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

5 minutes ago, Cantankerous said:

I think DH plays really well tonight and shows off his tools that made him a superstar at Thee Ohio State - IF the Oline allows him time.  ...IF.  

 

I'm hoping to see some plays called for Haskins where his targets and reads are closer in instead of like 15 yards down the field.  No offense in the NFL is like that.  I understand wanting to see exactly what his arm can do, but I'd like to see what Haskins can do when he gets into a really good rhythm.

[MartinC]

7 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

 

 

If Case cannot digest Jay's system, dare I say its too complicated.

 

Can anyone watch this video and think getting hit 5 times a game is the hardest thing for a young QB to overcome?

 

 

 

What the video is talking about is the difference between knowing something and being in command of something. I can speak a bit of German - not used it for years and I lose more and more but when I COULD speak it I had to THINK what I was saying in English and translate it in my head into German. It was a conscious process. When you are fluent in that language its all subconscious. They say you really know a language when you think in that language.

 

The subconscious mind is a very powerful thing. Subconscious instructions from the brain actually trigger faster responses from the body than conscious thought (in a quick draw type gun fight the guy who draws SECOND normally wins - because his reaction is triggered by his subconscious to the conscious action of the guy who draws first). When athletes talk of 'being in the zone' that's what they are describing - subconscious actions where they are acting based on instinct and not having to think about what they are doing.

 

Learning the language and being able to regurgitate it is probably not THAT difficult. Just a matter of study and repetition. Plus like learning languages once you have learned one learning another is probably easier. But REALLY knowing it, being fluent in that system so you can just play rather than have to think - I've heard it said that its a two year process to really know an offense and possibly longer to have full command of it.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Fresh8686]

17 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

What the video is talking about is the difference between knowing something and being in command of something. I can speak a bit of German - not used it for years and I lose more and more but when I COULD speak it I had to THINK what I was saying in English and translate it in my head into German. It was a conscious process. When you are fluent in that language its all subconscious. They say you really know a language when you think in that language.

 

The subconscious mind is a very powerful thing. Subconscious instructions from the brain actually trigger faster responses from the body than conscious thought (in a quick draw type gun fight the guy who draws SECOND normally wins - because his reaction is triggered by his subconscious to the conscious action of the guy who draws first). When athletes talk of 'being in the zone' that's what they are describing - subconscious actions where they are acting based on instinct and not having to think about what they are doing.

 

Learning the language and being able to regurgitate it is probably not THAT difficult. Just a matter of study and repetition. Plus like learning languages once you have learned one learning another is probably easier. But REALLY knowing it, being fluent in that system so you can just play rather than have to think - I've heard it said that its a two year process to really know an offense and possibly longer to have full command of it.

 

Yup, internalization of skills/capabilities past certain thresholds creates pathways of automation that are much more suitable to spurring and maintaining higher level flow states that enhance physical/cognitive performance. Those flow states are what “being in the zone really is”. 

[goskins10]

 

 

Haskins is not a petite flower. He is a pretty good sized NFL football player that also got hit in college. He needs to see some pressure. Coaches need to see how he responds. If he turns out to be glass good to know that now. 

 

The young man needs reps against NFL competition to get better. I totally get starting Case gm 1 of the regular season. But no reason not to let Haskins play at least the first half. He can't get better from the bench. He can learn the system but he can't physically get better except by playing. 

 

 

[sportjunkie07]

11 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I follow you want to put this on Jay.  But Haskins IMO is raw, I thought he was raw when I watched him in Ohio State, too and commented on it at the time.  I gather he's got footwork among other things to work on aside from just learning the plays IMO.    He's more elusive in the pocket than he looked to me at Ohio State. 

I think I mostly agree with you. 

 

Footwork, accuracy, scheme knowledge, and adjustment to nfl speed should be his major areas to improve.

 

i would agree that he looks more elusive than I expected which is great to see. He has the ability to get the ball out more quickly then I expected as well. Plus nfl arm talent seems there too, which is really nice to see.

[Fresh8686]

He can get better from the bench when it comes to internalizing the mental aspect of the game and our schemes conceptual language to the point of fluency. 

 

He can also get worse if thrown into a game without the correct fundamentals in place. He is making a lot of progress, we need to give him a bit more time. 

 

Lets not microwave his development and come out with a stunted product. Put him on the slow cooker and let his skills marinate and keep their flavor. 

[RandyHolt]

Haskins just moved up in the pocket to avoid the rush farther than I can ever remember from our more recent QBs. 

 

Yes a team can survive without a stout LT if the interior is stout.  And if the QB has the awareness to sense pressure / and step up fresh out of college.

[Commander -JB-]

People really think Colt McCoy is a viable option?  He stunk before his leg snapped like a twig.  I’m surprised they haven’t just outright cut him already to save some $

[RandyHolt]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

.........

 

But let's take Jay out of the equation.  We've read multiple reports that O'Connell specifically is working closely with Haskins.  He spelled out in one interview that he has a process in mind to develop Haskins over the long term and he's spoken to Haskins' ex-college coach multiple times about the subject.  O'Connell and Day are close.   It seems like people close to Haskins don't want him to start.  Heck Haskins himself in interviews alluded to not wanting to start right away by saying it's a process and when he jumps into play he wants to excel right away or something like that.....

 

Lots of great points in there.

 

My favorite to learn is that OCKOC is working closely with Haskins. It makes sense and its good to hear to those of us that think Kevin will be our next head coach.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

I think we over-scrutenize Haskins.  We want him to be perfect.  I think we're just desperate to have a true franchise QB with perennial playoff potential.  So desperate that were a bit irrationally afraid of screwing it up.

 

Mistakes with him are never brushed aside like other young QB's.

 

He misses a throw and we say, "this is why he's not ready, his foot wasnt quite where it should be on that throw."

 

Yet that seems odd when veteran QB's make similar mistakes and it's never brought up.

 

P.S.  Still don't want him to start Week 1.  But think Haskins is more ready than the media believes.