FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[amm0409]

Case is starting because Jay is pressed to make playoffs and Case has the experience.  Simply put his the safer choice.  There was never a QB competition if your starting one QB every pre-season game.  If its Jays first year as head coach would Case be the starting quarterback... Guess some going to still answer; Haskins aint ready

[Renegade7]

23 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

They scheduled that before the draft.  So no Haskins at that point.

 

True, but we've seen them make bets regarding matchups before, especially in regards to who's going to be good, a lot of people were starting to buy we were going to draft a QB around mid-April. Saw plenty of mocks that had Haskins dropping to us at that point.

[MartinC]

4 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Changing arm angles kind of flies in the face of the almost NFL mandated proper mechanics, right?

 

I think allowing QBs to make any throw needed to get through the play is wise.  Things don't go as planned lets just say about half the time. I want Haskins to practice all the types of throws he may need, to survive. Not worry about getting his feet set every time, to step into... a monster hit.  That is where mechanics purist coaches lead to their QBs getting Ramsey'd.

 

Getting rid the ball quickly in awkward situations and body positions avoids lots of bad plays, sacks sack fumbles INTs groundings and even injuries. Avoiding those is a valuable trait that doesn't really get any scrutiny.  Maybe one day the NFL will have an ambidextrous QB - a rollout king. Until then, we have Mahomes.

 

I don't think you will find many QB coaches anywhere at any level who tell you that the ability to throw off platform with different arm angles is not important. It's not IDEAL but everyone knows that there are situations in games that are going to occur when you will forced to throw off platform and with a less than ideal arm angle.  

 

I think this is where 'arm talent' comes in. Lots of QBs can play well in a clean pocket when they are able to make a read and step into a throw. Having the ability to make that throw under duress when you can't step into it and you maybe have to lower or move your release point to get it into a throwing lane - thats what separates a Favre, Mahomes, Brady, Peyton, Steve Young etc. 

 

But thats why its important to know where the pressure is coming from, where your hot read is, where you can go with the ball if you have to make that kind of off platform throw. Where you CAN'T go and when it's time to just get rid or take the sack. It's part of how you protect yourself and the ball as a QB. Haskins is still learning this in this offense and at NFL game speed (which he has not seen yet).

[amm0409]

Arguably Case is still learning this offense as well 

[MartinC]

2 minutes ago, amm0409 said:

Arguably Case is still learning this offense as well 

 

Agreed but he has seen NFL game speed, fronts and coverages. He only has one side of the learning curve Haskins has. 

[KDawg]

Just now, MartinC said:

 

Agreed but he has seen NFL game speed, fronts and coverages. He only has one side of the learning curve Haskins has. 

 

It's like hiring someone where you work...

 

You can hire someone straight from college, who clearly has potential, but has never worked a day in his life and will need some time to come to speed...

 

Or you can hire someone who has done 80% of the job before but has to learn some new software and some extra responsibilities he's never done, but comes recommended as being good at what he does.

 

Both are good choices. One is better in the short term. One is better in the long term.

[amm0409]

27 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Agreed but he has seen NFL game speed, fronts and coverages. He only has one side of the learning curve Haskins has. 

 

I get that as well.  To me its a safe bet to play Case, but certainly debatable why haskins should or shouldnt start.  Unfortunately, even jay said "If we miss the playoffs I wont be here next year."  Heck, its even debatable if Haskins would be second or third string if Colt was healthy, not only because of that but they like Colt.

 

 

If long term solution is Haskins then theres no reason not to start him (unless your pressed for wins and dont want to deal with growing pains right away).  He will learn some things on the sidelines, but you can only learn from your mistakes with experience.

 

Sitting him or Starting him; theres no proof whether not its going to make him a star or not.  both ways have succeeded and failed

 

[MartinC]

58 minutes ago, amm0409 said:

Sitting him or Starting him; theres no proof whether not its going to make him a star or not.  both ways have succeeded and failed

 

This is the key right here. There is no magic bullet or blueprint on how you develop a rookie QB. Being a successful NFL QB is really really hard and the physical talent is one of the least important parts of what makes a successful QB (although you have to have a base level of physical ability to even be in the conversation). It seems like Haskins has his head screwed on - seems like a hard worker and someone willing to do the grind and put in the time it's going to take. 

 

He has a chance. 

 

Start or sit - it's all good as long as which ever approach you take works 🙂

[Sonny9TD]

Just watched Ohio State tape and Haskins only completed passes if they were wide open. Under thrown balls were the norm. Accuracy was hit and miss and he stared down receivers constantly. Never saw him him look one way and then throw to the other. His only assist is a big arm. He is going to get picked off and miss passes when they need him most.  I don't see him making it. Hope I'm wrong for the Redskins sake but I don't see it. I see him making a few good passes going down the field then he will miss because of accuracy or get picked off. He will do good for a few passes but the consistency will not hold up and he will miss or throw a pick right when you need him not to. Watching him at Ohio State with all that talent and time in the pocket and he still ha to be helped out by the receivers making serious adjustments I don't see him him being successful. A damn shame too for a first round pick. But hey time will tell. Hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am. Hoping Case Keenum makes the Pro Bowl. Ba haha

[Fresh8686]

12 minutes ago, Sonny9TD said:

Just watched Ohio State tape and Haskins only completed passes if they were wide open. Under thrown balls were the norm. Accuracy was hit and miss and he stared down receivers constantly. Never saw him him look one way and then throw to the other. His only assist is a big arm. He is going to get picked off and miss passes when they need him most.  I don't see him making it. Hope I'm wrong for the Redskins sake but I don't see it. I see him making a few good passes going down the field then he will miss because of accuracy or get picked off. He will do good for a few passes but the consistency will not hold up and he will miss or throw a pick right when you need him not to. Watching him at Ohio State with all that talent and time in the pocket and he still ha to be helped out by the receivers making serious adjustments I don't see him him being successful. A damn shame too for a first round pick. But hey time will tell. Hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

 

I remeber a couple touchdowns off-hand where he definitely looked off the safety to open up a post route. I believe there is even a video where he broke down his own plays and specifically mentioned it. 

[Sonny9TD]

3 hours ago, Fresh8686 said:

 

I remeber a couple touchdowns off-hand where he definitely looked off the safety to open up a post route. I believe there is even a video where he broke down his own plays and specifically mentioned it. 

Well all QB know not to do that but game time is the proof. We'll see.

[RandyHolt]

3 hours ago, Sonny9TD said:

Just watched Ohio State tape and Haskins only completed passes if...

Thanks for sharing what you saw even if it was a debbie downer.  Did he go 50 for 250 with 50 TDs?

 

Joking aside it seemed like you could have been also describing Alex Smith last year. Less the 50 TDs of course. I called him drunk Alex.  QBs "miss" when in reality they are often avoiding unneeded risks presume as a coach directive. Sorry Ghost Rider the patterns full.

 

Even with any ugly play last year Haskins is a student of the game and has shown nothing but working hard and wanting to improve. And Jay loves his QBs to fire it and take risks.  Which is a flaw in his love for McCoy who doesn't bring the heat needed for tight window throws. Nor Alex, who I think had THE league low TWT number in his glory year 2017.  Talking about only passing to open WRs... it works for him.

[RandyHolt]

I found a depth chart at ourlads but down below is a lengthy predraft write up on Dwayne to anyone interested. Only good things to say, it seems. Who like weaknesses.

 

https://www.ourlads.com/nfldepthcharts/depthchart/WAS

[Skinsinparadise]

Keim

 

QUARTERBACK (3): Case Keenum, Colt McCoy, Dwayne Haskins

Keenum will start the season, but once McCoy strengthens his right leg -- the one he broke last December -- then he could end up with the job. Haskins, the 2019 15th overall pick, will be allowed to develop on the bench and some at Redskins Park would like to see him sit all season. They don't want to rush him, knowing how much he still must learn. That's also why they won't go with just two quarterbacks.

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/38908/redskins-53-man-roster-does-not-include-pro-bowler-trent-williams

[profusion]

22 hours ago, amm0409 said:

 

If long term solution is Haskins then theres no reason not to start him (unless your pressed for wins and dont want to deal with growing pains right away).  He will learn some things on the sidelines, but you can only learn from your mistakes with experience.

 

 

I disagree in this context. The experiences of David Carr and Tim Couch suggest that throwing a raw rookie QB to the wolves on a team with a bad OL and substandard WRs could destroy their potential.

 

If the Redskins had a playoff-caliber offense in place, I'd be willing to let Haskins grow into the role on the field.

[Skinsinparadise]

On Haskins my main thought is I want to handle this anyway the coaches do.  My #1 thing is what's best for Haskins. 

 

I don't agree with the point by some that Jay's win now mindset will hurt Dwayne (as if he'd otherwise start) because I don't think Haskins is ready yet.  And granted I am an amateur but it looked that way to me too when I went to camp.   

 

I am hardcore about not starting Haskins right away.  I am not opposed to starting Haskins eventually if the coaches think he's ready.  If the season goes south, I think if anything it would be Jay's self interest to start Haskins because I think the one thing that would save his job if its not a playoff year would be Haskins playing well when he plays.

 

I personally think Haskins would benefit from playing some eventually this season.  I don't really have a hard opinion as to when though.  But if Jay or whomever doesn't think its a good idea, I am cool with that too. 

 

Haskins is not yet ready to start a regular season game. Washington’s coaches are in agreement about this. He did, after all, start just one season in college at Ohio State and the Redskins offense is a complicated one for newcomers to master. Everyone has been patient with him. Washington’s coaches also seem happy with his steady development.

Montez Sweat has big-time talent. His Redskins’ teammates are teaching him the little things.

 

One of the biggest things coaches look for in young quarterbacks is enthusiasm. Is the new player excited to learn? Is he engaged in meetings, asking questions and diligent in his preparation? As they got to know Haskins, the Redskins coaches noticed he quickly absorbed the playbook and the skills they were teaching.

Early in camp, Tim Rattay, the team’s new quarterback coach, noticed Haskins seemed discouraged, and so he said: “Let’s pick it up.” Haskins quickly responded, and Rattay realized that Haskins loves to compete — which, in the end, is exactly what coaches want from their quarterback, regardless of which plays aren’t going right.

 

“Part of the problem is you have to expose guys to some struggles early on so that they can see how hard of a position it’s going to be,” offensive coordinator Kevin O’Connell said at the end of training camp. “It almost ignites a work ethic and an understanding of: ‘I better do everything in my power to put this offense in the best possible position, and how do I do that?' It’s being prepared every single day.”

 

Haskins’s performances in preseason games have been mixed. He has made some spectacular throws, like the 55-yard touchdown pass to Robert Davis in the team’s second preseason game or a perfectly placed 21-yard toss to rookie wide receiver Kelvin Harmon last week in Atlanta. But he also has missed high or long on several throws, which still speaks to his inexperience. He has completed 22 of 41 passes for 305 yards and a touchdown against two interceptions. They aren’t spectacular numbers, but are mostly what his coaches expect from someone in his position.

 

Through the offseason workouts and the first weeks of training camp, the Redskins coaches watched Haskins closely in meetings, looking to see how much he retained the things that had been taught the previous day. If they had to reteach those lessons, it would signal a problem for the regular season, when the playbook changes with each week, depending on the opponent. But that hasn’t been an issue.

[skinny21]

22 hours ago, amm0409 said:

 

I get that as well.  To me its a safe bet to play Case, but certainly debatable why haskins should or shouldnt start.  Unfortunately, even jay said "If we miss the playoffs I wont be here next year."  Heck, its even debatable if Haskins would be second or third string if Colt was healthy, not only because of that but they like Colt.

 

 

If long term solution is Haskins then theres no reason not to start him (unless your pressed for wins and dont want to deal with growing pains right away).  He will learn some things on the sidelines, but you can only learn from your mistakes with experience.

 

Sitting him or Starting him; theres no proof whether not its going to make him a star or not.  both ways have succeeded and failed

 

Thing is, Haskins can learn a lot by sitting.  It’s essentially a matter of how much is on his plate.  If he’s calling the wrong protection and getting pressured immediately, it’s a lot harder for him to evaluate (real time) if he was making the right read, if the receiver was at the right depth, if the corner/safety were shading a certain way, etc.  Obviously that’s just one example.  Footwork is another one - if it’s become ingrained, his brain can focus on other aspects.  If he’s thinking about getting his footwork just right as he’s dropping back or sliding in the pocket, it can lead to less focus on the defense/receiver/etc.  So arguably, the more he has down pat ahead of time, the more he can focus on the variables he can pick up from live experience.  

 

With that said, I feel like a lot of it also comes down (IMO) to what kind of learner he is.  For example, my wife prefers to learn as she goes - to get thrown into the fire.  I prefer to learn all I can before diving in.  Don’t know which type Haskins is, though I do have a feeling it’s the former.  

[amm0409]

3 hours ago, profusion said:

 

I disagree in this context. The experiences of David Carr and Tim Couch suggest that throwing a raw rookie QB to the wolves on a team with a bad OL and substandard WRs could destroy their potential.

 

If the Redskins had a playoff-caliber offense in place, I'd be willing to let Haskins grow into the role on the field.

 

Peyton

Matt Ryan

Russell

Wentz

Dalton

Derek Carr

Cam

Luck

 

Theres no proof if starting a rookie QB or letting him sit is the better idea (no matter what, its opinion based).  We all know Jay had to win NOW and because of that no matter how well Haskins performed in practice or pre-season, Case or Colt would start (mostly due to experience)

 

And if you think the Redskins OL absolutely SUCKS then why play any quarterback for that matter or not even play Haskins at all this year even if we loose 5+ straight

[volsmet]

6 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Thing is, Haskins can learn a lot by sitting.  

 

DH learned while sitting in college & nearly turned his first year starting into a Heisman trophy without having the 4.4 speed of a guy like Kyler. DH nearly won it from the pocket, in his first year starting, after years of sitting behind QBs who had a different skill set than his. 

 

You can learn from the bench, but you can’t learn much when you’re hurt. 

2 hours ago, amm0409 said:

 

Peyton

Matt Ryan

Russell

Wentz

Dalton

Derek Carr

Cam

Luck

 

Peyton, Cam, Luck, Watson, Carr, & Wentz have all nearly been killed.

 

🙏

[RandyHolt]

This is what I feared would be the case

 

"Redskins offense is a complicated one for newcomers to master. " Vunderball

 

I figured Jay's offense was complicated but those things rarely gets any discussion so I wasn't sure.

 

I feel those things are at the root of young QBs failing yet the focus seems to be solely on hits taken, and how many games did they watch.

 

Call me crazy but I think Jay's best chance at saving his job is using Dwayne.  Roll the dice after 4 weeks of coinflip games and 150 yard passing outings.  Run a simplified but unpredictable run heavy PA offense. Go unorthodox and pass on first and run on later downs. Even cooley said it Jay needs to simplify the terminology - at least early in the season. I bet Flowers Martin Penn and the new WRs would benefit.  I sure hope when a coach gets X new players that he dumbs that bible down. It may explain how he always loses his first game heh.

 

I think Defenses will be on their heels when he gets in there.  Then they will blitz heavy, and Jay should be ready for this.

[volsmet]

Jay won’t get fired if DH is playing well by years end. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Haskins himself has given away in multiple interviews why it helps him to watch for awhile.    Among other things, one thing that has continually been stressed is mastering the terminology and looks of the offense including understanding how to match protections to different defensive formations.  The more time he has the easier it will be for him to master it because the power of time will allow him to bank it in his brain where it becomes more automatic.

 

It's like someone coming to us and saying you got 2 weeks to study Algebra and master certain concepts or 10 weeks.  If we are the studious types (which Haskins seems to be) we are going to do a lot better on that exam when we have all that extra time to master it.

 

Obviously there are other things in the soup aside from that.  But just giving him the extra time for visualization-memorization should make it easier for him once he gets a chance -- let alone watch veterans prepare for the games and deal with it all.  Haskins said in Ohio State he'd visualize how he'd deal with every play while he was watching from the bench and that helped him hit the ground running when he finally had his shot. 

[RandyHolt]

Yep It may be akin to asking a mathematician to teach whatever they can in X number of months to a bunch of students he hasn't taught before. He is throwing calculus at them in week 1.  Its not just Haskins learning terminology and plays, its everyone. A few key guys that struggle will end up holding everyone back. 

 

Jay needs to be on point in finding a reasonable playbook size and simplified terminology if he expects Keenum/Dwayne Harmon McLaurin Quinn Davis Sims Penn Martin Geron Flowers and Guice to all be on the same page from week 1.  I call bunk that a coach needs an insane number of plays in his playbook, to run successful plays. Its also using players strengths, not being predictable, running plays all the guys know but from different looks; deception.

 

Eventually, too many plays is just that. There is a fine line needed and even without starting Haskins, think many guys on O can stand to benefit with the playbook eased in.  Keenum 6 teams in 7 years his head is probably spinning still. Heck Its apparently still Colt's job. 

 

I think I now know why.

[Skinsinparadise]

11 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Keenum 6 teams in 7 years his head is probably spinning still. Heck Its apparently still Colt's job. 

 

I think I now know why.

 

I don't get the impression though too many plays though is the #1 challenge.  It seems more like understanding the Algebra period is the drill. The whole process of running the huddle, calling the protection, calling the play, positioning the players, etc - that's not for the most part what Haskins had to do in Ohio State according to those who have spoken on it.  Part of the reason for example Andrew Luck was so pro ready wasn't a simplified system but that he was used to running a pro style system in college.  For Haskins he's learning a new language.  As Keenum said he knows Spanish, learning Jay's system is Portuguese so its an adjustment but its not that hard.  For Haskins he's learning Spanish mostly from scratch.  

[KDawg]

14 hours ago, volsmet said:

Jay won’t get fired if DH is playing well by years end. 

 

 

This is a point I'm surprised doesn't get made more often.

 

Starting him now is a mistake for Jay to retain his job if there's even a shred of thought he may not be ready... Because if/when Haskins does play, if he does well, Jay retains his job. There isn't even an argument there unless the team assumes Tim Rattay is the reason. And knowing Allen that means Rattay will be the next HC.

 

If Keenum plays and the team wins, Jay keeps his job.

 

The only way Jay loses his job this year is if he jumps the gun and Haskins stinks.