FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Morrison J]

1 minute ago, Art said:

 

Can't align on this.

 

Alex Smith was the Top Pick in the draft who got there on his athletic ability and he ran a ton.   Like over 10 times a game ton.   Haskins has a better arm than Smith coming out or now.   Haskins ran 79 times in 14 games.   Like Ben who ran 67 times in 14 games in his final year.   Haskins is much more like Ben in terms of play style than he is like Smith.   Ben is taller and thicker though and more athletic though at this point probably not :).

 

You are not wrong to say that Haskins is not as polished as Ben was coming out of school under pressure situations.   Ben had 38 games and 1304 pass attempts in college.   Haskins had 590 pass attempts and 22 games.   Ben had more experience in college developing that which is why people do say you should maybe let Haskins spend a bit of time continuing his development on the bench where Ben was a ready-made starter.   I will say this though, Haskins got better and better as his experience developed to the point he ENDED his year with three games against ranked opponents where he played the best football of his career.   Maybe he's on the upswing :).   

I described Haskins in the draft thread as Alex Smith if Alex Smith didn't have his mobility to draw on. Both are hesitant to throw into tight windows or to throw deep. Neither are the type to carve up defenses with their arm.

 

Haskins doesn't really possess any of the tools that makes Ben great at all. 

[Going Commando]

5 minutes ago, Morrison J said:

I described Haskins in the draft thread as Alex Smith if Alex Smith didn't have his mobility to draw on. Both are hesitant to throw into tight windows or to throw deep. Neither are the type to carve up defenses with their arm.

  

Haskins doesn't really possess any of the tools that makes Ben great at all.  

 

Good Lord man, this take is way off.  There is almost no similarity between Haskins and Smith whatsoever.  Haskins's film is littered with big time throws every game.  He is absolutely a precision passer who will throw NFL windows with confidence, and who carved up some of the best pass defenses in the country from the pocket.

[Warhead36]

6 minutes ago, Morrison J said:

I described Haskins in the draft thread as Alex Smith if Alex Smith didn't have his mobility to draw on. Both are hesitant to throw into tight windows or to throw deep. Neither are the type to carve up defenses with their arm.

 

Haskins doesn't really possess any of the tools that makes Ben great at all. 

I don't know if this is better or worse than the lazy Haskins is Jamarcus Russell comparisons...

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

The guys who think they can evaluate NFL quarterbacks by reading their body language are a trip.

[Destino]

29 minutes ago, Morrison J said:

He's much more Alex Smith than he is Big Ben. Big Ben can throw deep, is elusive in the pocket and is comfortable under pressure. Haskins has none of those traits as of yet. Honestly, the only thing he has in common with Ben is body type really. 

I do not see the alex smith comparison at all.  Alex is mobile, likes to run, and lacks a strong arm.  Haskins is a pocket passer with a canon growing out of his shoulder.  

 

All of these arguments meaningless to me.  There has never been a means of scouting QBs that has proven reliable enough to replicate consistently.  All we can do is see if they have the physical tools, watch the tape on how the handled pressure, and try to divine their character and work ethic.  The trial comes after they’ve been drafted.  Do they have the mental quickness to be able to process the game at NFL speed?  

 

I’m satisfied with Haskins potential in terms of what he put on tape.  I’ve seen better, and I’ve seen worse, turn into good nfl pros.  I’ve seen them fail as well.  All I can do now is hope for the best and wait to to see what happens when he gets some nfl snaps.

[Art]

14 minutes ago, Morrison J said:

I described Haskins in the draft thread as Alex Smith if Alex Smith didn't have his mobility to draw on. Both are hesitant to throw into tight windows or to throw deep. Neither are the type to carve up defenses with their arm.

 

Haskins doesn't really possess any of the tools that makes Ben great at all. 

 

I think you're saying something interesting and utilizing hindsight as to what Ben has become more than what Ben was leaving college and what Haskins was leaving college.   They are very similarly ranked prospects with the edge going to Haskins as far as I can tell.   Ben had minimal big football experience so his numbers, while inflated, were nothing in comparison to Haskins.   Ben was more willing to throw into tight windows, and probably remains so, which is why he threw and throws more interceptions than Haskins did throw or projects to throw.   However, someone posted this earlier and I would ask you to watch all of it, especially the second throw:
 

Very clearly Haskins knew he risked an int throwing into one window and threw into another.   Perhaps Haskins is just smarter than Ben was coming out.   Ben does have moxie and grit.   He's a wonderful player as he's shown over many, many years.   But while one could suggest Haskins lacks all of the traits Ben has that has proven to help Ben be a great player, he certainly has traits that would lend to being a great player potentially.   He could also fail.   I don't know.   I know you don't know.   The only difference is you seem to suggest it's a conclusion already reached as if you know something no one else does.

 

Let's also say this, for a QB who "doesn't throw deep", Haskins had a superior yards per attempt to Ben in college even though Ben was throwing against kids.   That accuracy allowing YAC is no joke on Haskins right?   Montana didn't have Ben's traits but he was also great and was so perfectly accurate.   I wonder if accuracy is a trait that could lead to greatness then?   Also, if Haskins stayed at OSU another year and did ANYTHING like he did this year, he's the No. 1 or No. 2 pick in next year's draft and the downside of his relative lack of experience is shed.

 

Again, I don't love Haskins and am not sold on Haskins.   But it's impossible to suggest his future is already written when there are MORE signs it has some positive aspect than the signs it has a negative aspect based on his body of work to this point as a player.

[Morrison J]

Just now, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Good Lord man, this take is way off.  There is almost no similarity between Haskins and Smith whatsoever.  Haskins's film is littered with big time throws every game.  He is absolutely a precision passer who will throw NFL windows with confidence, and who carved up some of the best pass defenses in the country from the pocket.

I'm just obviously watching a completely different prospect to what you are tbh. Not saying Haskins and Smith are identical by any means but there are loads of comparisons. 

 

Both are clearly smart guys who can read the field. 

 

Both don't throw deep downfield with any regularity and have accuracy issues when they do.

 

Both excel when throwing at medium range.

 

Both lack poise in the pocket when the only options they have are deep balls or balls put into tight windows.

 

Both tend to come undone when pressured down the middle (Haskins more so than Smith though). 

 

The big difference is that Smith is a far better athlete and can use his legs to get himself out of bother. Haskins doesn't have that athleticism. 

 

Similarities between Haskins and Big Ben? **** all bar their body types tbh. They don't play a similar style at all.

7 minutes ago, Destino said:

I do not see the alex smith comparison at all.  Alex is mobile, likes to run, and lacks a strong arm.  Haskins is a pocket passer with a canon growing out of his shoulder.  

Haskins definitely does not have a canon growing out of his shoulder. Decent zip on medium range throws but theres loads of times on his tape where he gets way too much air under his vertical throws. He's not a natural big armed, deep thrower from the pocket like Big Ben for example. No way.

[Llevron]

4 minutes ago, Morrison J said:

Both don't throw deep downfield with any regularity and have accuracy issues when they do.

 

This just isnt true, though. Thats the argument. 

 

4 minutes ago, Morrison J said:

Both lack poise in the pocket when the only options they have are deep balls or balls put into tight windows.

 

Again, show us someone making this observation cause I have only seen the opposite as far as his deep throwing is concerned. 

[Destino]

17 minutes ago, Morrison J said:

Haskins definitely does not have a canon growing out of his shoulder. Decent zip on medium range throws but theres loads of times on his tape where he gets way too much air under his vertical throws. He's not a natural big armed, deep thrower from the pocket like Big Ben for example. No way.

 

Arm strength to me is measured by how much effort goes into creating velocity.  Even so called weak armed QBs will, when occasion allows it, fully engage their lower body and fire off a fast ball.  Haskins flicks his wrist to create that same zip.  He doesn’t need to have his feet set, there is no wind up, and he generates velocity.  He needs to work on his deep ball, but from the videos I’ve seen the guy has a very powerful arm.  Not the most powerful arm.  I don’t think he has more power than Mahomes, for example, but powerful none the less.

[Morrison J]

3 minutes ago, Destino said:

 

Arm strength to me is measured by how much effort goes into creating velocity.  Even so called weak armed QBs will, when occasion allows it, fully engage their lower body and fire off a fast ball.  Haskins flicks his wrist to create that same zip.  He doesn’t need to have his feet set, there is no wind up, and he generates velocity.  He needs to work on his deep ball, but from the videos I’ve seen the guy has a very powerful arm.  Not the most powerful arm, I don’t think he’s got more power than Mahomes for example, but powerful none the less.

Don't get me wrong I'm not concerned by his arm strength at all. I'm just saying in comparison to a Big Ben it's not at that level of natural arm strength. 

 

Feel like Haskins had one Big Ben-esque play in his entire career and people have seen that, his big upper body and concluded that he's like Big Ben. Not the case at all. 

 

This play is an outlier. Big Ben does this numerous times a game, remember that.

 

 

[Morrison J]

29 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

This just isnt true, though. Thats the argument. 

 

 

Again, show us someone making this observation cause I have only seen the opposite as far as his deep throwing is concerned. 

TOO MUCH AIR.

 

The other thing that Big Ben does better at is that his mechanics don't fall apart like Haskins' does. Ben can find the safe area of the pocket, plant his feet and find his target (or he has the natural touch to find his receiver on the fly anyway).

 

Haskins doesn't have the feet/poise when hurried and his mechanics take a hit as a result (see last two videos)

 

 

 

 

 

Another example of his mechanics going to pot when he feels pressure. This time a mid range throw.

 

 

 

[Morrison J]

Yeah this is so Big Ben. Nahh 🤣🤣

 

 

[Art]

Morrison.   I think I'd merely ask you to reflect a moment.   You clearly have an opinion best described as singular in nature.   It's one not shared by anyone, anywhere.   It's a comparison no one has even contemplated on any level from fan to front office to analyst.   Every single person in response is begging you to think about what you're doing.   Yes, you're right, Ben is a more natural gunslinger with a game that throws deep a ton than most people in football history.   I'll go into this in a moment, but, while accurate that Haskins doesn't either throw the ball deep as often as Ben does as a pro, and Ben's excellence is his magic play extension, the fact remains Haskins has much more in common with Ben's remaining skills than he does Alex Smith's mindset or skillset.   That does not mean he projects to be like Ben as he does not.  But he WAY does not project out to Smith.

 

I think you mistake Haskins deep throw numbers for a timid guy in an offense he shredded people with against defenses designed to take the deep ball away leaving openings elsewhere and he effectively picked the right guy a ton.   That said, on deep throws, Ben is great.    Last year Alex Smith had 3.9 deep ball attempts per game and averaged 8.3 yards averaged in ball travel distance, or ball depth stats, which means yards the ball traveled in the air.   Ben had 5.3 deep ball attempts per game which was third in the league, but averaged only 8.1 yards averaged in ball travel distance.   LESS than Smith.   He was, overall, the No. 1 player in the total yards in this category, but his attempts were less than Smith, who doesn't take chances.

The point of this is Ben is a LOT more like Haskins, AND Smith, than you seem to think.   He LIVES off short passes with deep balls thrown in to OPEN up the short game.   And the fact he needed 42.2 pass attempts a game to average 5.2 deep passes a game, while Smith was 1.3 deep passes attempted per game behind him on just 32.8 (9.6 fewer) passes attempted per game may suggest perception is not always the rule even there.

Ben is a great player.   Haskins doesn't have his mentality.   Ben's mentality is NOT the only mentality to make a winner.   Tom Brady has ZERO of Ben's traits.   And is a far superior player.   Haskins has a lot of those traits in how he attacks a team.   And we PRAY he has a smidge of Brady's decision making and smarts to make that matter :).

[Veretax]

4 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

yeah, I know Theismann won us our first Super Bowl and was a very good QB for us...but he has always rubbed me the wrong way. 

 

I could see him granting permission to Haskins to wear #7 for no other reason but to re-enter relevance for a news cycle. He did the same thing when Smith's leg disintegrated last year...he reveled in the comparisons. 

 

It's not a huge knock on the guy, but he LOVES attention so I anticipate that he will always act in a way that garners as much of that as possible. 

Look I respect Theismann, if I'm theismann, I tell Haskins, he doesn't need his permission, but whatever number he wears, don't try to live in the shadow of who came before, forge your own legend Dwayne.   #HTTR!

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

49 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

The guys who think they can evaluate NFL quarterbacks by reading their body language are a trip.

You would surprised how much you can learn about someone from such a thing....

I hate Colin Cowturd but i have to agree with his assessment that i like Haskins but don't Love him

[Art]

11 minutes ago, Morrison J said:

Yeah this is so Big Ben. Nahh 🤣🤣

 

 

 

A bit, yeah.

 

 

A very bit, yeah.

 

 

 

 

[Veretax]

You know what else?    Because of all the smoke from Gruden, Allen, Snyder, etc.   We tricked the Giants into taking Daniel Jones of Duke.  ROFLLMAO,, which quite possibly means a lost pick if they intend to sit him for 3 years.  Its like playing chess, and you made the opponent take a move to retreat the knight or bishop so it doesn't get taken.

First Take was hilarious to watch tonight, even Skip Bayless said we got a better QB than Daniel Jones.  Ha ha ha.  I started creating a youtube play list of fan and media reaction to the Giants pick. 

  I think we did good, now will haskins be money?  Dunno yet. but he's my QB now, and I'm rooting for him #HTTR!

[Llevron]

@Morrison J

 

I cant take the videos out of your post for some reason. 

 

So I went looking for someone saying what you are saying (which is all I was asking for) and I found PFF basically saying the same thing. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-dwayne-haskins-isnt-a-finished-product-but-still-possesses-a-valuable-skillset-worth-taking-early-in-the-draft 

 

Though I didn't read in here anything about a lack of poise in the pocket, they make note of his struggles when the pocket breaks down. They are also confident that this can be improved. They make mention of his lack of accuracy with deep throws too. So my bad for questioning you, I just had not heard the criticism. 

[JoeJacobyHOForRIOT]

1 minute ago, Veretax said:

You know what else?    Because of all the smoke from Gruden, Allen, Snyder, etc.   We tricked the Giants into taking Daniel Jones of Duke.  ROFLLMAO,, which quite possibly means a lost pick if they intend to sit him for 3 years.  Its like playing chess, and you made the opponent take a move to retreat the knight or bishop so it doesn't get taken.

Is this satire or is our front office really that clever 

[Morrison J]

4 minutes ago, Art said:

Morrison.   I think I'd merely ask you to reflect a moment.   You clearly have an opinion best described as singular in nature.   It's one not shared by anyone, anywhere.   It's a comparison no one has even contemplated on any level from fan to front office to analyst.   Every single person in response is begging you to think about what you're doing.   Yes, you're right, Ben is a more natural gunslinger with a game that throws deep a ton than most people in football history.   I'll go into this in a moment, but, while accurate that Haskins doesn't either throw the ball deep as often as Ben does as a pro, and Ben's excellence is his magic play extension, the fact remains Haskins has much more in common with Ben's remaining skills than he does Alex Smith's mindset or skillset.   That does not mean he projects to be like Ben as he does not.  But he WAY does not project out to Smith.

 

I think you mistake Haskins deep throw numbers for a timid guy in an offense he shredded people with against defenses designed to take the deep ball away leaving openings elsewhere and he effectively picked the right guy a ton.   That said, on deep throws, Ben is great.    Last year Alex Smith had 3.9 deep ball attempts per game and averaged 8.3 yards averaged in ball travel distance, or ball depth stats, which means yards the ball traveled in the air.   Ben had 5.3 deep ball attempts per game which was third in the league, but averaged only 8.1 yards averaged in ball travel distance.   LESS than Smith.   He was, overall, the No. 1 player in the total yards in this category, but his attempts were less than Smith, who doesn't take chances.

The point of this is Ben is a LOT more like Haskins, AND Smith, than you seem to think.   He LIVES off short passes with deep balls thrown in to OPEN up the short game.   And the fact he needed 42.2 pass attempts a game to average 5.2 deep passes a game, while Smith was 1.3 deep passes attempted per game behind him on just 32.8 (9.6 fewer) passes attempted per game may suggest perception is not always the rule even there.

Ben is a great player.   Haskins doesn't have his mentality.   Ben's mentality is NOT the only mentality to make a winner.   Tom Brady has ZERO of Ben's traits.   And is a far superior player.   Haskins has a lot of those traits in how he attacks a team.   And we PRAY he has a smidge of Brady's decision making and smarts to make that matter :).

Doesn't bother what others see, we all have our own opinions but I've genuinely seen more Alex Smith comps than Ben.

 

Can you make some sort of list of what Haskins and Ben have in common? You think they attack teams in a similar way? How? Haskins is a safety first QB, Big Ben really couldn't be much further from that. 

1 minute ago, Llevron said:

@Morrison J

 

I cant take the videos out of your post for some reason. 

 

So I went looking for someone saying what you are saying (which is all I was asking for) and I found PFF basically saying the same thing. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-dwayne-haskins-isnt-a-finished-product-but-still-possesses-a-valuable-skillset-worth-taking-early-in-the-draft 

 

Though I didn't read in here anything about a lack of poise in the pocket, they make note of his struggles when the pocket breaks down. They are also confident that this can be improved. They make mention of his lack of accuracy with deep throws too. So my bad for questioning you, I just had not heard the criticism. 

No problem. The tape doesn't lie when you watch it. 

 

There are things that excite me with Haskins, don't get me wrong. Loads of it coachable too. I'd just advise we stay somewhat grounded. He's got a tonne load of flaws than need ironing out and Snyder is going to want him starting week 1 with a leaky interior O-Line in front of him. There's gonna be a lot of growing pains. 

[Larry]

So, are we all agreed that a college redshirt freshman does not possess the skill set that Ben Rothlesberger does?

[Morrison J]

2 minutes ago, Larry said:

So, are we all agreed that a college redshirt freshman does not possess the skill set that Ben Rothlesberger does?

😂

 

It's not skill set I'm talking though. it's style of QB and mentality more than anything. He's much more safety first (ie like Alex Smith) than he is gunslinger (ie Big Ben). 

 

No idea why people find that fact so crazy.

[Llevron]

2 minutes ago, Larry said:

So, are we all agreed that a college redshirt freshman does not possess the skill set that Ben Rothlesberger does?

 

You joke but this is an improvement as far as ES community conflict resolution is concerned. 

[Art]

3 minutes ago, Morrison J said:

Doesn't bother what others see, we all have our own opinions but I've genuinely seen more Alex Smith comps than Ben.

 

Can you make some sort of list of what Haskins and Ben have in common? You think they attack teams in a similar way? How? Haskins is a safety first QB, Big Ben really couldn't be much further from that. 

No problem. The tape doesn't lie when you watch it. 

 

There are things that excite me with Haskins, don't get me wrong. Loads of it coachable too. I'd just advise we stay somewhat grounded. He's got a tonne load of flaws than need ironing out and Snyder is going to want him starting week 1 with a leaky interior O-Line in front of him. There's gonna be a lot of growing pains. 

 

For clarity I said I think Haskins attacks a defense in a lot of the ways Brady does.   Which is to say he takes what's open.   Almost always.   I recall when we were in New England and Gregg Williams put his safeties 30-yards-back on a windy day in Foxborough and Sonny said, "You watch, Brady is going to play his 11 on our 9 all game."   And he did.   And he shredded us.   And he never went deep.   At Ohio State, the book on them is take away the deep ball and you can stop them.   Haskins actually spread the offense sideline to sideline and found the right matchup quite often.   In that, he's more like Brady than Ben.   No one perceives Ben as a tactician.   Though I suspect he's much more so than we credit him.   Yes, Haskins has more in common with how Ben plays than he does with Smith in that they both are generally stationary players who play almost exclusively from the pocket and have good arms to attack more areas of the field with regularity than Smith has.   Smith's game is much more movement oriented.   Ben has that magic Haskins almost certainly won't have as no one other than Ben and Russell really have it in the NFL.   My point is Ben's traits, while great, aren't the only traits to make a winner.   Haskins has a LOT of traits that could make him a far better pro than Ben ever was, without having any of Ben's.   And, of course, he could be terrible :).   Which Ben clearly hasn't been.

[Burgundy Yoda]

I've seen Haskins compared to Dan Marino. I haven't seen Dan Marino play in years so I'll have to re-watch some film. I can tell you one thing though, he plays more like Marino than Alex Smith.